Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1-6

Nachomamma8

(4): Venus Fly Trap, Infinity 324, notscience, SirCakez

SirCakez

(2): Leafeon and Glaceon, Nachomamma8

Not_Mafia

(2): Disaster Cartel, Not_Mafia

notscience

(1): The Bulge

Leafeon and Glaceon

(1): Kismet

Disaster Cartel

(1): Salsabil Faria

Not Voting

(1): Brave Heart Lion

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Deadline: April 26, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-04-25 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

Brave Heart Lion is v/la until April 15
Salsabil Farai is v/la until April 16
-

[Venus Fly Trap]

i feel like i might outsource reading the bulge to not science

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

ffery you are very good at getting pagetops, i am super impressed

[notscience]

I won't give you a definite for a while as a heads up

I might tease either direction but I'll let you know when I'm confident in it

I think we're on the same page re:nacho and cakez!

[Venus Fly Trap]

that's fair
like idk what to do with him thus far but from how you're interacting with him it seems like he's a high-priority sort for you + that you sort of expect that you *will* be able to sort him
and i townread you
so like altogether maybe just waiting a bit and having someone else do the legwork might be easier lol

also ya i for nacho/cakez their mutual voting + interactions are kinda icky

~ skitter

[Kismet]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=85994 some salsa scum meta (do not read on sepia)

possibly not the only reason i linked that game just now you tell me

don't feel like i'd be able to meta her w/ any kind of confidence; and she played pretty well in this game only kinda just getting inched out of a win at the very end

i'm a little worried about the giant pass nacho is willing to give and i liked noddy's reaction to nacho's pushing it his way

[skitter30]

this promotes the unwnd theory!
i will take a look!

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

this promotes the unwnd theory!
i will take a look!

~ skitter

>.>

[Venus Fly Trap]

huh she actually has a wider range than i would have guessed, with decent tone + activity
but she's kinda trending towards short declaritive statements/questions and not as much like 'in the moment trying to sort out what she's thinking' if that makes sense. she's almost more definitive/assertive in this scumgame than in the towngame i saw her in.
i was kinda liking her before and still think beeboy's take is kinda bad and like the opposite from how she ought to be read but i'm not as confident as i was before

~ skitter

[SirCakez]

@cakes

I already made my stance on N_M clear

actually I went through your ISO and couldn’t find any “clear stance” about NM whatsoever. I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned that NM is usually town when he’s being wagoned, like in panic room. That makes me think you’re trying not to lean too hard one way or the other on an NM wagon in case it does actually go through.

re: opinion on Nacho, like I said I don’t understand how someone comes to the conclusion that NM is the most valuable elim we can make D1. I don’t buy that this is a genuine town thought process from nacho. I think it’s more likely that nacho is trying to sacrifice a buddy to an elim so that he gets to direct an NK than scum!nacho trying to miselim the LHF town!NM so that he can sacrifice someone on his team who is presumably more valuable to his team than NM is to town. why ever go after such LHF like that when you have to sacrifice a partner for it? ergo, scumbuddies.

- lilith

you're literally ignoring me, so you can stop pretending that you're trying to read me whatsoever. "waiting on Lilith to give town pings" okay well how exactly are you doing that if you're not even reading my posts, and in particular the parts of those posts that are addressed to you?

- lilith

I missed this post somehow, I always address things aimed at me.
The meta that I had where NM is town if he is being wagoned has been proven not true so I don't use that anymore.

i've fallen for the not maf policy yeet too many times

I guess this was not clear enough but I have 0 interest in elimming NM today.

[Kismet]

ultimately this was always less about salsa and more about nacho to me in that i think her bringing up 5 is just nothing rather than the First Wednesday of the Month Town Tornado Siren Testing Drill he's saying it is

but, she might be town, and sometimes nacho just has these tonal reads that just fucking click.

[SirCakez]

Done reading. Disaster Cartel is AWFUL and I do not want to move my vote. Nacho is also just ??????? leaning towards scum. All of the hydras are not good actually.

Not crazy about notsci, L+G, or Venus Fly Trap. I can have lots of scumreads in this game

don't most of these people not like nacho?

