Open 808: The Council Has Spoken

[T-Bone]

Nah, we wouldn't want to accidentally give the town any useful information. A player who will go unnamed, wanted to make sure we had no information so that he could push a miselim based on that lack of information.

although that isn't true, how convenient it is for you to be able to peddle such a baseless theory, in an attempt to buy yourself an otherwise unlikely, but much needed, mis-elim.

Please enlighten the class what information we now have.

Can you tell us for certain whether scum tried to kill last night or not?

Can you tell us for certain if anyone is confirmed town?

[Battle Mage]

3 Q's:

1. Why do you assume BM vs T-Bone is TvS?
2. Given your assumption BM vs T-Bone is TvS, why are you still not voting T-Bone? You were quite ready to jump to Nono earlier. Which leads me to:
3. Why did your analysis of Nono lead you to conclude Nono was town?

1) just to be clear when I say 1v1 I don't mean TvS. A 1v1 can be TvT or SvS too. I'm not assuming you're TvS when I say you're 1v1. I have said a couple time that I think you could be TvS though and that's because of the attitude and trying to discredit each other.

2) I was less confident on any of my reads compared to today and now T-Bone is at E-2 I think and I don't want him at E-1 yet. I'm leaning towards T-Bone today fwiw

3) Because I analyzed the interactions with A50 and I concluded town based on them? I don't think I understand what you're asking here. I shouldn't have jumped on nono being scum before thoroughly looking through interactions if that's what you mean.

1. Yes I understood the distinction, but was interested in what led you to the, presumably strong, TvS read - given we are 2 out of your 3 scumpool.
2. That makes sense.
3. The premise for my question was that I actually thought you put together a reasonably good case for Nono-scum, and so was slightly surprised in retrospect that it led you to pivot 180 and conclude Nono was town. So my question is, why did those interactions initially ping you as scum, but then convince you of nono-town?

[Battle Mage]

I'm glad BM has moved from 't-bone is scum' to 'I hope t-bone is town so I can convince enchant and arte to do sub-optimal things in council tonight'.

haha i did say "almost", sorry to get your hopes up!

[mozamis]

@ Raya - I think I see your point, that scum are unlikely to bus in a2 player scum game. Which is a point I had made. But - as I also said, (and Arte?), Nono may have made that vote for Amost early on,and then not had time to get off.
Again, it's speculation.
Scum arent always that good. NoNo scum may have thought -irrationally in your eyes - that he was going to bus/distance themselves from Almost, however sub-optimal you may think that play is.

The main thing about Nono is their lack of town play.
Interactions with Almost world of WIFOM.

[Battle Mage]

I'm using hyperbolic language to get my point across.

It was my mistake not to fight harder in our council topic. We'd be in a much better place had I done so.

I'd argue you're deliberately lying to paint me in a negative light and paint yourself in a positive light. Hyperbole is like exaggeration for emphasis, not saying something completely factually false with no illustrative benefit. More like hyper bollocks

[Raya36]

But a few points of information, which perhaps Raya will verify:

1. I did not have a strong preference on who was targetted (I think my original suggestion was Enchant), other than the obvious principle of us using the protect ability, and using the track on somebody who might perform the kill.

2. The ultimate decision was collectively consented, so T-Bone referring to it as unconscionable is disingenuous. I don't recall T-Bone raising significant objection to me being protected, on which nobody really expressed a strong preference.

3. It's already been stated and verified, but T-Bone's inference that he proposed Track: Yessirree, Protect: Nobody is not true, and so what he claims to be "his plan" above was not actually his plan, which makes the comparison a pointless strawman.

Last time I'm doing this.

1) Your first suggestion was to protect Enchant and track yessiree. You did not want to track T-Bone. Your second suggestion for protect was yourself. I didn't see you explicitly say you didn't have a track preference but you were willing to be tracked if we wanted to.

2) I suggested the actions, BM agreed, T-Bone agreed as long as we didn't waste time arguing with him this day, then said he was fine with using it how we suggested but wanted us to understand what his plan could do.

3) His plan was track himself, protect no one.

[Battle Mage]

But a few points of information, which perhaps Raya will verify:

1. I did not have a strong preference on who was targetted (I think my original suggestion was Enchant), other than the obvious principle of us using the protect ability, and using the track on somebody who might perform the kill.

