Newbie 2061 | Views of Tallinn | Town wins

[Meuh]

I don’t think you r scum wither way Catboi. So that vote is meh, but i’m still feeling like N_M could be town.

I mean that's understandable if you don't believe me, it's not like I'd claim it's the strongest case even if I feel it's my best lead right now.

Tbh elim me over Catboi, that's probably better for the game, unless he's town and my read is off, but I would

NEVER

make an incorrect read

You should generally never offer yourself up for elimination like this, especially when it's far from guaranteed who the wagon will be on. After all, you know you're town while anyone else is just a guess. You are right that I'm town here, but I hardly claim to be some great scumhunter, my reads are typically not great.

My main worry here is that Norwee stays fixated on me if we're both still here tomorrow. That fixation could be problematic, cause then it could detract from our ability to well, find scum later down the line. If getting rid of me now will lead to more productive days soon then ig there's worse than that. Not my preferred outcome but meh

[Meuh]

Actually now that I think about it, scum would have a win/win tonight. They could kill Norwee, throwing shade on me, or they could keep Norwee alive and let him push on me. Unless Norwee's scum, that is, but I doubt it.

[Meuh]

If my elim is inevitable, wouldn't getting it over with ASAP best? Idk I just feel like if I'm trapped to be elimed, it'll probably better for you guys to shift your focus somewhere else as much as possible.

[marcistar]

Are you actually interested in flipping me? How is that supposed to give information on those two?

If you think Meuh is a better vote, that's fine, I've already said I don't oppose it.

Explain what bothered you about that Samawoodo post?

Like, if I had to pick between the wagons you would be the one i'm most interested in. But this was before norwegienboyees vote on meuh.
(I feel like I need to vote within somewhere thats already voted, because not alot of people are budging, and we need info from a flip.)

Well, meuhs buddying you, and samawoodoos buddying her is how I see it.
So I think generally in most cases, scum wouldn't be buddying scum.
so like if ur scum, meuhs not. if ur town, meuhs not. thats what i was originally thinking but when i think more idk but i still dont like meuh following after you so easily, I don't see a reason for her to.

so then like to explain about samawoodoo, it just seems like he did that because meuh has those kind of thoughts also. (like meuh said ur more townie... and then samawoodoo says ur more townie..) though he could just see meuh as a really townie town leader I guess..?
it just sort of seems like... not really buddying actually but... having too similar thoughts to her..?

[Pearofclubs]

Are you actually interested in flipping me? How is that supposed to give information on those two?

If you think Meuh is a better vote, that's fine, I've already said I don't oppose it.

Explain what bothered you about that Samawoodo post?

Like, if I had to pick between the wagons you would be the one i'm most interested in. But this was before norwegienboyees vote on meuh.
(I feel like I need to vote within somewhere thats already voted, because not alot of people are budging, and we need info from a flip.)

Well, meuhs buddying you, and samawoodoos buddying her is how I see it.
So I think generally in most cases, scum wouldn't be buddying scum.
so like if ur scum, meuhs not. if ur town, meuhs not. thats what i was originally thinking but when i think more idk but i still dont like meuh following after you so easily, I don't see a reason for her to.

so then like to explain about samawoodoo, it just seems like he did that because meuh has those kind of thoughts also. (like meuh said ur more townie... and then samawoodoo says ur more townie..) though he could just see meuh as a really townie town leader I guess..?
it just sort of seems like... not really buddying actually but... having too similar thoughts to her..?

They could also both be town, you know.
Got something coming up once I put words to it properly

[Pearofclubs]

I have a theory and I would love to hear people's thoughts on it.

First off, let's address N-M. Although I'm risking telling him how to obfuscate his playstyle a little bit more than he does already, I've been over his metagame and he seems way more self-destructive and spammy as scum than he does as town. Not a guarantee, but I'm fairly sure that he's safe at this moment. I'm sure that I've just now told him how to better ruin any chance of reading him, but in the interest of this game, I will take that risk.

And Catboi. Your response is completely fair. I'd never considered that others might find faking reads easier than providing incomplete ones.

But let's get into the meat of the theory. VOTE: Norwegianboyee.
Back in 23, Norwee called for N-M to die. You could suggest it was still RVS but at this point Norwee was in fact giving advice to others, in 27 explaining N-M's playstyle as justification for his comment. Marcistar, of course, swung in with a statement of defense for players like N-M, prompting a discussion about how players going after someone like him are likely scum. A discussion which Meuh reacted to, so one can't say that she didn't see it.

