Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[Nachomamma8]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=85994 some salsa scum meta (do not read on sepia)

possibly not the only reason i linked that game just now you tell me

don't feel like i'd be able to meta her w/ any kind of confidence; and she played pretty well in this game only kinda just getting inched out of a win at the very end

i'm a little worried about the giant pass nacho is willing to give and i liked noddy's reaction to nacho's pushing it his way

I did read her entrance and compared it to her before I started advocating her shining light towniness. I think she's night and day here compared to there; she's inquisitive, she's a bit scattered without having an agenda attached, she's hilariously pure. I expected that notsci would be able to pick up on the same things that I am but apparently he's decided to enroll in the Cabd School of Reading Nacho (tm) and as a result is completely failing in reading me instead.

One of the big weaknesses that new scum players tend to have (and Salsa certainly had in the game you linked) is a difficulty in hiding their agenda. You'll notice a lot of her questions in that game were shallow (aka acting people to elaborate on reasons they didn't explain), she was careful was she expressed suspicion or explained her votes. She was also a heck of a lot more defensive in that game versus here (when she thought I suspected her, she called me paranoid and brushed it off vs there where she seemed to get indignant that someone was "shading her"). Here she's just carefree, more inquisitive, more likely to do things that don't have a clear scum agenda. Instead of just asking people to elaborate on random suspicions, seems like she's genuinely trying to understand the stuff going around her.

And while of course I'll be reanalyzing this read constantly, I'd be very very surprised to see this slot flip scum at this point.

[Leafeon and Glaceon]

hello

i like vft more for skitter's posting on page 13

i don't like nm hopping in, going "oh yeah there's no way i get eliminated d1", then dipping out

~leaf

[Leafeon and Glaceon]

choosing to read thread at 5 am is probably not ideal for my read quality but such is life

~leaf

[Disaster Cartel]

I stg if we have to have another conversation about policy limming and why it’s worth it I will put my face through my desk given the context

-Mena

1 this post just doesn't make any sense as town. why is he so opposed to this conversation? it's not like the thread was getting blown up
2 the "put my face through desk" comment seems like a huge exaggeration

I have one tentative TR so fsr

3 he has no development of reads as stated

I'm not confident notsci is town, should I be?

Notsci is my one TR lol

-Mena

4 and notsci? doesn't make any sense

I wasn’t pissed at you I was just a bit frustrated that EVERYONE was shooting it down

bc I have no baseline or any idea of who it is and that inherently makes me slightly +sus unless it’s hectic (which it apparently isn’t)

I’m not SRing them, I just feel uneasy with the slot

-Mena

5 uneasy but not SRing is such a cop-out

I just really hate the posting around NM and notsci

(1) Did u read any of JK9++ while modding it? Or like, my hydra pt with skitts?

(2) yeah, sure, it is. why does that matter?

(3) bruh there were like 6 pages that I’d skimmed, what are you expecting from me at that point? Besides which, have you ever played with scum!mena before? Bc fabricating reads is not a weakness of my scumgame, especially not SRs

(4) does my entire conversation with notsci have any relevance regarding this..?

(5) see point (3), but like how is this anything other than NAI for me?

-Mena

@cakez

[Disaster Cartel]

As a side note I’m a bit confused why those pro-notmaf haven’t brought up that them killing him d1 (assuming he’s scum) would be super low info. It’s always about “CANT LET HIM ESCAPE”

Like I don’t get why the focus is on removing “weak links” rather than limiting how much information actually goes out?

Bc we get info either way, and this way we’re 1/3 of the way to winning instead of scum being 1/3 of the way to winning

And like, we still get standard info from scum making a NK?

I’m not seeing how the info gain is so bad that it’s not worth it if he’s scum

[Disaster Cartel]

Are these tiered or not?

