Open 807 | Town Win

[Battle Mage]

And I think you're wrong on the traitor. We don't need to elim the traitor to win - elimming the last mafia wins us the game. So why would we ever focus on the traitor?

Because I'm not focusing on the traitor, I think she's scum and don't necessarily know which and don't buy your reasoning for her not being mainscum.

I think you're not buying it because it's inconvenient to you, rather than because you actually think I'm a dumbass.

"always push people that defended scum" is not "extremely narrow-minded". It should be a basic principle of mafia.

It really shouldn't! If it was, scum would literally never defend each other and would just bus and automatically win off the town cred.

Exactly - town should have an approach which allows them to control the narrative and, crucially, ANTICIPATE how scum will respond. It might not be sexy, but it's a logical and 'winning' strategy. It relies on a more consistent and structured site meta of course. But yes, completely agree that scumteams will adapt to town gameplay - and town will then adapt to respond. I suppose I'm arguing mostly for a return to first principles, because currently the approach is too ad hoc and easy for scumteams to manipulate, town winrates are much lower than they should be (although they are often assisted by scumteams who can't work together).

Independent of my view on how mafia should be approached overall, my views in this game are not "wringing all the nuance out" - quite the opposite. Me using analysis of the setup, and my understanding of players within the game is much more sophisticated, and you are the one dismissing it as inconvenient - which does not accord with your view on taking a context-based approach.

[implosion]

I don't think you're a dumbass. I think you're just simplifying things a bit. Mostly I take issue with the word "always" in your statement. But it honestly doesn't matter, it's a moot point.

[implosion]

(And now that you're explaining more I do agree you're using more nuance than I was giving credit for)

[Battle Mage]

I don't think you're a dumbass. I think you're just simplifying things a bit. Mostly I take issue with the word "always" in your statement. But it honestly doesn't matter, it's a moot point.

the simplification is by design - I think giving people a basic framework as a starting point is helpful, and then you can build from there. And you can add as much sophistry as you like. It's an interesting debate, but as you say, of limited relevance to this particular game, where - as noted - you are in fact arguing for a simplified approach, and I'm pushing for a more sophisticated one.

[Battle Mage]

if you give some credit to my judgement, and some credit that i am town, then you should presumably give some credit to my judgement (grounded in personal experience of the player) that Mini has a good chance of being town and shouldn't be top priority to elim?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

the way artemiana played her exit - makes me think this is the scum plan -

pick 2 goons, pick off the TPRs, then fake claim a TPR.

Remember the scum team knows how many TPRs they are up against

we don't

possible but i think that relies on a dominant scumbuddy who fancies themselves as a bit of a strategist. and cares more about winning than the fun of sick PRs.

literally none of the scum PRs are very good lol

[Battle Mage]

the way artemiana played her exit - makes me think this is the scum plan -

pick 2 goons, pick off the TPRs, then fake claim a TPR.

Remember the scum team knows how many TPRs they are up against

we don't

possible but i think that relies on a dominant scumbuddy who fancies themselves as a bit of a strategist. and cares more about winning than the fun of sick PRs.

literally none of the scum PRs are very good lol

pfft you're showing your age here Pooky's seen it all before!

[implosion]

You don't even think she has a "good chance of being town" - by your own admission you think she's above average likelihood to be traitor. At least, you by your own admission also think she could be scum. And like I said, I think it's fine to lim a traitor today.

If I give credit to your judgment that doesn't mean I'm going to automatically substitute your judgement for my own, and my own is that Mini's game here looks different from her town game. If everyone in the game that I trust echoes a chorus of "implosion, you're wrong on MiniMegabyte!" then sure but you're one person.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like if the scum pick a RB

and manage to block the TPR every turn - which is like the best use

that would be simpler

if they just didnt pick an RB

and the town doesnt get the TPR to begin with? lol

[implosion]

I agree it seems likely good as scum to just pick no PRs. That said I don't think it's important to really care about that until massclaim.

[implosion]

@MiniMegabyte

: if you were scum here, what power roles do you think you'd have picked, and why?