2. The ultimate decision was collectively consented, so T-Bone referring to it as unconscionable is disingenuous. I don't recall T-Bone raising significant objection to me being protected, on which nobody really expressed a strong preference.

3. It's already been stated and verified, but T-Bone's inference that he proposed Track: Yessirree, Protect: Nobody is not true, and so what he claims to be "his plan" above was not actually his plan, which makes the comparison a pointless strawman.

Last time I'm doing this.

1) Your first suggestion was to protect Enchant and track yessiree. You did not want to track T-Bone. Your second suggestion for protect was yourself. I didn't see you explicitly say you didn't have a track preference but you were willing to be tracked if we wanted to.

2) I suggested the actions, BM agreed,

T-Bone agreed as long as we didn't waste time arguing with him this day

, then said he was fine with using it how we suggested but wanted us to understand what his plan could do.

3) His plan was track himself, protect no one.

thanks Raya.

For anyone on the fence, the bit in bold is worth emphasising. T-Bone was content with the agreed night actions

as long as Raya and I didn't push to elim him

.

[mozamis]

Raya does look more and more town.
Which means I hope I'm right about Nono, otherwise I'm running out suspects.
Could we just hammer Nono before we go round in circles.

[Raya36]

3 Q's:

1. Why do you assume BM vs T-Bone is TvS?
2. Given your assumption BM vs T-Bone is TvS, why are you still not voting T-Bone? You were quite ready to jump to Nono earlier. Which leads me to:
3. Why did your analysis of Nono lead you to conclude Nono was town?

1) just to be clear when I say 1v1 I don't mean TvS. A 1v1 can be TvT or SvS too. I'm not assuming you're TvS when I say you're 1v1. I have said a couple time that I think you could be TvS though and that's because of the attitude and trying to discredit each other.

2) I was less confident on any of my reads compared to today and now T-Bone is at E-2 I think and I don't want him at E-1 yet. I'm leaning towards T-Bone today fwiw

3) Because I analyzed the interactions with A50 and I concluded town based on them? I don't think I understand what you're asking here. I shouldn't have jumped on nono being scum before thoroughly looking through interactions if that's what you mean.

1. Yes I understood the distinction, but was interested in what led you to the, presumably strong, TvS read - given we are 2 out of your 3 scumpool.
2. That makes sense.
3. The premise for my question was that I actually thought you put together a reasonably good case for Nono-scum, and so was slightly surprised in retrospect that it led you to pivot 180 and conclude Nono was town. So my question is, why did those interactions initially ping you as scum, but then convince you of nono-town?

1) I mean that alone gives a higher chance of you being TvS.
3) I never put together a case on nono scum. I thought T-Bone's analysis had a good chance of being possible, agreed and voted, did an interaction check of my own. I saw what looked to be distancing, which then turned into way too much to be distancing. So Nono is probably town. I guess what happened is I went into the nono analysis believing them to be scum and then proved myself wrong

[Raya36]

@ Raya - I think I see your point, that scum are unlikely to bus in a2 player scum game. Which is a point I had made. But - as I also said, (and Arte?), Nono may have made that vote for Amost early on,and then not had time to get off.
Again, it's speculation.
Scum arent always that good. NoNo scum may have thought -irrationally in your eyes - that he was going to bus/distance themselves from Almost, however sub-optimal you may think that play is.

The main thing about Nono is their lack of town play.
Interactions with Almost world of WIFOM.

Look at A50 then ctrl+F nono. It doesn't make sense. With the info we have now I think it goes T-Bone -> BM -> yessiree -> nono

[Raya36]

Raya does look more and more town.
Which means I hope I'm right about Nono, otherwise I'm running out suspects.
Could we just hammer Nono before we go round in circles.

Why do you TR T-Bone?

[mozamis]

@ Raya, re: T-Bone: Most scum would have faded into the background by now. He's out in the open, argumentative, confrontational, and looks like he' trying to solve the game. Very few scum are capable of playing like he does.
This is a problem town often have, scum don't do much, town post a lot, get into arguments, piss other town off, contradcit themselves, whilst scum just sit back and blend in.
The overview is really important.

[T-Bone]

I'm glad BM has moved from 't-bone is scum' to 'I hope t-bone is town so I can convince enchant and arte to do sub-optimal things in council tonight'.

haha i did say "almost", sorry to get your hopes up!