1 Tiered, yes. In order, no.

And like yeh, no shit I haven’t tried reading u yet, hence why i was surprised to see skitt professing a TR on a v unknown quality in a game where there’s like, reasonable incentive for scum to TR each other

I don't love this.
2 Kismet has put more into the game than anyone else - calling them an "unknown quantity" is silly. If you had specific things from kismet that bothered you, I'd feel differently. 3 Are you a player that's unable to make a read without having meta on someone?

(1) :rolleyes:

(2) This isn’t what I meant by “unknown quality”. I’m not saying they haven’t done anything this game, I’m saying that due to anon I don’t know whether they’re someone who’s good at convincingly faking town thought processes as scum or not, and not knowing that about them makes me wary about slapping down an early read. In the same way, your posting seems towny, esp the large post directed at cakez above, but we’ve played together like, one and a half times and I’m assuming you’re competent enough as scum to fake whatever you’ve done so far, so Im not TRing you.

(3) Following on from that, ofc I’m not incapable of reading people w/out meta but I (a) form reads faster when I’ve played with someone and (b) am typically more confident in my reads on people I’ve played with a bunch, *especially* when I know that person is strong/experienced, all of which I think is v normal

-Mena

[Disaster Cartel]

if he's town, he's probably going to be flipbait, sure
but that also means that 'in a game with an absolutely massive scumteam' and he's town there's goign to be a lot of scum trying to drive us towards him, no? like why are you not just scum trying to get that easy flip ...
also in this setup it's not a sure thing that he needs to get flipped anyways as either alignmenet so i'm not sure why you're presenting this as inevitable. also i don't think he always gets misflipped as town

Because if there is an incredibly bait slot it’s generally better to have that slot removed earlier rather than later

Like, flipping NM in JK9++ was basically just rolling the die, he could very easily have been town that game and then it would have been a scum win. And the longer that you leave a policy lim, the less likely it is to ever happen before lylo, which is part of the entire point of policy limming, because (and we now have confirmation that I was right about this from JK9++) it gets harder not easier to policy someone after D1

If he’s town, and either of nacho or me are scum, how is it worth it to try and get the lim today? Instead of just shutting the fuck up, targeting elsewhere, and then going after NM for not doing anything and potentially having quickhammered in lylo

I think if anything the resistance to doing NM today for what I think are very weak reasons is +scum for him, bc scum have an incentive to not bus this setup

[Disaster Cartel]

Cakez i can see ur online, respond to me

-Mena

[SirCakez]

SirCakez:

Nacho reacted pretty much how I'd expect him to as scum here
town!Nacho would reach out before immediately diving for an attack I think

You don't get to play with nice Nacho after you drove me to wanting to gouge my eyeballs out with a McFlurry spoon in Popcorn Mafia. I will not be putting myself through that hell again, and if you want to play the same game that you played with us last time, I won't be only person having a bad time.

IN MY DEFENSE I came around on y'all last time and then you were NKed anyways

I'm hoping the oddball path that you took in order to arrive at scumreading me is faked so that I'm not again the unlucky recipient of a dumb Cakez tunnel, but either way, I want you to explain how your read on me evolved because what has made it into thread makes zero sense. You've talked about my play being weird or not understanding posts:

I think Nacho's play has been bizarre but I don't think this is in the realm of possiblity.

this post doesn't make any sense to me

The reads are similar but I can't reconcile Nacho's play so far this game with mine. Frankly I'm very surprised that our reads are so similar (I didn't notice this during my catchup) because when I read Nacho's posts they feel totally alien to me.

But there's nothing in your ISO that takes the leap from "Nacho is playing weird" to "Nacho is playing like scum". I'm not surprised that you'd try to keep the animosity directed towards me alive - there's enough anti-me sentiment floating around where I'm sure it feels like I can currently be mislynched whereas the longer you keep me alive the greater the chance you'd have to shoot me instead.

That's because of how long my catchup was. I read like 10 pages of posts in one go, so it wasn't like "hmm this is scummy" "hmm this is weird" it was like a whole bunch of posts that added up at once.

