Open 808: The Council Has Spoken

[Raya36]

alright i'll re-read Nono then. While I do, can you talk me through why Nono bussed A50? Because it seems to me like Nono's name is being thrown around without much substance backing it up.

Read T-Bone's post about this. What he said about this makes sense

[Raya36]

I was discussing the possibility in laying out the POE from the council. Gun to my head I think scum!Raya has more incentive to not think twice about my miselim if I'm being honest. Fair play to you if you are and didn't go for it.

my question is, why would town-Raya be moving away from elimming within the pool of players who didn't elim A50? I don't understand Raya's back and forth on you at all - one minute pretty convinced you're scum, the next defending you without much thought.

That is a feature of Raya. Unsure if it is alignment indicative or just player indicative.

Yeahhh I'm working on it but I hate being wrong more than flip flopping

[Battle Mage]

The last thing T-Bone-scum needs is more conftowns, which would have resulted if he killed (yessirree would be conftown). If T-Bone is scum, the smart play for him would be to no-kill if he has designs on actually winning.

- Ridiculous, a kill last night is the only way to win if A50 is my scumbuddy.

I've already explained why that isn't the case, and why strategically your optimal play was to no-kill (which if you're scum is obviously what happened). Given what we eventually decided in terms of protect/track, if you killed last night, you'd be throwing the game.

T-Bone was advocating for himself to be tracked at one stage during the night, which is consistent with him not planning to actually kill.

Also dumb as shit because if I was tracked and no-killed that would gaurantee one of BM/Raya/Bone is scum and I'd get eliminated in that pool. It's almost like BM is projecting his own choice not to kill onto someone else.

Remember this when I flip town

. I would like every player to make a note of this if you make the mistake of eliminating me please.

No it wouldn't T-Bone, and I feel like we've discussed this ad nauseum. If you won't take it from me, perhaps listen to Enchant who made the same points about no-kill. Or alternatively, consider that your own suspicion of me contradicts your position here. It's not "dumb as shit", it's just simple logic.

If scum didn't no kill, they tried to kill me. So either scum no-killed or I'm town. Nonetheless, T-Bone is pushing me as scum (which implies scum no-killed, meaning his original logic was invalid, but he refuses to acknowledge that).

My dude, if scum tried to kill you, and if you

really thought that

, you wouldn't be pushing me as scum.

This is a BM scumslip.

I think it's a possibility, in the same way as it's a possibility that you're scum. I'm not so conceited that I assume I'm definitely right about you, and so there remains a possibility that you and Raya are both town, and scum did try to kill me last night. But even saying that feels unlikely, because why does A50 advocate for, and approve a council which doesn't include their scumpartner?

In any case, painting this as a 'scumslip' is poor.

And why is T-Bone-scum motivated to elim me? T-Bone-scum is within a pool of 3 (non-A50 voters) which likely contains the final scum, and needs a mis-elim or 2 outside of that to have a chance. In contrast, pushing me makes no sense for T-Bone-town who is a highly experienced and capable player, and not somebody who would be over-thinking or over-playing here.

The way to put me into that pool was to track me and force me to no-kill. But since you knew I was town, you decided against that so that when you pushed my mis-elim you can go 'sorry guys, I guess scum was just too afraid to kill'. You could have guaranteed my elimination by using the track on me last night if you truly thought I was scum, but you didn't, because it would then make 100% necessary your elimination as well. I mean, your elimination is still 100% necessary after I flip town. So...you should have made a kill if you wanted to pin this on me. Sucks to suck.

Nice try, but you were already in that pool by virtue of your vote yesterday. We couldn't achieve anything by tracking you last night. So we tracked another player within the PoE to confirm/clear them as scum. I'm completely baffled that you're claiming not to understand how the setup works, and Raya is not being clear about the optimal and sub-optimal approach to using the abilities - instead just trying to avoid taking a position against a loud player.

T-Bone's attitude (a pre-occupation with protecting himself, rather than a meaningful focus on scumhunting) is not what I'd expect from town in a game where a win is virtually guaranteed.

I don't care about protecting myself, I care about catching scum.

I've seen scarcely any evidence of that all game. Your focus during Day 1, Night 1 and Day 2 was entirely about how to get yourself on the council and how to minimise the amount of people accusing you.

In order to catch scum I cannot let scum get away with a miselimination without consequences. These people NEED to eliminate you tomorrow,

because I called you out? and you hoped you could silence me last night? I wonder if Raya will accurately recount your comments last night in that respect?

and thus I need to break down bit by bit why everything in your case is scum motivated.