I don't like your approach to this game. It feels too passive.

also, uh, passive is not a word i use to describe notscience here, this kinda feels like buzzword-y handwave-y sort of shade

Do they? I'm not doing well keeping track of things this game.
Reread notsci's ISO. He's not really advocating for much actively. He feels laidback.

this post just doesn't make any sense as town. why is he so opposed to this conversation? it's not like the thread was getting blown up
the "put my face through desk" comment seems like a huge exaggeration

how much of your jk++ did you, like, read?
iirc a fair amt, no? like i remember you talking in the dead pt abt how likely it was that scum would carry out a win
in the context of how that game played out and how much mena wanted to flip nm i think his frustration makes sense ...

not really liking sircakez thus far

pedit yeah i don't actually think it's cabd. i think like unwnd > prism > maybe peta but he's on hiatus but the overlap of like tent + normal isn't that big i don't think
also legends you were scum in? i guess that context makes a bit more sense but you're not, like, being passive tho
pedit2 oh nm. idk i still don't like it. either way i don't think he's being much townie here tho

~ skitter

I read it more earlier than later because I got busy with school so I had to start skimming. I don't remember too much of games I did not play in usually except for my large themes.

[SirCakez]

not feeling very good about this game

[SirCakez]

I had this rando post open in another tab lemme dump it

Popcorn yeah. Nacho reached out too; it wasn't just Tammy. Very similar situation where I opened SRing the slot.

also thinking about this more:
popcorn is a game where you literally can't vote people
it just would not have occurred to me to even try to use that as a basis for a comparison, much less come to the conclusion you came to pretty much on the fly

??????????
I scumread them on open and Nacho tried to get me to change my view in Popcorn. Not being able to vote or not has NO effect on that.

[Kismet]

not feeling very good about this game

would you indulge me as to why?

[SirCakez]

because I can't track things as people are calling out and it's definitely throwing my reads off
too much on my mind these days

[SirCakez]

and like I get why people are SRing me when I'm making factually incorrect statements constantly

[Kismet]

I don't generally consider that to be a scum correlative behavior really

for me i'm more just trying to see the evolution of the nacho stance
i feel like being able to vote does make a difference as this was not really an action open to him in that game but ok, i acknowledge your interpretation of nacho's demeanor toward you

i'm still trying to make up my mind and trying to see where your head is overall; attitudewise stuff like 337 i can see coming from frustrated town which is why i engaged

[Kismet]

trying to make a habit of doing more listening and less judging early and letting the town just town themselves to me and seeing if that works better than some previous recent disasters i've been involved with

[SirCakez]

Yeah he couldn't vote in Popcorn but that hydra has a lot of influence in Popcorn they definitely could have just attacked me and pushed me up the shot queue

[Nachomamma8]

SirCakez:

Nacho reacted pretty much how I'd expect him to as scum here
town!Nacho would reach out before immediately diving for an attack I think

You don't get to play with nice Nacho after you drove me to wanting to gouge my eyeballs out with a McFlurry spoon in Popcorn Mafia. I will not be putting myself through that hell again, and if you want to play the same game that you played with us last time, I won't be only person having a bad time.

I'm hoping the oddball path that you took in order to arrive at scumreading me is faked so that I'm not again the unlucky recipient of a dumb Cakez tunnel, but either way, I want you to explain how your read on me evolved because what has made it into thread makes zero sense. You've talked about my play being weird or not understanding posts:

I think Nacho's play has been bizarre but I don't think this is in the realm of possiblity.

this post doesn't make any sense to me

The reads are similar but I can't reconcile Nacho's play so far this game with mine. Frankly I'm very surprised that our reads are so similar (I didn't notice this during my catchup) because when I read Nacho's posts they feel totally alien to me.

But there's nothing in your ISO that takes the leap from "Nacho is playing weird" to "Nacho is playing like scum". I'm not surprised that you'd try to keep the animosity directed towards me alive - there's enough anti-me sentiment floating around where I'm sure it feels like I can currently be mislynched whereas the longer you keep me alive the greater the chance you'd have to shoot me instead.

If you're town, though. What are you doing? If you also think that I am scum because you disagree with me on a game theory point, cool, join the rest. But just tell me that's why you're scumreading me; the way that the read unfolded instead looks like that you knew that there was a Nacho mislynch push going on that you wanted to join but put the read before the reasons.

