Open 808: The Council Has Spoken

[Artemiana]

Besides the fact that I am still experiencing those issues, and I've flipped on tbone scum a long time ago and have been pushing for that to he town, and my preferred wagon nono as scum, I mean...

I'm trying to figure out which goddess you are supposed to be so I can make fun of your bootleg internet but the closest search result I got (Artemia) was Brine Shrimp

I am the daughter of apollo!

[Enchant]

You can just realize I'm right and say it with me....eliminate Battle Mage tomorrow.

We will see.

If you are both townie, that's huge drawback though. Don't see reason to not listen to you.

[brassherald]

A Council for Night 2 of Battle Mage, Artemiana and Enchant has been selected, and no votes for them will be acknowledged. They will receive a link at the start of Night 2 for their private thread.

Elim Voting 2.03

T-Bone (3):

Battle Mage, yessiree, Raya36, Nono, Enchant

Nono (3):

Artemiana, T-Bone,mozamis

With 8 alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate.
An elimination has been achieved.

[brassherald]

T-Bone has been eliminated, he was a

Vanilla Townie

Night 2 now begins and will end in (expired on 2021-04-11 08:45:00)

[/quote]

[brassherald]

Sorry to have missed yesterday busy weekend will resolve night actions now

[brassherald]

Night 2 ended, Enchant has been killed he was a

Vanilla Townie

Council Voting 3.00

Not Voting (6):

yessiree, Artemiana, Nono, mozamis, Battle Mage, Raya36

Remember, a valid vote for council will be three players within a heal tag, the council will be locked in when 4 players propose the same three person council.

Elim Voting 3.00

Not Voting (6):

yessiree, Artemiana, Nono, mozamis, Battle Mage, Raya36

With 6 alive, it takes 4 votes to eliminate.
Day 3 will end without a council or an elimination in (expired on 2021-04-22 08:34:00)

[mozamis]

dont vote for BM, that was town v town.
Almost certainly gonna vote for Nono, but will skim Enchant's ISO first.
Still bit susoicious if arte too.

[mozamis]

Council: Moz, BM,?

[Raya36]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

[yessiree]

Enchant being killed should point to scum on the council. There's no way scum is bold, (or dumb) enough to target a council member when they know neither the tracker nor the doctor target

[yessiree]

I did my homework and re-read Tbone vs BM, especially #710, and I find BM's reasoning for pushing TBone to be disingenuous. The kill last night also reinforces scum!BM imo.

[yessiree]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

I think this is a pretty good outlook of the gamestate, minus me being in the pool of course.

I'll vote Raya + Arte + ideally me for council. And my pool is probably BM -> moz -> nono, in this order. I'll compromise on nono being on the council if I absolutely have to

[Battle Mage]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

We have a greencheck, but not sure if we're claiming it - will leave it to Artemiana's judgement, given the amount of time wasted on arguing about night actions yesterday.

From the above, doesn't seem like your reads have changed at all in light of T-Bone's flip, which is interesting. Then again, seems you're not that fussy, given your pool is every player except yourself and Arte (and Arte on the basis you "feel pretty good" about them?) I'm not vibing with it after how diligently and carefully you considered reads yesterday, and the amount of oscillation then compared to static reads with 2 flips?

For me...I'll obviously be re-reading.

[Battle Mage]

I did my homework and re-read Tbone vs BM, especially #710, and I find BM's reasoning for pushing TBone to be disingenuous. The kill last night also reinforces scum!BM imo.

can you talk me through both points?

[Raya36]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

I think this is a pretty good outlook of the gamestate, minus me being in the pool of course.

I'll vote Raya + Arte + ideally me for council. And my pool is probably BM -> moz -> nono, in this order. I'll compromise on nono being on the council if I absolutely have to

I'd vote for me, art, and ideally not you

[Battle Mage]

Enchant being killed should point to scum on the council. There's no way scum is bold, (or dumb) enough to target a council member when they know neither the tracker nor the doctor target

depends how they fancied their chances of surviving an extra dayphase? if scum didn't kill last night we'd have 7 players left, which guarantees 3 elims to hit the final scum. now we may have 2 or 3 - depending on what happens tonight, if it gets that far.

[Raya36]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

We have a greencheck, but not sure if we're claiming it - will leave it to Artemiana's judgement, given the amount of time wasted on arguing about night actions yesterday.

From the above, doesn't seem like your reads have changed at all in light of T-Bone's flip, which is interesting. Then again, seems you're not that fussy, given your pool is every player except yourself and Arte (and Arte on the basis you "feel pretty good" about them?) I'm not vibing with it after how diligently and carefully you considered reads yesterday, and the amount of oscillation then compared to static reads with 2 flips?

For me...I'll obviously be re-reading.

Not my call but I really think claiming it is a good idea. We're at a point we could really use info like that to maybe fully solve the game

No my reads haven't changed too much except I feel stronger about you being scum. moz and nono are townreads also. They're just there for if the info from the council gave me reason to believe I'm wrong about you and yessiree. My reason for art has not changed which is what I meant by I still feel good about them

I guess the better way to write it would be

Art

Moz, nono

yessiree

BM

[yessiree]

I did my homework and re-read Tbone vs BM, especially #710, and I find BM's reasoning for pushing TBone to be disingenuous. The kill last night also reinforces scum!BM imo.

can you talk me through both points?

