Welcome New Mafia Listmod: Aristophanes

[Pine]

Who?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah I'm going to be the bad guy (girl?) and point out the obvious.

We just had a major grooming scandal with an offsite discord.

We also had NS and Rachmarie and stuff back in the day.

We promised we'd not let it go again and yet here we are.

Hiring someone who was suspended and removed from their post for INAPPROPRIATE COMMUNICATION WITH A MINOR.

Literal MONTHS, not EVEN after the grooming incident.

Who was only cleared because... and I quote

"it was a poor joke"

like how do you even make a bad joke like that? oops i'm soliciting minors haha what a funny?

I'm sorry but even IF it was a joke and you know what, benefit of the doubt, Ari seems a decent folk, let's say it was and he was just too dumb to understand what he was doing.

I don't want someone who can't tell that a joke of that manner is inappropriate anywhere near the site power structure.

I don't CARE how much you've matured or grown. That should be a fucking disqualifying event for a hire in ALL CASES. FOREVER.

This is some real bullshit.

Yeah this was on the top of page 2 but some mod shenaniganry pushed it back to bottom of page 1.

So I'm gonna just quote this again onto page 2.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'll take "Jerk It" for 500 Alex

Just so everyone has access to the same info and can see the same decisions that were made. Feel free to read a few of the other gems in this game.

[Ythan]

Yeah this was on the top of page 2 but some mod shenaniganry pushed it back to bottom of page 1.

Not great.

[PJ.]

smh my head pine.

[Pine]

smh my head pine.

There was no intention there - I posted without seeing LLD’s post and tried to delete it, I must have screwed that up somehow.

No one is sweeping anything under the rug.

[PJ.]

[Pine]

I mean, think whatever you want, but even if that had been the intention, that would have been about the weakest attempt to stifle discussion possible. If I’d really wanted to, I would have deleted LLD’s post, not mine.

Her concerns are real and probably ought to be talked about. I don’t agree with her conclusions, and I think comparing Ari to NS or votato is wildly comparing apples and oranges. That doesn’t reduce the validity of the concern.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I've decided that it's best that all of this is shown here. I don't feel like having this conversation a second time in public with you and I especially don't think that:

If Korina had been a single year older, Ari’s comments would not have been problematic.

Is a particularly fucking terrible response, regardless of things. I know what you meant and I don't think it's reasonable anyway.

To put it bluntly, there is a reason that as a mandatory reporter in my job I don't differentiate between joke and serious.

To put it bluntly, there is a reason that we don't let people who are on the sex offender list, many of whom are reformed or even did very little, near a fucking school.

Ari doesn't have to be banned or shunned. Ari just can't be in a position of power and these responses show that maybe you shouldn't be either.

[PJ.]

[Nachomamma8]

I agree with LLD. This is a mistake.

I have no doubt in my mind that what Ari did was misguided as opposed to malicious - I don't think he is a bad person as opposed to some other people that have been purged from the site. I have no doubt in my mind that he has experienced a lot of personal growth and in no way do I want to minimize that. However, the sort of joking that he did with minors that LLD linked to is the type of thing that creates an atmosphere where pedophiles thrive - joking with minors about explicit stuff like that normalizes it which makes it more difficult for young, vulnerable kids to recognize when their boundaries are being crossed. When I joined this site, I was that young and vulnerable kid and I was blinded to how messed up NS's stuff in part because people witnessed it or let it slide or because people joked around with me in ways they shouldn't have. We need leaders who will recognize and stamp out these things earlier so that the new generation doesn't deal with the same crap as the old one, ESPECIALLY on the heels of an incident on the scale of votato et. all., and I don't think that Ari is the one to do it.

I am afraid that Ari will be faced with reports or situations that are similar to what he's experienced and will let them slide because he sympathizes with them, has good intentions because he had good intentions in the past, or that he will be hesitant to come down on people who are doing similar things because he doesn't want to come across as hypocritical. I again don't have anything against him personally, but this new position was an opportunity to course correct in order to prevent similar situations happening in the future and instead we just dropped the ball.

[D3f3nd3r]

I am afraid that Ari will be faced with reports or situations that are similar to what he's experienced and will let them slide because he sympathizes with them, has good intentions because he had good intentions in the past, or that he will be hesitant to come down on people who are doing similar things because he doesn't want to come across as hypocritical. I again don't have anything against him personally, but this new position was an opportunity to course correct in order to prevent similar situations happening in the future and instead we just dropped the ball.

Ari's been in this situation at least once and has tried to get me to "give ... a chance to grow" to someone after I told him this other person had relatively recently made some homophobic comments, so this is a very valid point

[zoraster]

I appreciate the feedback, Nacho and LLD.