With that in mind, why would scum!Meuh choose to go after N-M? A scumplayer should be more careful, especially with something that's been discussed earlier, and Ink's wagon was still in decent enough shape. As things were, I was actually considering switching back over to him, since Catboi had convinced me

enough

of his towniness and Ink was still somewhat questionable. Town!Meuh, on the other hand, might see that things slowing down and agree with the suggestion that our scum team is comfortable with the gamestate. Lacking any other leads, she might default to N-M because, as I've said before, an elim on an unhelpful nullread is better than a random guess. That's a believable train of thought. Of course, seeing such an easy target, especially given the conversation that happened before.

Next, let's address Norwee's early "scumread" on Meuh. It was a rather quick conclusion to come to so early on, still easily during RVS, where people are free to joke around. Could that have been Meuh ineptly trying to plant the idea of Norwee+NM in people's minds? Yes. It

could

have, but I don't know that I put too much faith in that.

Let's address the concept that wagoning N-M is scummy behavior. I agree if we're talking about newer players, or maybe on later days. On day one, an

experienced

scumplayer would LOVE to keep a shitposting randomlol impossible to read player like N-M alive,

especially

given that people attacking N-M so early look scummy. Why? It's really simple. Because N-M isn't going to do ANYTHING to scumhunt OR defend himself later on, and someone that's easy to miselim is more valuable to scum in later days. So I think an experienced scumplayer, especially one who's played directly with N-M in the past, would be more inclined to jump on someone who pushes at N-M as hard as possible, especially given that we're running out of time and the next decent wagon to get off the ground will have a very good chance of success.

And I feel like an inexperienced scum!Meuh would fight being flipped, at all. She seems resigned to it, and that doesn't feel scummy to me.

So there ya go. Interested in hearing what people think.

[Pearofclubs]

Quick bit, because I was moving between my notes and this post and forgot to finish a thought:
This line:
"Of course, seeing such an easy target, especially given the conversation that happened before."
Should have ended with "Norwee took that opportunity" or something to that degree.

[Meuh]

I have a theory and I would love to hear people's thoughts on it.

First off, let's address N-M. Although I'm risking telling him how to obfuscate his playstyle a little bit more than he does already, I've been over his metagame and he seems way more self-destructive and spammy as scum than he does as town. Not a guarantee, but I'm fairly sure that he's safe at this moment. I'm sure that I've just now told him how to better ruin any chance of reading him, but in the interest of this game, I will take that risk.

And Catboi. Your response is completely fair. I'd never considered that others might find faking reads easier than providing incomplete ones.

But let's get into the meat of the theory. VOTE: Norwegianboyee.
Back in 23, Norwee called for N-M to die. You could suggest it was still RVS but at this point Norwee was in fact giving advice to others, in 27 explaining N-M's playstyle as justification for his comment. Marcistar, of course, swung in with a statement of defense for players like N-M, prompting a discussion about how players going after someone like him are likely scum. A discussion which Meuh reacted to, so one can't say that she didn't see it.

With that in mind, why would scum!Meuh choose to go after N-M? A scumplayer should be more careful, especially with something that's been discussed earlier, and Ink's wagon was still in decent enough shape. As things were, I was actually considering switching back over to him, since Catboi had convinced me

enough

of his towniness and Ink was still somewhat questionable. Town!Meuh, on the other hand, might see that things slowing down and agree with the suggestion that our scum team is comfortable with the gamestate. Lacking any other leads, she might default to N-M because, as I've said before, an elim on an unhelpful nullread is better than a random guess. That's a believable train of thought. Of course, seeing such an easy target, especially given the conversation that happened before.

Next, let's address Norwee's early "scumread" on Meuh. It was a rather quick conclusion to come to so early on, still easily during RVS, where people are free to joke around. Could that have been Meuh ineptly trying to plant the idea of Norwee+NM in people's minds? Yes. It

could

have, but I don't know that I put too much faith in that.

Let's address the concept that wagoning N-M is scummy behavior. I agree if we're talking about newer players, or maybe on later days. On day one, an

experienced

scumplayer would LOVE to keep a shitposting randomlol impossible to read player like N-M alive,

especially

given that people attacking N-M so early look scummy. Why? It's really simple. Because N-M isn't going to do ANYTHING to scumhunt OR defend himself later on, and someone that's easy to miselim is more valuable to scum in later days. So I think an experienced scumplayer, especially one who's played directly with N-M in the past, would be more inclined to jump on someone who pushes at N-M as hard as possible, especially given that we're running out of time and the next decent wagon to get off the ground will have a very good chance of success.

And I feel like an inexperienced scum!Meuh would fight being flipped, at all. She seems resigned to it, and that doesn't feel scummy to me.

So there ya go. Interested in hearing what people think.

Spicy! Yeah, the bit about going for an unhelpful nullread being better than a random guess is accurate to my mentality here. I'll have to reread Norwee's post history. I think scumreading me at this point is reasonable, but going back over the evolution of Norwee's read would be pretty useful.
There's no reason for scum!Meuh to stir the pot here, like you said. Pushing for N_M and interacting with Catboi the way I have are both things that have definitely not helped out with my longevity in this game.