Similar views on the game state usually indicate similar POV aka similar alignment

we completely disagree about SRs and who to elim though

So we have the same top townreads.

I am townreading notscience whereas you are not. You are scumreading him for being too passive. I scumread him initially for not being proactive in engaging me on something. The only other disagreement you could be referencing is centering around NM, which is still disagreeing with me on the theory point like everyone else. I get that you don't want to policy lynch him but that doesn't translate to a townread on him.

This is the same shit you do to me in pretty much every iteration where I am town and you are town which unfortunately means you might be town here! Again! You start out by scumreading me and fit reasons to the read afterwards. Those reasons turn out to be incorrect because - surprise surprise - you never gave a shit about them in the first place - but instead of taking the time to reassess you just keep chugging full speed ahead. If you are town. For the love of god. Stop.

In other news, let's look at that Disaster scumread, which is in and of itself a disaster!

Done reading. Disaster Cartel is AWFUL and I do not want to move my vote. Nacho is also just ??????? leaning towards scum. All of the hydras are not good actually.

Strong sentiment. The reasons he gives for the read is the propaganda piece found here. He accuses Mena of being scum because he said that he doesn't want to have a conversation about policying NM again after he went through JK9++ where he talked about being frustrated because no one was listening to him about policying NM.

CAKEZ - why is this scummy? how is it unusual to be frustrated to have a conversation that you just got done having in another game?

Next, Cakez calls Mena scum because him saying that he has one tenative townread means that "he has no development of reads", then strikes doubly hard at the notsci townread. I hate how Cakez is using Mena townreading notsci and me townreading notsci as ammo to attack us with, as if a townread on him is completely unacceptable but the only thing that he's brought up on notsci so far is that he's "too passive". I don't understand why Mena saying that he has one tenative townread on page 4 means that there's no development of reads, so

CAKEZ - why is mena announcing that he has one tenative townread in notsci proof for him having no development in his reads?

[Nachomamma8]

SirCakez:

Nacho reacted pretty much how I'd expect him to as scum here
town!Nacho would reach out before immediately diving for an attack I think

You don't get to play with nice Nacho after you drove me to wanting to gouge my eyeballs out with a McFlurry spoon in Popcorn Mafia. I will not be putting myself through that hell again, and if you want to play the same game that you played with us last time, I won't be only person having a bad time.

I'm hoping the oddball path that you took in order to arrive at scumreading me is faked so that I'm not again the unlucky recipient of a dumb Cakez tunnel, but either way, I want you to explain how your read on me evolved because what has made it into thread makes zero sense. You've talked about my play being weird or not understanding posts:

I think Nacho's play has been bizarre but I don't think this is in the realm of possiblity.

this post doesn't make any sense to me

The reads are similar but I can't reconcile Nacho's play so far this game with mine. Frankly I'm very surprised that our reads are so similar (I didn't notice this during my catchup) because when I read Nacho's posts they feel totally alien to me.

But there's nothing in your ISO that takes the leap from "Nacho is playing weird" to "Nacho is playing like scum". I'm not surprised that you'd try to keep the animosity directed towards me alive - there's enough anti-me sentiment floating around where I'm sure it feels like I can currently be mislynched whereas the longer you keep me alive the greater the chance you'd have to shoot me instead.

If you're town, though. What are you doing? If you also think that I am scum because you disagree with me on a game theory point, cool, join the rest. But just tell me that's why you're scumreading me; the way that the read unfolded instead looks like that you knew that there was a Nacho mislynch push going on that you wanted to join but put the read before the reasons.

Similar views on the game state usually indicate similar POV aka similar alignment

we completely disagree about SRs and who to elim though

So we have the same top townreads.

I am townreading notscience whereas you are not. You are scumreading him for being too passive. I scumread him initially for not being proactive in engaging me on something. The only other disagreement you could be referencing is centering around NM, which is still disagreeing with me on the theory point like everyone else. I get that you don't want to policy lynch him but that doesn't translate to a townread on him.