If you're town, though. What are you doing? If you also think that I am scum because you disagree with me on a game theory point, cool, join the rest. But just tell me that's why you're scumreading me; the way that the read unfolded instead looks like that you knew that there was a Nacho mislynch push going on that you wanted to join but put the read before the reasons.

My main hangup is I don't understand your obsession with elimming NM and I don't feel it like town!you at all.
I don't really see a path to elimming you right now anyways, but I am genuinely baffled by your early posts this game in a way that I wasn't in Popcorn.

Similar views on the game state usually indicate similar POV aka similar alignment

we completely disagree about SRs and who to elim though

So we have the same top townreads.

I am townreading notscience whereas you are not. You are scumreading him for being too passive. I scumread him initially for not being proactive in engaging me on something. The only other disagreement you could be referencing is centering around NM, which is still disagreeing with me on the theory point like everyone else. I get that you don't want to policy lynch him but that doesn't translate to a townread on him.

Somebody else already made this point.

This is the same shit you do to me in pretty much every iteration where I am town and you are town which unfortunately means you might be town here! Again! You start out by scumreading me and fit reasons to the read afterwards. Those reasons turn out to be incorrect because - surprise surprise - you never gave a shit about them in the first place - but instead of taking the time to reassess you just keep chugging full speed ahead. If you are town. For the love of god. Stop.

I will back off for now and watch how you develop post-NM push
UNVOTE:

[SirCakez]

In other news, let's look at that Disaster scumread, which is in and of itself a disaster!

Done reading. Disaster Cartel is AWFUL and I do not want to move my vote. Nacho is also just ??????? leaning towards scum. All of the hydras are not good actually.

Strong sentiment. The reasons he gives for the read is the propaganda piece found here. He accuses Mena of being scum because he said that he doesn't want to have a conversation about policying NM again after he went through JK9++ where he talked about being frustrated because no one was listening to him about policying NM.

CAKEZ - why is this scummy? how is it unusual to be frustrated to have a conversation that you just got done having in another game?

I already had this discussion with somebody my dude. I didn't realize Mena was so pissed about NM because I was skimming by the end of JK9++ because of being busy irl.

Next, Cakez calls Mena scum because him saying that he has one tenative townread means that "he has no development of reads", then strikes doubly hard at the notsci townread. I hate how Cakez is using Mena townreading notsci and me townreading notsci as ammo to attack us with, as if a townread on him is completely unacceptable but the only thing that he's brought up on notsci so far is that he's "too passive". I don't understand why Mena saying that he has one tenative townread on page 4 means that there's no development of reads, so

CAKEZ - why is mena announcing that he has one tenative townread in notsci proof for him having no development in his reads?

The read on notsci is not the evidence he has no development - it's the lack of other reads, despite Mena being pretty engaged this game.

[SirCakez]

This is a pretty ballsy post if this hydra is scum. My feeling is that Misty is less likely to draw attention to beeboy's absence if they are scum together.

This would have come up whether or not Misty addressed it

Sorry nacho, i was more interested in why that path of argument was chosen over others? Like trying to get into how I would decide those kills as scum that was one of my first thoughts.

Nacho and Cakez can dance

this post is irking me
why say "we can dance" notsci?

hello

i like vft more for skitter's posting on page 13

i don't like nm hopping in, going "oh yeah there's no way i get eliminated d1", then dipping out

~leaf

kind of gross post
seems like someone who felt like they had to post "content" and threw something out

[SirCakez]

I stg if we have to have another conversation about policy limming and why it’s worth it I will put my face through my desk given the context

-Mena

1 this post just doesn't make any sense as town. why is he so opposed to this conversation? it's not like the thread was getting blown up
2 the "put my face through desk" comment seems like a huge exaggeration

I have one tentative TR so fsr

3 he has no development of reads as stated

I'm not confident notsci is town, should I be?