Just to be clear: I am ultimately the person who makes the call on staffing decisions. I do so primarily with the advice of the relevant moderators (listmods in this case) and secondarily other staff people, but the decisions are mine. So to the extent it is a mistake, that's my mistake and not others'. I'll take blame for almost any other failings of the site, but in those cases it's usually less direct responsibility than staffing where I make the call directly. So I'd encourage people to place their ire or disappointment toward me and not others.

Ari addressed our concerns internally directly and responsibly, and obviously I have had no other reports or inklings similar to the behavior that I removed him for in the past. Still, I have a lot to think about, and I'm certainly fallible.

[Untrod Tripod]

My condolences, Ari!

[Korina]

Spoiler: My entire opinion on this

Hi, so, because I know eventually my name will be brought up in this, I feel I should give my entire opinion on the entire matter, and try to provide some context about what happened originally.

I would like to state right now, in bold, italics, and underlined, that I am not defending what happened in that game—I am merely providing my opinion on it, and my opinions on Ari being a list-mod again.

I acknowledge, to begin with, that the comments both Ari and I made in that game were wholly inappropriate—there is no disputing that. I also acknowledge that I personally crossed the line in the first place by making those comments while being a minor. I will not try to defend myself on that front—it was wrong, I acknowledge that—however, I will try to give some context to the best of my memory. I can tell you for a fact that I didn't care that much about the comments at that point because the entire game was meant to be a joke. They didn't bother me at all, I personally saw nothing wrong with them—I merely saw it as a joke. I realize that they were jokes made in very poor taste, but I still saw them as a joke.

I still regret posting those things in that game, and I still regret my actions regarding what happened with Ari following it. I can also confirm for a fact that Ari and I haven't ever spoken until very recently because of it. We only have a few DMs in the days of that, mostly about me trying to take the fall for Ari instead, because I genuinely felt bad about it. Ari did not speak to me until August 14th, 2019—well over a year after it happened—to apologize to me for how he acted. I did not respond to that because I still had very mixed feelings about the entire situation. The next time we spoke to each other was yesterday, when I congratulated him on becoming a list-mod again.

Now, I should move onto my opinions regarding Ari becoming a list-mod. I do not agree with the notion that Ari should be banned from any position of power due to one previous infraction. Zor himself said it—he has gotten no reports of anything like it, so we can safely assume it's just a one-time accident. If it had happened multiple times, yes, I would 100% agree that Ari shouldn't be given list-mod again. I also think that comparing Ari to the likes of votato or Krazy in terms of what he did is an extreme over-reaction. I am all for giving Ari a second chance, albeit scrutinizing his decisions a little bit more. Do I think we should sweep this entirely under the rug and forget about it? No. I know this sounds really petty, but if I can't forgive myself for doing this, then we shouldn't just sweep it under the rug. Do I think that Ari should be banned from ever being a list-mod again? No. It was a one-time thing, he has apologized for it, and Zor has said he hasn't gotten any reports similar to it from anyone.

If anyone has any questions about it, I will be happy to answer either on here, or on Discord. My discord tag is Korina#0359.

[zoraster]

Ari has been removed from being a listmod. After hearing from quite a few people, I see I've made a mistake with this posting, and while the instinct to double down and defend someone who I respect as much as Ari is strong, I realize that overall it is the correct response. I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to contact me or post here. While Ari answered our concerns convincingly and has otherwise shown a great deal of growth, I appreciate that this is an instance where internal understanding is insufficient. Most of the time I am willing to let people be upset about staffing choices when I think the staffing choices serve the site best, but in this case I don't think that's appropriate.

I owe several people/groups of people apologies:

1. Aristophanes himself, first and foremost. Ari has so far as I know done nothing to deserve this since his original removal except love the site and do a lion's share of work. I owe him an apology on two counts: first, subjecting him to this scrutiny that I should have anticipated (outside of the staff's scrutiny) by accepting him for the role and secondly for removing him from a role for reasons that I should have given more credence before. I just want to make it clear as much as I can that Ari is not being removed for anything he has done since he was removed before but largely because of my own mistakes.

2. The staff. Being someone on the staff hasn't always been easy, but I hope as the admin to provide as much stability and clarity as I can in my decision making. I didn't achieve that here. The removal of Ari will be hurtful to many on my team, and I shouldn't have put them in a spot where that was the case.

3. All the people who have provided feedback both here and privately. For many, it's not easy to speak up. I appreciate the largely constructive way it's been approached, but you shouldn't have been put into a position where you needed to do so.

In the coming days, we'll hopefully return with one of the several very strong candidates we had previously. I hope whoever it is will be made to feel welcome.