It's late for me, so can't type a lot right now. But the gist of it is that your premise for pushing TBone is flawed from the beginning - it started from a misrepresentation of his motivation behind his choice of council actions and you continued down that path. In retrospect I shouldn't have skimmed because I would've caught onto it but I just didn't feel like reading walls at the time

As for the second point, I've already explained above. Killing a council member from outside the council is inconceivable, and since you, Arte, and Enchant were the council last night.

[yessiree]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

I think this is a pretty good outlook of the gamestate, minus me being in the pool of course.

I'll vote Raya + Arte + ideally me for council. And my pool is probably BM -> moz -> nono, in this order. I'll compromise on nono being on the council if I absolutely have to

I'd vote for me, art, and ideally not you

that's fine with me. You already know my position anyway

[Battle Mage]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

We have a greencheck, but not sure if we're claiming it - will leave it to Artemiana's judgement, given the amount of time wasted on arguing about night actions yesterday.

From the above, doesn't seem like your reads have changed at all in light of T-Bone's flip, which is interesting. Then again, seems you're not that fussy, given your pool is every player except yourself and Arte (and Arte on the basis you "feel pretty good" about them?) I'm not vibing with it after how diligently and carefully you considered reads yesterday, and the amount of oscillation then compared to static reads with 2 flips?

For me...I'll obviously be re-reading.

Not my call but I really think claiming it is a good idea. We're at a point we could really use info like that to maybe fully solve the game

The intention was not to claim, assuming none of us died. I think it's finely balanced - there is value in seeing how players behave at the start of today, with some extra knowledge. But there is a risk of information not being verifiable in subsequent days if Artemiana or I die, if we haven't claimed it today.

No my reads haven't changed too much except I feel stronger about you being scum.

Why?

moz and nono are townreads also.

They're just there for if the info from the council gave me reason to believe I'm wrong about you and yessiree. My reason for art has not changed which is what I meant by I still feel good about them

I guess the better way to write it would be

Art

Moz, nono

yessiree

BM

I'm not sure that came through at all in your previous post - you were very discerning yesterday, and that seemed pretty laissez-faire.

Can you explain why a result from last night would mean you put Nono and Moz back in the pool? There is a reason I ask.

[Battle Mage]

I did my homework and re-read Tbone vs BM, especially #710, and I find BM's reasoning for pushing TBone to be disingenuous. The kill last night also reinforces scum!BM imo.

can you talk me through both points?

It's late for me, so can't type a lot right now. But the gist of it is that your premise for pushing TBone is flawed from the beginning - it started from a misrepresentation of his motivation behind his choice of council actions and you continued down that path. In retrospect I shouldn't have skimmed because I would've caught onto it but I just didn't feel like reading walls at the time

I don't really wanna spend ages debating T-Bone stuff again today, but that's total BS - I may have been wrong but my arguments in respect of him were entirely logical and his position on me was (in hindsight) just OMGUS.

Come back to it when you have time, and we can talk it through point by point.

As for the second point, I've already explained above. Killing a council member from outside the council is inconceivable, and since you, Arte, and Enchant were the council last night.

I guess it's that sort of belief which is why someone outside the council might kill on council - a risk, but maybe worth taking to get an NK on a solid town player and another mis-elim. Plus elimming 2 council members increases their chances of getting on the council. Also it becomes a bit WIFOMy, because why would scum on council kill on council if your suggestion was correct?

[Battle Mage]

Council: Moz, BM,?

I think with 6 players left, we should only actually select the council towards the end of the day, once we are approaching a consensus on the elim. Otherwise half the players have immunity which constrains our ability to properly challenge everyone.

[yessiree]

I did my homework and re-read Tbone vs BM, especially #710, and I find BM's reasoning for pushing TBone to be disingenuous. The kill last night also reinforces scum!BM imo.

can you talk me through both points?

It's late for me, so can't type a lot right now. But the gist of it is that your premise for pushing TBone is flawed from the beginning - it started from a misrepresentation of his motivation behind his choice of council actions and you continued down that path. In retrospect I shouldn't have skimmed because I would've caught onto it but I just didn't feel like reading walls at the time

I don't really wanna spend ages debating T-Bone stuff again today, but that's total BS - I may have been wrong but my arguments in respect of him were entirely logical and his position on me was (in hindsight) just OMGUS.

Come back to it when you have time, and we can talk it through point by point.

As for the second point, I've already explained above. Killing a council member from outside the council is inconceivable, and since you, Arte, and Enchant were the council last night.

I guess it's that sort of belief which is why someone outside the council might kill on council - a risk, but maybe worth taking to get an NK on a solid town player and another mis-elim. Plus elimming 2 council members increases their chances of getting on the council. Also it becomes a bit WIFOMy, because why would scum on council kill on council if your suggestion was correct?