Also what you said about N_M being a burden down the line is exactly what I was thinking. I'm scared of N_M just being this cloudy hard to read, non contributing slot for the rest of the game, which would suck.

With the state of this day, my mentality was just setting up for a solid day 2, so we can get scum out then, and N_M gone has just seemed like the best way to make that happen.

[Meuh]

Are you actually interested in flipping me? How is that supposed to give information on those two?

If you think Meuh is a better vote, that's fine, I've already said I don't oppose it.

Explain what bothered you about that Samawoodo post?

Like, if I had to pick between the wagons you would be the one i'm most interested in. But this was before norwegienboyees vote on meuh.
(I feel like I need to vote within somewhere thats already voted, because not alot of people are budging, and we need info from a flip.)

Well, meuhs buddying you, and samawoodoos buddying her is how I see it.
So I think generally in most cases, scum wouldn't be buddying scum.
so like if ur scum, meuhs not. if ur town, meuhs not.

thats what i was originally thinking but when i think more idk but i still dont like meuh following after you so easily, I don't see a reason for her to.

so then like to explain about samawoodoo, it just seems like he did that because meuh has those kind of thoughts also. (like meuh said ur more townie... and then samawoodoo says ur more townie..) though he could just see meuh as a really townie town leader I guess..?
it just sort of seems like... not really buddying actually but... having too similar thoughts to her..?

The bolded bit seems to have a jump in logic. You say you can't see scum/scum buddying being likely, but never establish why buddying has to be town/scum. I don't see why my buddying-like behaviour makes me and catboi being town/town unlikely. Or Sama's behaviour making me and him being town/town unlikely. Or all 3 of us being town! I'd love elaboration on why you don't think these buddying pairs can be town/town.

[iN3krO]

All right, was trying to get a sense for your familiarity with the game. Do you normally find it difficult to form reads on day 1?

I'm quite hit or miss in D1, but mostly I find it quite difficult.

Also, I've read everything and I like Norwee lynch waaaaaay better than NM

Unvote

VOTE: NorwegianBoy

[Pearofclubs]

Spicy! Yeah, the bit about going for an unhelpful nullread being better than a random guess is accurate to my mentality here. I'll have to reread Norwee's post history. I think scumreading me at this point is reasonable, but going back over the evolution of Norwee's read would be pretty useful.
There's no reason for scum!Meuh to stir the pot here, like you said. Pushing for N_M and interacting with Catboi the way I have are both things that have definitely not helped out with my longevity in this game.

Also what you said about N_M being a burden down the line is exactly what I was thinking. I'm scared of N_M just being this cloudy hard to read, non contributing slot for the rest of the game, which would suck.

With the state of this day, my mentality was just setting up for a solid day 2, so we can get scum out then, and N_M gone has just seemed like the best way to make that happen.

That's the thing, though- his read on you didn't really evolve.
He mentioned scummy vibes from the joke about him and N-M being the team, and put you down as a scumlean after that, but since then hasn't really mentioned anything that contributes to this, aside from the whole "voting NM is scum" thing that he suggested in his first post. In fact, he actually removed you from his list of suspects in 127. So this coming back up again feels a bit sudden.
Feel free to reread him, though!

[Meuh]

Spicy! Yeah, the bit about going for an unhelpful nullread being better than a random guess is accurate to my mentality here. I'll have to reread Norwee's post history. I think scumreading me at this point is reasonable, but going back over the evolution of Norwee's read would be pretty useful.
There's no reason for scum!Meuh to stir the pot here, like you said. Pushing for N_M and interacting with Catboi the way I have are both things that have definitely not helped out with my longevity in this game.

Also what you said about N_M being a burden down the line is exactly what I was thinking. I'm scared of N_M just being this cloudy hard to read, non contributing slot for the rest of the game, which would suck.

With the state of this day, my mentality was just setting up for a solid day 2, so we can get scum out then, and N_M gone has just seemed like the best way to make that happen.

That's the thing, though- his read on you didn't really evolve.
He mentioned scummy vibes from the joke about him and N-M being the team, and put you down as a scumlean after that, but since then hasn't really mentioned anything that contributes to this, aside from the whole "voting NM is scum" thing that he suggested in his first post. In fact, he actually removed you from his list of suspects in 127. So this coming back up again feels a bit sudden.
Feel free to reread him, though!

A Norwee wagon sounds exciting

Will be giving it a reread, thanks for the insight!

[marcistar]

The bolded bit seems to have a jump in logic. You say you can't see scum/scum buddying being likely, but never establish why buddying has to be town/scum. I don't see why my buddying-like behaviour makes me and catboi being town/town unlikely. Or Sama's behaviour making me and him being town/town unlikely. Or all 3 of us being town! I'd love elaboration on why you don't think these buddying pairs can be town/town.