I mean, I gotta watch you dodge the righteous elimination you need in the dead thread soon enough. You still gotta play.

[T-Bone]

@ Raya, re: T-Bone: Most scum would have faded into the background by now. He's out in the open, argumentative, confrontational, and looks like he' trying to solve the game. Very few scum are capable of playing like he does.
This is a problem town often have, scum don't do much, town post a lot, get into arguments, piss other town off, contradcit themselves, whilst scum just sit back and blend in.
The overview is really important.

For what its worth I am very capable of doing this as scum.

We...just wouldn't be in this current situation if I was.

[mozamis]

So Raya looking more and more town.
Scum must be in Nono, Arte or Yessire.

[Raya36]

@ Raya, re: T-Bone: Most scum would have faded into the background by now. He's out in the open, argumentative, confrontational, and looks like he' trying to solve the game. Very few scum are capable of playing like he does.
This is a problem town often have, scum don't do much, town post a lot, get into arguments, piss other town off, contradcit themselves, whilst scum just sit back and blend in.
The overview is really important.

I don't know if that applies to scum!T-Bone to be honest

[Raya36]

So Raya looking more and more town.
Scum must be in Nono, Arte or Yessire.

Arte doesn't make sense

[yessiree]

Woke up to 4 more pages of content, oh boy. Skimmed through, saw quite a bit of walls, so I need some caffeine in my system before continuing

[Nono]

i'll be around for a bit,, will read and things
for me, it's just clear it's t-bone, am bored kek

[Nono]

lol you couldn't catch me for the right reasons, let alone the wrong ones

not a genius, never said that, though a bear did
this proves the point actually,, you feel it's unfair to be caught when i'm (nono is) "playing so badly"
but i'm just not scum kek

[Nono]

read up,, appreciate you a lot mage, not just for this game, as a personality)
for this game, am confident you're town, agree with 706 "yeah cos" post

about bone:
would he no kill? of course, as mentioned, killing would conftown someone, also points to council-scum

- Ridiculous, a kill last night is the only way to win if A50 is my scumbuddy.

what??!?! how?! xD explain, please, the game plan

recall 49's council proposals? for this reason alone, would not trust bone for endgame, ever,, and luckily, we don't have to, have enough elims
tstbs isn't a thing, shouldn't ignore hard evidence

I guess no point healing until we figure out who are strongest town reads are?

This and T-Bone's opening are Town posts.

HEAL: Mozamis, T-Bone, Almost50

@Mod: Would you accept a string that is NOT the exact username if it definitely identifies that player?

(Ex: Over50)

T-Bone: No Vote
Almost50: No Vote
Enchant: Nono
yessiree: No Vote.
Artemiana: Battle Mage, Mozamis, Raya36
Nono: No Vote
mozamis: No Vote
Battle Mage: Raya36(?)
Raya36: Battle Mage

BM (2), Raya36 (2), Mozamis (1) Nono (1)


Please check, if i'm wrong.

So what's the plan again? Vote 3 that are not me? Fine

HEAL: Mozamis, T-Bone, Yessiree

Also others can change vote/add more like T-Bone/Artemiana did.

OK then. My choices are unpopular it seems, but I'll add them anyway:

HEAL: Moz, T-Bone, Yessiree

I could go for BM/Raya/moz Bm/Raya/Tbone

Honestly, like idea with BM/Raya/T-Bone.

Any chance of a quick compromise on the council? I will take Raya in if you guys drop one of BM/Artem. My fear is we "might" be making BOTH Scum unkillable today, which would mean we are killing Town regardless after we finalize the council as it is.

I won't even dictate and alternative. Just pick one of Moz/T-B/yes and place them in one of BM/Artem spots.

I'll compromise with you. I've made my stance on wanting to be on the council clear, I'm flexible with whom I can be on it with. What do you want?

Well then..

HEAL: BM/Raya/T-Bone

finding it really hard to believe t-bone has mage as first scum choice,, feels like he has one point, i.e, the "no doc plan" and shuts everything out to 1v1, it's not the town way
mage makes a lot of sense, to me,, why not address the other way has some merit, and why is it all scummy, anyhow?

