Open 808: The Council Has Spoken

[T-Bone]

And again truth be told I think the correct elimination is BM, but while I've made that case we can't do anything about it. Nono could simply be inactive town. But as I am the wrong elimination for my perspective, I'm looking elsewhere. And of the options we have that aren't me, Nono's play makes the most sense, holistically, of coming from scum. I know you've said you think Nono's and A50's interactions don't make sense...but I would charge that Nono's posting is too limited for you to be able to make that distinction. There just isn't a lot in Nono's posting. Minimal interactions Day 1, and god awful ones today.

[Raya36]

I thought I did. The way Nono voted for A50 looks like that thing you do where you vote your scumbuddy, and then back off when the scumbuddy defends themselves. Read this post again.

The rest of the interactions though. They were at each other for a lot of the game and not in a distancing way

[Raya36]

but I would charge that Nono's posting is too limited for you to be able to make that distinction. There just isn't a lot in Nono's posting. Minimal interactions Day 1, and god awful ones today.

If you were someone who was less active you probably wouldn't go after your scum partner the entire time you are active and vice versa. A50 shouldn't have gone after inactive scum partner nono like that

[T-Bone]

I mean, do you anticipate that your partner is gonna ghost you? I don't think I would.

If not Nono though, who are you looking at and why?

[T-Bone]

Besides the fact that you voted me. That's your problem, not mine.

[Raya36]

I mean, do you anticipate that your partner is gonna ghost you? I don't think I would.

If not Nono though, who are you looking at and why?

There's an in between though. A50 and Nono is too much.

I'm looking at you, if not yessiree, if not BM. Everyone else has a reason to be basically clear or highly townread. We eliminate you, get info overnight, reevaluate everyone's pools.

[T-Bone]

I thought I did. The way Nono voted for A50 looks like that thing you do where you vote your scumbuddy, and then back off when the scumbuddy defends themselves. Read this post again.

The rest of the interactions though. They were at each other for a lot of the game and not in a distancing way

I'm loath to bring up past games because meta is trash, so please know I do this with the utmost delicacy.

Our last game together, while I had a general feeling about MiniVirgo, it was one post that solidified the read for me. And the reason for that is simple, and how I approach the game. I approach it based on two general assumptions. First, I assume that everyone is playing to the best of their abilities. Second, I don't assume that every post a person makes is alignment indicative. People tell you what alignment they are in the margins, in discrete moments, not in overt actions. You say 'look at every post between Nono and A50' and I think you're approaching it backwards. You're looking for scum indication in every post and aren't finding it. I would say, you will never find scum indication in every post. Sometimes things aren't alignment indicative.

So when I look at the Nono and A50 interactions, I see an incomplete narrative. Maybe you're right and this was genuine on Nono's part. But to me, and the post I keep quoting as a result, this looks incomplete. The post I quoted looked to be an indication of something better from Nono. I think Nono fully intended to try and have a full interaction with A50 so that he could look like he's trying to sort A50. I think that because of Nono's infrequent posting, he wasn't able to fully realize this and ended up eliminating A50 because that was his last post of the day phase.

[T-Bone]

I mean, do you anticipate that your partner is gonna ghost you? I don't think I would.

If not Nono though, who are you looking at and why?

There's an in between though. A50 and Nono is too much.

I'm looking at you, if not yessiree, if not BM. Everyone else has a reason to be basically clear or highly townread. We eliminate you, get info overnight, reevaluate everyone's pools.

Do you think I'm scum or not? You're flipping me for info??? If I was scum it would end the game, no info needed.

So if you don't think I'm scum, then there's no reason to flip me. This doesn't make sense.

Are you posting like you already know I'm town? What is this?

[Raya36]

So when I look at the Nono and A50 interactions, I see an incomplete narrative. Maybe you're right and this was genuine on Nono's part. But to me, and the post I keep quoting as a result, this looks incomplete. The post I quoted looked to be an indication of something better from Nono. I think Nono fully intended to try and have a full interaction with A50 so that he could look like he's trying to sort A50. I think that because of Nono's infrequent posting, he wasn't able to fully realize this and ended up eliminating A50 because that was his last post of the day phase.