This is the same shit you do to me in pretty much every iteration where I am town and you are town which unfortunately means you might be town here! Again! You start out by scumreading me and fit reasons to the read afterwards. Those reasons turn out to be incorrect because - surprise surprise - you never gave a shit about them in the first place - but instead of taking the time to reassess you just keep chugging full speed ahead. If you are town. For the love of god. Stop.

In other news, let's look at that Disaster scumread, which is in and of itself a disaster!

Done reading. Disaster Cartel is AWFUL and I do not want to move my vote. Nacho is also just ??????? leaning towards scum. All of the hydras are not good actually.

Strong sentiment. The reasons he gives for the read is the propaganda piece found here. He accuses Mena of being scum because he said that he doesn't want to have a conversation about policying NM again after he went through JK9++ where he talked about being frustrated because no one was listening to him about policying NM.

CAKEZ - why is this scummy? how is it unusual to be frustrated to have a conversation that you just got done having in another game?

Next, Cakez calls Mena scum because him saying that he has one tenative townread means that "he has no development of reads", then strikes doubly hard at the notsci townread. I hate how Cakez is using Mena townreading notsci and me townreading notsci as ammo to attack us with, as if a townread on him is completely unacceptable but the only thing that he's brought up on notsci so far is that he's "too passive". I don't understand why Mena saying that he has one tenative townread on page 4 means that there's no development of reads, so

CAKEZ - why is mena announcing that he has one tenative townread in notsci proof for him having no development in his reads?

[Nachomamma8]

uhhh

idk exactly how to put it so not really?

it was in response to 101 if that helps

How does asking Venus who they'd kill help draw associatives after both heads expressed scumreads on me? Who are you helping draw associatives?

I just don't understand the point of your question - it's as if you asked me who I would policy if I could policy anyone that I wanted immediately after I made the post saying that I wanted to policy NM.

Dancing is no fun if you unvote me before I wake up.

I didn't feel strongly about the scumread when I poked you about it initially - it was more a worry I had when driving to work then something I expected to become a schoolyard fight. I liked the sourness of the response to me. I'm still waiting for the high-level scumhunting, though.

also i am glad to see that my partner did not play after telling me he would

~leaf

Isn't beeboy the one who just doesn't post as scum?

so i've been told yes

~leaf

This is a pretty ballsy post if this hydra is scum. My feeling is that Misty is less likely to draw attention to beeboy's absence if they are scum together.

Are these tiered or not?

Tiered, yes. In order, no.

And like yeh, no shit I haven’t tried reading u yet, hence why i was surprised to see skitt professing a TR on a v unknown quality in a game where there’s like, reasonable incentive for scum to TR each other

I don't love this.
Kismet has put more into the game than anyone else - calling them an "unknown quantity" is silly. If you had specific things from kismet that bothered you, I'd feel differently. Are you a player that's unable to make a read without having meta on someone?

don't think his reasoning is very thorough and seems to be fairly tailored towards not sticking out in thread state, plus some of his reactions (specifically @ DC) felt kinda overblown

Solid observations - these are my thoughts exactly without the anger.

[Nachomamma8]

I don’t get what the value in spending an elim on a scum!NM is and I’m struggling to understand why anyone thinks this is the best play to make.

I don't get why you're still stuck on this to the extent that you are, but since my view on you is steadily changing from "stubborn" to "scummy", I'll play ball.

1) You and Skitter both keep pretending like all I am interested in today is policying Not Mafia or bust. This is patently false. In my entrance, I used stronger rhetoric then I would normally because we were in early RVS stage, and the stronger the rhetoric, the more likely you are to get some responses. Note how I told notscience that diamonds were formed under pressure, implying that I thought that me pushing NM might get an interesting response from him. Note my 59, which implied to skitter that I was being intentionally controversial. Peep me asking Infinity to address my push specifically or peep me analyzing how people responded to my push in order to inform my next push to notscience. I do think there is merit in townies thinking about the extra layer of strategy that the safehouse mechanic gives to the scumteam, and how it lends itself to weak scum players doing their best to lurk through one mislynch so they can be sacrificed. Do I think that this means that speedlynching NM is the most optimal move we can make? No. And if you were looking at my play as a whole instead of looking for things to hold against me, you might see that.