[Nono]

and to people who think i'm scum, biggest takeaway is this: when he tried to elim me,, if he were my buddy, even if he didn't like me, he'd keep me around, for the council dodge tactics) it's easy game

Can we keep yesiree and mozamis off of all councils, please?

You're clipping both my wings and asking me to fly here. Aside from them two, I only have you as a

confident

TR. And -even worse- I am not allowed to heal myself, so I can't even use the global TR on BM option to complete my trio.

Well, the closest to a TR aside from the above is Raya I guess, and I won't fight against an Enchant council membership, but then I feel like I'm "giving in" and when that happens I am highly likely to misread a scumster as a townie.

Wait! That does look like a read list of some sort. Let me try to put it in a more readable form:

T-Bone/mozamis
yessiree

BM/Raya/Enchant

Nono/Artemiana

If I use my super intellectual gift I'd say one scum in BM/Raya/Enchant and the other is in Nono/Atemiana (but don't quote me on any of that yet. I'll only take responsibility of my reads on the top 3 so far)

VOTE: Nono

I can also do Artem, but nobody's voting her

VOTE: Nono

I can also do Artem, but nobody's voting her

Mmm...

Why do you do this?

Like...

You start off passive aggressive and then out of no where it's like OH NO, NONONO PLZPLZPLZ

OLZPLZPLZ LETS DO SOMETHING ELSE!

Why do you continue to play the woe is me card? Even when you went against the council you thought BM and I were both scum which is pretty ridiculous imo. Considering you successfully kicked me off, I would imagine you have the capacity to push this much harder?

ISO me. You and Nono are my 2 main suspects. The two at the very bottom of my reads. I didn't even keep it a secret.

to art: *cough* but ok w/e xD

[yessiree]

T-Bone's attitude (a pre-occupation with protecting himself, rather than a meaningful focus on scumhunting) is not what I'd expect from town in a game where a win is virtually guaranteed.
There is no motivation for A50 to push T-Bone so hard into the council if they aren't scum together, given A50 barely did anything else of note in the game. A50 is a pretty straightforward and direct player, so fairly unlikely it was a double-bluff. It's possible A50 would use that as a means to buddy up to a townie who could be manipulated, but T-Bone feels pretty low down the list of players who would fit that profile.
T-Bone was very keen last night to keep Raya and I from criticising him the following day, despite his plan which didn't stand up to scrutiny.
I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

Agreed with the assessment here about T-Bone being less interested in game solving, and more invested in deflecting pressure off him. As seen with his interactions with mozamis, me, and to a lesser extent Rayas. Most of his play day1 seems to revolve around players who expressed a scumread on him by quickly turning around and scumreading them. Being adamant that it wasn't A50 who got him on the council and strongarming Raya clarify her stance on him was also odd, and I'd even scumread based on tone, but bit iffy on that.

[yessiree]

Right now its 1:7

Last night, it was 1:7

If a kill happened today we would be at 1:6

If scum kill, they reduce the amount of eliminations needed to win by half. If yessus was killed last night,

Tbone
BM
Raya

Would probably all be suspect

But

1:6
1:4
1:2

The scum on council could safely eliminate the other two before entering Lylo

Or they could eliminate off council once before Elo and they have a solid chance to win at Elo

it depends on context though surely? T-Bone-scum in the scenario above has a life expectancy of 1 gameday, so why would he ever do it? If T-Bone scum ever kills, he'd have to kill in the on-wagon pool (which is probably why he wasn't interested in using the track-ability to try and catch/clear a prime suspect, despite taking it as a given that scum would kill).

.

There's multiple pros to no-killing last night.
1 - it makes an even number, which is theoretically pro-scum, by making it harder to get an elimination (5 needed to reach consensus in 8p versus 4 needed in 7p), and also maximizes the elim pool.
2 - it denies the council PR utility. In a no-kill scenario, doctor is useless (no one needed to protect), and tracker can never generate ICs

ps. it's also plausible scum!bone wanted to kill BM but was unable to since he knew BM was protected

[yessiree]

Moz/Yes are in the 'I could see them being too afraid to kill' camp, and at least Yes would have been right to do so. The fact that it has been so hard for BM to get this miselim on me gives me hope for both these players.

well, you underestimate how bad I am at this game, I know I was tracked last night and stuff, but the idea to no-kill never crossed my mind until Enchant literally proclaimed it in his first post day2.