I just don't see it coming from SvS, there's too much pushing from either side and it just doesn't read as scum narrative to me.

[Raya36]

Do you think I'm scum or not? You're flipping me for info??? If I was scum it would end the game, no info needed.

So if you don't think I'm scum, then there's no reason to flip me. This doesn't make sense.

Are you posting like you already know I'm town? What is this?

No. I'm flipping you because I think you have the highest chance of being scum. And if I'm wrong then we get info. I thought that was clear with the "if not"s

[T-Bone]

surrrreeeee

[T-Bone]

You've been conceding my points most of the day phase barring Nono, so I'd love to hear the mental gymnastics you've gone through anyway to cast this vote.

[Raya36]

No mental gymnastics outside of natural indecisive townie progression

[Enchant]

I think killing T-Bone is... Bad decision.

Let me explain. We have tracks, as you remember. So, why not just track T-Bone?

If he is Mafia, he will skip/get catched. Either way we win or No Kill will happen.
Mafia will kill him and get rid of one of suspects for free.
Or Mafia will kill someone else, clearing T-Bone.

Why not? I find T-Bone powerful as Confirmed Townie. And stopping kill in theory could be useful.

[Raya36]

The problem with that is now T-Bone knows he's being tracked so if we keep him alive and he's scum then he just no kills and were back to where we started. Or scum choose to no kill to frame T-Bone. I do agree town-confirmed T-Bone would be very powerful.

Town is in a really good position right now with a lot of near confirmed town, a flipped scum, and a very small pool. If we're wrong on T-Bone then we use the info gained and I'm sure we can find the right person next day

[Enchant]

It's still gives us more elims.
*Shrug*

[Battle Mage]

I think killing T-Bone is... Bad decision.

Let me explain. We have tracks, as you remember. So, why not just track T-Bone?

If he is Mafia, he will skip/get catched. Either way we win or No Kill will happen.
Mafia will kill him and get rid of one of suspects for free.
Or Mafia will kill someone else, clearing T-Bone.

Why not? I find T-Bone powerful as Confirmed Townie. And stopping kill in theory could be useful.

call me old fashioned, but I'll always advocate for elimming the scummiest player on any given gameday. I'd rather we elim the top suspect today, and then use the track on the 2nd top suspect tonight. In the unlikely event T-Bone is town, it's unlikely he ever gets NKed here, and if T-Bone is scum we don't learn anything from him no-killing again.

I'm very much bought into the idea of tracking a consensus scumread, but not the top scumread because we need to elim someone.

[Battle Mage]

The problem with that is now T-Bone knows he's being tracked so if we keep him alive and he's scum then he just no kills and were back to where we started. Or scum choose to no kill to frame T-Bone. I do agree town-confirmed T-Bone would be very powerful.

Town is in a really good position right now with a lot of near confirmed town, a flipped scum, and a very small pool. If we're wrong on T-Bone then we use the info gained and I'm sure we can find the right person next day

I struggle to imagine that T-Bone scum would be killing tonight regardless, given he chose not to kill last night when he was on the council and knew he wasn't being tracked.

[Battle Mage]

I mean, do you anticipate that your partner is gonna ghost you? I don't think I would.

If not Nono though, who are you looking at and why?

There's an in between though. A50 and Nono is too much.

I'm looking at you, if not yessiree, if not BM. Everyone else has a reason to be basically clear or highly townread. We eliminate you, get info overnight, reevaluate everyone's pools.

Do you think I'm scum or not?

You're flipping me for info??? If I was scum it would end the game, no info needed.

So if you don't think I'm scum, then there's no reason to flip me. This doesn't make sense.

Are you posting like you already know I'm town? What is this?

I know I'm not the first person to say this of T-Bone, but this screams 'scum thinking they were caught for the wrong reasons'.

[Battle Mage]

I have iron reason to not eluminate T-Bone. This reason probably should be obvious, but still.