Which is completely redundant because I'm town, and there's no substance or credibility to your suggestion otherwise. So in the event you were town, remind me what scum-hunting you've done?

There is no motivation for A50 to push T-Bone so hard into the council if they aren't scum together, given A50 barely did anything else of note in the game. A50 is a pretty straightforward and direct player, so fairly unlikely it was a double-bluff. It's possible A50 would use that as a means to buddy up to a townie who could be manipulated, but T-Bone feels pretty low down the list of players who would fit that profile.

Here we go again, more verifiably not true things regarding A50. A50 did not get me on the council. A50 was looking for a townie to give him permission to do something, and I gave him permission. A50 was trying to climb into my pocket. Scumbuddies do not do this.

This is a false claim - it's not "verifiably not true" - it's unclear and an assertion. You've glossed over the substance of my point above, which is that if A50 was trying to manipulate somebody, why would he choose you? And why does he sign off on a council which includes no scum?

T-Bone was very keen last night to keep Raya and I from criticising him the following day, despite his plan which didn't stand up to scrutiny.

My plan would have produced confirmed scum in you so...it was actually a great plan.

I'll reiterate again, as I think the point is getting lost in the emotional bullshit.

Last night, scum either no-killed or killed me.
If it's the latter, I'm town.
If it's the former, tracking me (or anybody) would have made no difference to anything (in which case our abilities were redundant anyway).

Your plan was objectively a bad plan, and there is no argument that will ever convince me otherwise.

Your plan is the one where you get to try to wiggle out of the elimination pool. A healthy reminder that BM needs to be the Day 3 elimination.

I was never really in the elimination pool? At least I was pretty low down the pecking order, given my vote yesterday and evidenced by my inclusion on the council. I think you've picked a bad fight here but you're not able to U-turn to a more viable mis-elim off-wagon (although I can see from recent posts you are trying to shift to Nono?).

[Battle Mage]

alright i'll re-read Nono then. While I do, can you talk me through why Nono bussed A50? Because it seems to me like Nono's name is being thrown around without much substance backing it up.

Read T-Bone's post about this. What he said about this makes sense

oh I will, but I'd like to get a position from you?

[T-Bone]

"Shift to Nono?" You understand I was robbed of the chance to eliminate you, correct? I literally cannot vote you or have you properly eliminated today.

[Battle Mage]

I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

Look at this flat out lie! Raya can even verify this! Town doesn't lie like this! @Raya please remember BM keeps repeating this lie. Please confirm it in case BM kills you tonight.

Yes, I'll confirm this. In the council thread T-Bone's plan was to use the track and not the protect which in itself isn't a bad plan, and he was also willing to use the protect too if we wanted to. He never not wanted to use the abilities.

No Raya, he said he wanted to not use the protect, and to use the track on somebody in the council (which in my view is tantamount to not using it, because it means you have zero chance of actually catching scum making a kill). This isn't about truth or lie, it's about interpretation. My interpretation is that the whole mechanic of this game is designed so the council exploits the power roles at it's disposal, and with 1 scum dead on Day 1, there is no reason to adopt a sub-optimal approach.

So you are being unduly generous by saying it "in itself isn't a bad plan", because it IS a bad plan. The only GOOD plan would be one which allows the town to avail itself of the firepower at it's disposal to try and secure victory. The variables are who to target with those abilities, but no council in it's right mind should be tracking someone in the council who will know they are being tracked. Which is what you also concluded last night, so I'm not sure why you're reverting to sitting on the fence here now.

I don't like the way this is being misconstrued as a matter of 'fact' when it isn't - but it is a pretty straightforward matter of judgement. I can understand that from T-Bone, who hasn't given himself much room for manouevre beyond tunnelling me. But can you explain why you didn't correct T-Bone on this? Or alternatively, talk me through how my assessment of events is incorrect?

The part I described isn't a bad plan.

The plan is bad

when he suggested using the track on someone in the council. But if we used the track on Yessiree as we did for example but didn't protect we'd have more info than we have now. I'm not fencesitting.

The plan was absolutely horrible.

But the part of the plan I just described was good.

Can you explain then why you made a response beginning "Yes, I'll confirm this" in post 715, which did nothing to either commit to your own view, presumably only served to keep T-Bone happy, and in fact obfuscated the reality of what happened, which is T-Bone proposed using the abilities in a sub-optimal way, despite pushing hard to get himself on the council -

which was the original point I made and find difficult to justify from the perspective of T-Bone-town?