[Battle Mage]

You don't even think she has a "good chance of being town" - by your own admission you think she's above average likelihood to be traitor. At least, you by your own admission also think she could be scum. And like I said, I think it's fine to lim a traitor today.

If I give credit to your judgment that doesn't mean I'm going to automatically substitute your judgement for my own, and my own is that Mini's game here looks different from her town game. If everyone in the game that I trust echoes a chorus of "implosion, you're wrong on MiniMegabyte!" then sure but you're one person.

The traitor thing is a red herring though, given we've established we don't need to elim the traitor to win. I don't understand why you're still clutching at that particular straw. I have no interest in wasting a shot on someone who we think could be a traitor but probably isn't scum.

I'm honestly struggling to understand why you're so hung up on Mini though? Nobody has suggested you switch anybody else's judgement for your own, but there is a rationale for Mini being town which should factor in to your viewpoint, and since you believe me to be town, wouldn't it make more sense to work with me today to find consensus scum?

An observation which hasn't yet been made, is how you took such a good-faith, open-minded approach to lurker-scum Artemiana yesterday. And how that is in complete contrast to your bad-faith, fighting against the tide approach to lurker-? Mini. Can you explain?

[Battle Mage]

I agree it seems likely good as scum to just pick no PRs. That said I don't think it's important to really care about that until massclaim.

I assume you don't care because, if that was the case, it makes it even less likely Mini would be scum. Because I don't ever think a Mini-Arte scumpair decide to take no PRs at all here.

[implosion]

I think they absolutely could decide to take no PRs!

[implosion]

I'm honestly struggling to understand why you're so hung up on Mini though? Nobody has suggested you switch anybody else's judgement for your own, but there is a rationale for Mini being town which should factor in to your viewpoint, and since you believe me to be town, wouldn't it make more sense to work with me today to find consensus scum?

Pretty hard to work with you when you're voting me, talking past my arguments, and saying I should blindly listen to yours.

[implosion]

Like I don't understand how I'm supposed to work with you when I'm your primary suspect. The first step to that would be to convince you that I'm town, which you're seemingly quite convinced is not the case.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Implo your character in the fanfiction I am writing for this game is going to be "Random Drunk Dude"

I am willing to accept something else if you want.

[implosion]

how about "Random Drunk Dude with a Persecution Complex"

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

that's too long and would not fit well at all.

[Battle Mage]

Like I don't understand how I'm supposed to work with you when I'm your primary suspect. The first step to that would be to convince you that I'm town, which you're seemingly quite convinced is not the case.

if you weren't tunnelling someone I think is probably town, I'm sure I'd see you in a more favourable light. And perhaps as importantly you'd become somebody useful and viable to work with. I have other suspects.

[Battle Mage]

I think they absolutely could decide to take no PRs!

Do you know them both well? You've implied so far that you don't, so I'm struggling to buy this.

[implosion]

It's less about knowing them (I do know both of them at least some, though not from playing games with them) and more about not believing that whether they'd pick PRs is something that can be confidently sussed out by knowing personalities, especially when it's the kind of thing scum could be liable to think twice on.

I'm also barely "tunneling" Mini; I was asked to case her, I cased her, she literally hasn't posted since then. It's been like two hours.

[Save The Dragons]

I think they absolutely could decide to take no PRs!

Do you know them both well? You've implied so far that you don't, so I'm struggling to buy this.

yikes

[Battle Mage]

It's less about knowing them (I do know both of them at least some, though not from playing games with them) and more about not believing that whether they'd pick PRs is something that can be confidently sussed out by knowing personalities, especially when it's the kind of thing scum could be liable to think twice on.

I'm also barely "tunneling" Mini; I was asked to case her, I cased her, she literally hasn't posted since then. It's been like two hours.

I've been defending Mini pretty hard, and you've been resolute nonetheless, despite warm words. So I'd say you're tunnelling. You haven't given any impression of looking at others for an elim today, as I had suggested.

[Battle Mage]

completely off-topic, but I'm not sure what to make of Save the Dragons calling me bizarre