2) There are 5 players on the scumteam - let's name them and order them by most skilled scum player to the least: NachoMamma, NachoDaddy, NachoSister, NachoBrother, NachoDaughter. If the town plays perfectly, then they can stomp the three worst scumplayers and no matter how well NachoMamma and NachoDaddy play, town wins. Now, if the scumteam is given the chance to safehouse NachoDaughter, then town has to kill NachoDaddy to get their three points. If the scumteam safehouses NachoDaughter and NachoBrother then scumteam has to take down NachoMamma. My point was simply that I thought that NotMafia was hands down the worst scum player in this plist and so that any team that includes him would much rather sacrifice him, hence he's a great place to focus initially. I understand that it is an odd line of thought, but this is an odd setup.

like I said, reeeeeeally struggling to see why spending an elim on NM is more valuable than spending an elim on someone who we actually scumread.

Who is arguing that we need to elim NM over people we are actually scumreading? I'm not. And I haven't been for a while.

I mean if something better comes up I'm all for it

nacho trajectory on us: “lilith had good reaction to my push” —> we’re in his scumpool. ???? progression

My approach to this game is such that everyone is guilty until proven innocent. I am also more skeptical about townblocking players in this game simply because finding a small town core is so incredibly powerful. As a result, people can do things that I like but this doesn't necessarily mean they make their way out of the basement.

Your sparknotes are also inaccurate. I liked your reaction to the push, but I also was going back and forth with skitter on her reaction to my push. 223 is also a thing that exists, which means I had to process a push I liked and a push I didn't.

I also don't understand why this is such a sticking point for you - is it really that crazy to like one thing that a person did and not townread them as a result...?

re: opinion on Nacho, like I said I don’t understand how someone comes to the conclusion that NM is the most valuable elim we can make D1. I don’t buy that this is a genuine town thought process from nacho. I think it’s more likely that nacho is trying to sacrifice a buddy to an elim so that he gets to direct an NK than scum!nacho trying to miselim the LHF town!NM so that he can sacrifice someone on his team who is presumably more valuable to his team than NM is to town. why ever go after such LHF like that when you have to sacrifice a partner for it? ergo, scumbuddies.

You may not know me well, but if my goal was to get someone killed, ESPECIALLY someone such as the mayoral candidate of suicide town himself, then I would not attempt to policy lynch them from my first post. Such an action is absolutely bananas, and while I am an insane person, I'm not insane to the point of being stupid as your argument seems to imply.

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry nacho, i was more interested in why that path of argument was chosen over others? Like trying to get into how I would decide those kills as scum that was one of my first thoughts.

Nacho and Cakez can dance

I don't understand what you're asking here. I as scum would sacrifice NM over other people because NM has the lowest floor of anyone here. If another scumpartner was struggling more or a strong townplayer got put within hammer range that might be a different story but otherwise I'd default to sacrificing NM.

in a game with as much scum as this, I'd expect to see a whole lot of ""Agenda"" right at the forefront of discussion, which is exactly what this NM talk feels like

idrk who else I'm vaguely shading there apart from nacho, I was drunk all yesterday evening and only lazily skimmed along, but I'll catch up later and get that figured out.

You're not shading anyone else but me, which is sort of par for the course. I'm interested in hearing what agenda that you thought that I had in trying to policy lynch NM - there are a lot of people who think my actions are weird or bad but no one has really put forward a plausible scum agenda for doing so.

if he's town, he's probably going to be flipbait, sure
but that also means that 'in a game with an absolutely massive scumteam' and he's town there's goign to be a lot of scum trying to drive us towards him, no? like why are you not just scum trying to get that easy flip ...
also in this setup it's not a sure thing that he needs to get flipped anyways as either alignmenet so i'm not sure why you're presenting this as inevitable. also i don't think he always gets misflipped as town

You'd think that if he was town there'd be a lot of scum trying to drive us towards him.
But instead, when I pushed for his death, there was Mena and no one else. Which seems to increase chances of there being scum in {me, Not_Mafia}, no?

I'm not scum trying to get the easy flip because I tried to policy lynch him from page one. I've been around long enough to realize that policy lynching doesn't typically work.

eh not so much that you were gonna escape per se so much as the hard-tunneling part

Why would I be inclined to hard tunnel as scum if I didn't plan on escaping afterwards? What advantage does it offer me?