Notsci is my one TR lol

-Mena

4 and notsci? doesn't make any sense

I wasn’t pissed at you I was just a bit frustrated that EVERYONE was shooting it down

bc I have no baseline or any idea of who it is and that inherently makes me slightly +sus unless it’s hectic (which it apparently isn’t)

I’m not SRing them, I just feel uneasy with the slot

-Mena

5 uneasy but not SRing is such a cop-out

I just really hate the posting around NM and notsci

(1) Did u read any of JK9++ while modding it? Or like, my hydra pt with skitts?

(2) yeah, sure, it is. why does that matter?

(3) bruh there were like 6 pages that I’d skimmed, what are you expecting from me at that point? Besides which, have you ever played with scum!mena before? Bc fabricating reads is not a weakness of my scumgame, especially not SRs

(4) does my entire conversation with notsci have any relevance regarding this..?

(5) see point (3), but like how is this anything other than NAI for me?

-Mena

1. Some of it. Like I've said a few times now I got busy and didn't really pay attention to the tail end.
2. It's too dramatic. Like you're fishing for townreads for your "frustration"
3. I cannot recall a time I have. It just doesn't add up for me because you seem to be fairly engaged but you haven't really put much together.
4. I just don't understand why you are TRing him. But this is not really a point for me SRing you.
5. I always find it scummy when people do this.

[Kismet]

UNVOTE:

[Kismet]

kind of gross post
seems like someone who felt like they had to post "content" and threw something out

I actually had the same general sentiments, even if the post is not very detailed.
I guess I object to the sensationalist "gross" modifier on it.

[Kismet]

(1) :rolleyes:

is this a rolleyes because you think you got a nonanswer here (the answer made sense to me)
or is it a rolleyes because you think you should be higher?

[Leafeon and Glaceon]

seems like someone who felt like they had to post "content" and threw something out

i mean basically

i signed up to hydra and my partner's barely been playing

so im kinda just coasting b/c im not motivated

~leaf

[Kismet]

mena how does skitter look to you in the 13-14 range?

[Kismet]

I actually had the same general sentiments, even if the post is not very detailed.
I guess I object to the sensationalist "gross" modifier on it.

realize i'm not necessarily being clear here -

i had the same sentiments as leaf did about skitter/N_M,

and not the same opinion that you're expressing here

[Infinity 324]

This is a pretty ballsy post if this hydra is scum. My feeling is that Misty is less likely to draw attention to beeboy's absence if they are scum together.

Ehh maybe if she doesn't think anyone in the game knows beeboy? Idk this is pretty weak. Tbf beeboy has posted since then but still no real reads so

[Infinity 324]

Now, if the scumteam is given the chance to safehouse NachoDaughter, then town has to kill NachoDaddy to get their three points.

Ok but as a town we can decide to elim nachodaddy anyway and it's at least based on something, and nachodaddy might even be >rand scum where as a policy on NM would not be. I don't really care about "strongest scum player", I care about being able to tell the difference between someone's townplay and scumplay

[Infinity 324]

I think in a game where a bunch of people know each other the game becomes less about who is charismatic/town-looking enough to avoid the elim and more about who can give town the most doubts as to whether they are scum. By virtue of being unreadable NM is pretty good at the latter

[Kismet]

By virtue of being unreadable NM is pretty good at the latter

I think this is a really concise summary of why the entire initial premise from Nacho didn't click with me.

Also, happy birthday!

[Infinity 324]

Thanks!

And yeah I believe nacho thinks limming NM is protown, I think that much is clear. I'm much less sure he believes this cakez read though.

[SirCakez]

seems like someone who felt like they had to post "content" and threw something out

i mean basically

i signed up to hydra and my partner's barely been playing

so im kinda just coasting b/c im not motivated

~leaf

what was the purpose of the post then?

[fferyllt]

boof