Because I feel like your post 715 gives an impression of supporting T-Bone's position and undermining my core argument aforementioned, which doesn't really accord with your view here. I.e. why did you not just say what you actually thought, instead paying lip service to T-Bone's inaccurate claim that I lied about the demerits of his plan? I know I'm prone to hyperbole at times, but only 3 of us can account for what was said last night - clarity is key.

As an aside, if we had used the track as we did, but failed to use the protect, we would not necessarily have

more

information (and certainly not from T-Bone's vantage point, given his insistence that I'm scum), just different information. We would either know that scum no-killed, which is not really useful information, or we'd know that Yessirree is town but I'd be dead. I'm not sure either of those scenarios put us in a better position than we are now.

[Raya36]

alright i'll re-read Nono then. While I do, can you talk me through why Nono bussed A50? Because it seems to me like Nono's name is being thrown around without much substance backing it up.

Read T-Bone's post about this. What he said about this makes sense

oh I will, but I'd like to get a position from you?

Well yes but that part is going to sound basically the same.

Spoiler:

mozamis, enchant, almost is really scummy, in my eyes xD

If scum are going to distance this game, where you basically lose if you lose your scumbuddy D1, this is a good way to do it. No backing so no real traction will grow from this.

thinking almost, almost has played with me before,, why am i scummy, almost?

VOTE: almost

Once again this a weak reason to vote someone so traction shouldn't have been expected. It was early on the wagon so it's very possible it was a distancing attempt with plans to unvote (but they never checked back in on time).

to me, i'm cleared,, look at how i was almost's first pick for elim yesterday, it's easy game

HEAL: nono, art, mage would be ideal council, am fine with switching for enchant

Claiming yourself cleared doesn't look good, and this is the first time nono actually put themselves in their council vote, after A50 was eliminated.

If I use my super intellectual gift I'd say one scum in BM/Raya/Enchant and the other is in Nono/Atemiana (but don't quote me on any of that yet. I'll only take responsibility of my reads on the top 3 so far)

Distancing again, not taking responsibility for those 2 bottom scumreads so showing they're weak

Nono?? I never suggested or even hinted I want Nono in the council. It's Moz, T-Bone & Yessiree for me

But then there's this. Maybe I'm wrong on this too...

[Raya36]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

[Battle Mage]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

[Raya36]

Can you explain then why you made a response beginning "Yes, I'll confirm this" in post 715, which did nothing to either commit to your own view, presumably only served to keep T-Bone happy, and in fact obfuscated the reality of what happened, which is T-Bone proposed using the abilities in a sub-optimal way, despite pushing hard to get himself on the council - which was the original point I made and find difficult to justify from the perspective of T-Bone-town? Because I feel like your post 715 gives an impression of supporting T-Bone's position and undermining my core argument aforementioned, which doesn't really accord with your view here. I.e. why did you not just say what you actually thought, instead paying lip service to T-Bone's inaccurate claim that I lied about the demerits of his plan? I know I'm prone to hyperbole at times, but only 3 of us can account for what was said last night - clarity is key.

As an aside, if we had used the track as we did, but failed to use the protect, we would not necessarily have more information (and certainly not from T-Bone's vantage point, given his insistence that I'm scum), just different information. We would either know that scum no-killed, which is not really useful information, or we'd know that Yessirree is town but I'd be dead. I'm not sure either of those scenarios put us in a better position than we are now.

Because the way you wrote it was misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention. His plan for the abilities was not optimal but he was still wanting to use the abilities. I didn't say it to keep T-Bone happy and I've already said my views. I said it to clear up the facts in yours and T-Bone's 1on1 for anyone not aware of the context first-hand.

It would give us much more info. If we knew scum no-killed for fact then I wouldn't be doubting the possibility of yessiree being scum, but instead I'm giving yessiree some credit because they have a higher chance of being town due to that lack of info. If you died and it wasn't yessiree then we would now have yessiree out of the already small pool and we while this sucks for you, we wouldn't be having this particular 1v1 and you would be one less person in the pool too.

[mozamis]

If T-Bone and BM could agree to disagree, you're both town with different approaches to the game

[Raya36]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

Because we don't know if they did or not. I guess just by this alone T-Bone has the highest chance of being scum. There's just too many things that don't make sense.