I wouldn't say you were logical. The push for TBone was illogical. I would say you were rational by showing a lot of conviction in what you were saying. That doesn't mean you can't be scum, because scum can also appear to be rational, and both you and TBone were making some valid points, so no one really picked up on the subtleties. I feel like if you were town, you would be more interested in re-considerikg the scumread on TBone, or at least humor the possibility of it being That.

But trust me, I don't want to torture myself to debate point by point either. And if you were scum, it'd be pointless anyway. But anywho, more later. Sleep time for me

[Raya36]

The intention was not to claim, assuming none of us died. I think it's finely balanced - there is value in seeing how players behave at the start of today, with some extra knowledge. But there is a risk of information not being verifiable in subsequent days if Artemiana or I die, if we haven't claimed it today.

Maybe hold off for the first part of today then claim after everyone has checked in or something?

No my reads haven't changed too much except I feel stronger about you being scum.

Why?

Mainly PoE, T-Bone interactions, the NK being in the council as yessiree said. I can go into more detail tomorrow. I have an exam worth 60% tonight and I don't have the time or energy right now.

I'm not sure that came through at all in your previous post - you were very discerning yesterday, and that seemed pretty laissez-faire.

Can you explain why a result from last night would mean you put Nono and Moz back in the pool? There is a reason I ask.

Nono and Moz were always in the position of being my backup pool. Nothing happened overnight that changed that. But if for example we cleared one of BM and yessiree and the other was interaction cleared, or we eliminate them and we're wrong I would then look in Nono and Moz.

[Battle Mage]

I did my homework and re-read Tbone vs BM, especially #710, and I find BM's reasoning for pushing TBone to be disingenuous. The kill last night also reinforces scum!BM imo.

can you talk me through both points?

It's late for me, so can't type a lot right now. But the gist of it is that your premise for pushing TBone is flawed from the beginning - it started from a misrepresentation of his motivation behind his choice of council actions and you continued down that path. In retrospect I shouldn't have skimmed because I would've caught onto it but I just didn't feel like reading walls at the time

I don't really wanna spend ages debating T-Bone stuff again today, but that's total BS - I may have been wrong but my arguments in respect of him were entirely logical and his position on me was (in hindsight) just OMGUS.

Come back to it when you have time, and we can talk it through point by point.

As for the second point, I've already explained above. Killing a council member from outside the council is inconceivable, and since you, Arte, and Enchant were the council last night.

I guess it's that sort of belief which is why someone outside the council might kill on council - a risk, but maybe worth taking to get an NK on a solid town player and another mis-elim. Plus elimming 2 council members increases their chances of getting on the council. Also it becomes a bit WIFOMy, because why would scum on council kill on council if your suggestion was correct?

I wouldn't say you were logical. The push for TBone was illogical. I would say you were rational by showing a lot of conviction in what you were saying. That doesn't mean you can't be scum, because scum can also appear to be rational, and

both you and TBone were making some valid points, so no one really picked up on the subtleties

.

I feel like if you were town, you would be more interested in re-considerikg the scumread on TBone, or at least humor the possibility of it being That.

But trust me, I don't want to torture myself to debate point by point either. And if you were scum, it'd be pointless anyway. But anywho, more later. Sleep time for me

I'm less concerned about the implications of that debate for my alignment, and more about what an exposition of your claim I was not "logical" might tell me about yours. On the blue - I'm interested in what you now consider to be the valid points vs the false premises. It feels an easy claim to make to throw shade, but is there any credible substance behind it, or are you making it up (and hoping everyone else shies away from the detail so you don't get called out on it)? On the red, can you point me to where T-Bone reconsidered his read on me, or humoured an alternative possibility? Even in spite of me pushing to engage with him on facts and logical argument (rather than AtE and hyperbole which characterised much of yesterday)? Spoiler: he didn't, but flipped town.

There's a few things I'm also struggling with where you're concerned:

1. From a quick look at your ISO, you were a keen proponent of the T-Bone wagon...right up until it looked set to go over, and then you began walking it back a bit (although not with any commanding voice or obvious intent to derail it).
2. Knowing my own alignment, I figure scum would be very keen to fan the flames on the T-Bone-BM conflict. Mozamis (the only other player who didn't elim A50) did the exact opposite - pointedly trying to foster cohesion, and has continued that approach today.
3. Your claim today that scum off-council would not kill on council, doesn't accord with your claim yesterday that a hypothetical Yes-scum would have never thought to no-kill, given that you failed to note that there is no difference between killing on-council or off-council for an off-council scum, as we had telegraphed quite clearly that we weren't going to use the protect. Off-council scum would obviously kill on-council, so drawing up a false distinction to paint that as "inconceivable" to cover for yourself is a bad look.

I'm softening slightly on Raya on the basis that, it feels weird for Raya-scum to not kill whilst on the council, and then kill when not on the council, when I'm not sure the benefit outweighs the risk for her, as it would for somebody more widely suspected.

I'd like to hear from others, but a full ISO on Yessirree will be next up.