What's the reason?

[Battle Mage]

Raya, for what it's worth, I am a straight forward player. WIFOM is a bad tool and I don't set out to create it. Do with that information what you will.

I at least don't want you to be the elim today anymore I don't think. I'd rather go elsewhere and see what we can come up with with the info we get next night.

I can't seem to get rid of the thought that BM and T-Bone is TvS in some order and I'm being manipulated by one of you but that could just be my paranoia speaking.

If Moz doesn't make that much sense, and T-Bone is actually just town. And yessiree has a higher chance of being clear because scum could have killed then maybe nono is the best choice.

call me prejudiced against women but I just can't see this coming from a cold, calculating and cunning woman, pitting T-Bone against Battle Mage just so she can look like a paranoid townie trying to navigate through the destruction in its wake - it's notably genuine indecisiveness that stems from a lack of information on either party's alignment, which points to town!rayas for me

I think that's a small leap. Raya had generally tried to stay out of that dispute, and when she had been involved, it was generally to agree with whoever was posting at the time. It was only later when she was brought into focus herself, that she was more actively engaged. So I don't think a hypothetical scum-Raya would have been required to do anything cold, calculating or cunning here - just use the obvious battle in progress as a route to 2 mis-elims. What stood out to me was her request that I volunteer to be elimmed tomorrow if T-Bone flips town - which fits that profile, and the narrative of scum who require mis-elims on the A50 wagon to win.

[T-Bone]

The problem with that is now T-Bone knows he's being tracked so if we keep him alive and he's scum then he just no kills and were back to where we started. Or scum choose to no kill to frame T-Bone. I do agree town-confirmed T-Bone would be very powerful.

Town is in a really good position right now with a lot of near confirmed town, a flipped scum, and a very small pool. If we're wrong on T-Bone then we use the info gained and I'm sure we can find the right person next day

I struggle to imagine that T-Bone scum would be killing tonight regardless, given he chose not to kill last night when he was on the council and knew he wasn't being tracked.

It's as if...

but that would require common sense...

[T-Bone]

Don't think about it too hard. You might realize that killing makes way more sense for scum!bone than no killing.

[Battle Mage]

Yeah, protecting no one was sane decision.

No matter how good and town someone looks, he could be mafia, even BM. So trading life of Townie-Townie for life of confirmed by track is insanely useful, so i don't understand what BM had.

eh fine, if i was wrong, i'll own it. my sense last night was that this game should be pretty easy, with a majority pool of probable town and a narrow scumpool, and my main thought was about blocking a kill to keep 1 more probable townie in the game to maximise our day-elims. The way today has played out so far, with the wagon on Nono, it doesn't seem that there is such a clear consensus about the townpool/scumpool, so perhaps it was wrong in hindsight. Although from my own perspective, if the decision last night had any impact, it was to save my own life, and I think my contribution today has been a net benefit to the town - especially if T-Bone is the final scum.

I don't think the protect decision has much bearing in any case, and I feel much more strongly about using the track on someone where it might result in a red-check.

Thinking back to the discussion last night, T-Bone's original proposal was for No protect, track T-Bone. Which is consistent with the idea that T-Bone never intended to kill anyway, but wanted 100% confirmation that no kill was attempted - to enable him to push the bogus rhetoric of "scum no-killing is inconceivable, T-Bone would never do that" as a means to secure some much needed towncred.

[Battle Mage]

I'm using hyperbolic language to get my point across.

It was my mistake not to fight harder in our council topic. We'd be in a much better place had I done so.

I'd argue you're deliberately lying to paint me in a negative light and paint yourself in a positive light. Hyperbole is like exaggeration for emphasis, not saying something completely factually false with no illustrative benefit. More like hyper bollocks

Is this what happens when you vote people in power and have them work together? You get the most pointless, annoying, and pedantic arguments ever about He said/She said/I said/We did/We didn't/I never said/. Actually feels like I'm watching k-drama dude.

There should be an option to SACK an entire council for all being omage bollocks

welcome to democracy