If we elim T-Bone today and he's town how would feel about being the elim the next day unless new info tells us otherwise. I feel like there's a very high chance your 1v1 is TvS

[mozamis]

Raya at least looking like they are trying to help town and solve the game.
VOTE: NONONO

[mozamis]

VOTE: NONO

[Battle Mage]

Can you explain then why you made a response beginning "Yes, I'll confirm this" in post 715, which did nothing to either commit to your own view, presumably only served to keep T-Bone happy, and in fact obfuscated the reality of what happened, which is T-Bone proposed using the abilities in a sub-optimal way, despite pushing hard to get himself on the council - which was the original point I made and find difficult to justify from the perspective of T-Bone-town? Because I feel like your post 715 gives an impression of supporting T-Bone's position and undermining my core argument aforementioned, which doesn't really accord with your view here. I.e. why did you not just say what you actually thought, instead paying lip service to T-Bone's inaccurate claim that I lied about the demerits of his plan? I know I'm prone to hyperbole at times, but only 3 of us can account for what was said last night - clarity is key.

As an aside, if we had used the track as we did, but failed to use the protect, we would not necessarily have more information (and certainly not from T-Bone's vantage point, given his insistence that I'm scum), just different information. We would either know that scum no-killed, which is not really useful information, or we'd know that Yessirree is town but I'd be dead. I'm not sure either of those scenarios put us in a better position than we are now.

Because the way you wrote it was misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention. His plan for the abilities was not optimal but

he was still wanting to use the abilities.

Not quite right though - you've already acknowledged he was only wanting to use 1 ability, and his proposal was to use it in such a way that it couldn't result in a genuine red-check - forgoing the advantage town has. Would it be unfair for me to argue your post here is actually misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention?

I didn't say it to keep T-Bone happy and I've already said my views. I said it to clear up the facts in yours and T-Bone's 1on1 for anyone not aware of the context first-hand.

Do you think you cleared up facts? I feel that the fact you had to explain that the position in that post did not reflect your overall sentiments (albeit to me, although few others are around) on T-Bone's plan was very misleading and (perhaps inadvertently) supported the misconception he is pushing about his proposed course of action last night - which is in turn, the basis for his case on me. You've been clear subsequently, but only when I've pushed you and it feels a bit like you're bouncing between people to find the path of least resistance.

It would give us much more info. If we knew scum no-killed for fact then I wouldn't be doubting the possibility of yessiree being scum, but instead I'm giving yessiree some credit because they have a higher chance of being town due to that lack of info. If you died and it wasn't yessiree then we would now have yessiree out of the already small pool and we while this sucks for you, we wouldn't be having this particular 1v1 and you would be one less person in the pool too.

That isn't more info - it's different info as I previously said. What you're describing above is a challenge that you have some information but you're not sure what it means, and so you'd prefer to have different simpler information, even though it has less bearing on working out who is scum. Don't you think it's potentially useful and valuable to have information which suggests a theoretically lower likelihood of 2/3 of your potential scumpool being scum? Surely that's useful information to guide your decision today. And in the alternative scenario you posit, you'd be making exactly the same decision (i.e. me and yessirree clear, therefore T-Bone is final scum)?

In other news, I'm sad that you think a benefit of me dying would be that you don't have to talk to me. This isn't a 1v1 from my perspective.

[Raya36]

Raya at least looking like they are trying to help town and solve the game.
VOTE: NONONO

Take a look at the quick interactions analysis I did. I don't think nono makes sense anymore

[Battle Mage]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

Because we don't know if they did or not. I guess just by this alone T-Bone has the highest chance of being scum. There's just too many things that don't make sense.

If we elim T-Bone today and he's town how would feel about being the elim the next day unless new info tells us otherwise. I feel like there's a very high chance your 1v1 is TvS

I was thinking of suggesting the same, but I'm not sure what to make of you proposing it. In a world where T-Bone and me both flip town, are you willing to go next?

[Battle Mage]

Raya at least looking like they are trying to help town and solve the game.
VOTE: NONONO

Take a look at the quick interactions analysis I did. I don't think nono makes sense anymore

you think NoNo is town, but you're leaving them at -1 here?

[Battle Mage]

I'm not vibing with this at all...

[mozamis]

Stand out town for me are still Moz, Tbone, BM and Enchant.
Arte is likely town but I'm a tiny bit paranoid about them as they seem nice.
Meaning I could vote Today for Nono, Raya, or Yessiree.

[Raya36]

Can you explain then why you made a response beginning "Yes, I'll confirm this" in post 715, which did nothing to either commit to your own view, presumably only served to keep T-Bone happy, and in fact obfuscated the reality of what happened, which is T-Bone proposed using the abilities in a sub-optimal way, despite pushing hard to get himself on the council - which was the original point I made and find difficult to justify from the perspective of T-Bone-town? Because I feel like your post 715 gives an impression of supporting T-Bone's position and undermining my core argument aforementioned, which doesn't really accord with your view here. I.e. why did you not just say what you actually thought, instead paying lip service to T-Bone's inaccurate claim that I lied about the demerits of his plan? I know I'm prone to hyperbole at times, but only 3 of us can account for what was said last night - clarity is key.

As an aside, if we had used the track as we did, but failed to use the protect, we would not necessarily have more information (and certainly not from T-Bone's vantage point, given his insistence that I'm scum), just different information. We would either know that scum no-killed, which is not really useful information, or we'd know that Yessirree is town but I'd be dead. I'm not sure either of those scenarios put us in a better position than we are now.

Because the way you wrote it was misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention. His plan for the abilities was not optimal but

he was still wanting to use the abilities.

Not quite right though - you've already acknowledged he was only wanting to use 1 ability, and his proposal was to use it in such a way that it couldn't result in a genuine red-check - forgoing the advantage town has. Would it be unfair for me to argue your post here is actually misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention?

But he was still intending to use an ability which is not what you claimed. And yes, that would be unfair.

I didn't say it to keep T-Bone happy and I've already said my views. I said it to clear up the facts in yours and T-Bone's 1on1 for anyone not aware of the context first-hand.

Do you think you cleared up facts? I feel that the fact you had to explain that the position in that post did not reflect your overall sentiments (albeit to me, although few others are around) on T-Bone's plan was very misleading and (perhaps inadvertently) supported the misconception he is pushing about his proposed course of action last night - which is in turn, the basis for his case on me. You've been clear subsequently, but only when I've pushed you and it feels a bit like you're bouncing between people to find the path of least resistance.

I think both of you are being misleading, and even if I was not perfect I did clear it up the best of the 3 of us.

It would give us much more info. If we knew scum no-killed for fact then I wouldn't be doubting the possibility of yessiree being scum, but instead I'm giving yessiree some credit because they have a higher chance of being town due to that lack of info. If you died and it wasn't yessiree then we would now have yessiree out of the already small pool and we while this sucks for you, we wouldn't be having this particular 1v1 and you would be one less person in the pool too.

That isn't more info - it's different info as I previously said. What you're describing above is a challenge that you have some information but you're not sure what it means, and so you'd prefer to have different simpler information, even though it has less bearing on working out who is scum. Don't you think it's potentially useful and valuable to have information which suggests a theoretically lower likelihood of 2/3 of your potential scumpool being scum? Surely that's useful information to guide your decision today. And in the alternative scenario you posit, you'd be making exactly the same decision (i.e. me and yessirree clear, therefore T-Bone is final scum)?

It's different info and overall more. We really don't have much info now without making assumptions. We had the potential of a cleared townie.

In other news, I'm sad that you think a benefit of me dying would be that you don't have to talk to me. This isn't a 1v1 from my perspective.

I never said a benefit of you dying is I don't have to talk to you. I said that if you did die a positive outcome of that is the pool would be smaller.

[Raya36]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

Because we don't know if they did or not. I guess just by this alone T-Bone has the highest chance of being scum. There's just too many things that don't make sense.

If we elim T-Bone today and he's town how would feel about being the elim the next day unless new info tells us otherwise. I feel like there's a very high chance your 1v1 is TvS

I was thinking of suggesting the same, but I'm not sure what to make of you proposing it. In a world where T-Bone and me both flip town, are you willing to go next?

I'll go next if we think it would provide the most info but if you and T-Bone flip town we need to be careful about who we elim next.

[Battle Mage]

yo Raya, why you still leaving your vote on Nono...?

[Raya36]

Raya at least looking like they are trying to help town and solve the game.
VOTE: NONONO

Take a look at the quick interactions analysis I did. I don't think nono makes sense anymore

you think NoNo is town, but you're leaving them at -1 here?

Oops, forgot I was voting
UNVOTE:

[Battle Mage]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

Because we don't know if they did or not. I guess just by this alone T-Bone has the highest chance of being scum. There's just too many things that don't make sense.

If we elim T-Bone today and he's town how would feel about being the elim the next day unless new info tells us otherwise. I feel like there's a very high chance your 1v1 is TvS

I was thinking of suggesting the same, but I'm not sure what to make of you proposing it. In a world where T-Bone and me both flip town, are you willing to go next?

I'll go next if we think it would provide the most info but if you and T-Bone flip town we need to be careful about who we elim next.

heh, yeah I thought you might say something like that. Consider my answer similarly caveated then.