I'm editing a video rn so pray I don't lag too much while typing this.

I probably should've explained more in the OG post, but like
I feel like the way you interacted lately doesn't seem townie, though there might be many factors in that like my hella bad memory, which is why I didn't push it too hard.

thats what i was originally thinking but when i think more idk

in my post, shows how im a bit uncertain about it.
To me, catboi doesn't feel like the type of person you would usually buddy which is why ur buddying rn seems scummy imo
Like you usually buddy people who are strong town leaders (who lead for like the whole phase..?) but catboi doesn't seem much like that. Like I can bring up examples of when you've done this out of site, but when i think about meuh x ?????, all I remember is leaders, not floaters. (does that wording make sense>>???")
I think partly I by accident convinced myself that you have to be scum

but like thats the reasons for how you might be scum, but if ur town heres how catboi fits as scum: he doesn't seem that opposed to your actual buddying...? like i got the vibes he was opposed to other parts of you, which in my eyes means he wants you to follow his lead, but also wants to leave his options to pushing you open.
tho maybe im misunderstanding, but this is what I originally thought.

for the samawoodoo stuff: like, he just seems to be doing alot of what you are..? which is why i kinda thought meuh + samawoodoo might be the scumteam. (like meuh doing stuff, and samawoodoo being inexperienced scum, so he just copies what his partner (meuh) does.)

i hope this helps..?

[marcistar]

wait also heres my VOTE: meuh

i think my heads broken reading meuh is always so hard for me

[Meuh]

Alright just reread. Norwee votes me, then goes onto Ink and seems not to scumread me anymore, then oh, what do you know, I place a vote on N_M!!! And now suddenly, I'm obviously scum I don't think this is necessarily indicative of a Norwee/N_M team, but I think scum would benefit more from a mislim on me (or basically anyone) more than from one on N_M.
Norwee got chill for a while and then seemed to be really convinced it was me all of a sudden. Kinda odd...
and on a reread, his early posts:
1. don't really mean much, especially from an SE
2. aren't really that townlike?
and the second half of the day he's just been less and less convincing of being town.

Not sure a Norwee elim is where I want though, but I'm fine with this pressure on him.

[Meuh]

Alright just reread. Norwee votes me, then goes onto Ink and seems not to scumread me anymore, then oh, what do you know, I place a vote on N_M!!! And now suddenly, I'm obviously scum I don't think this is necessarily indicative of a Norwee/N_M team, but I think scum would benefit more from a mislim on me (or basically anyone) more than from one on N_M.
Norwee got chill for a while and then seemed to be really convinced it was me all of a sudden. Kinda odd...
and on a reread, his early posts:
1. don't really mean much, especially from an SE
2. aren't really that townlike?
and the second half of the day he's just been less and less convincing of being town.

Not sure a Norwee elim is where I want though, but I'm fine with this pressure on him.

[Meuh]

The bolded bit seems to have a jump in logic. You say you can't see scum/scum buddying being likely, but never establish why buddying has to be town/scum. I don't see why my buddying-like behaviour makes me and catboi being town/town unlikely. Or Sama's behaviour making me and him being town/town unlikely. Or all 3 of us being town! I'd love elaboration on why you don't think these buddying pairs can be town/town.

I'm editing a video rn so pray I don't lag too much while typing this.

I probably should've explained more in the OG post, but like
I feel like the way you interacted lately doesn't seem townie, though there might be many factors in that like my hella bad memory, which is why I didn't push it too hard.

thats what i was originally thinking but when i think more idk

in my post, shows how im a bit uncertain about it.
To me, catboi doesn't feel like the type of person you would usually buddy which is why ur buddying rn seems scummy imo
Like you usually buddy people who are strong town leaders (who lead for like the whole phase..?) but catboi doesn't seem much like that. Like I can bring up examples of when you've done this out of site, but when i think about meuh x ?????, all I remember is leaders, not floaters. (does that wording make sense>>???")
I think partly I by accident convinced myself that you have to be scum

but like thats the reasons for how you might be scum, but if ur town heres how catboi fits as scum: he doesn't seem that opposed to your actual buddying...? like i got the vibes he was opposed to other parts of you, which in my eyes means he wants you to follow his lead, but also wants to leave his options to pushing you open.
tho maybe im misunderstanding, but this is what I originally thought.

for the samawoodoo stuff: like, he just seems to be doing alot of what you are..? which is why i kinda thought meuh + samawoodoo might be the scumteam. (like meuh doing stuff, and samawoodoo being inexperienced scum, so he just copies what his partner (meuh) does.)

i hope this helps..?

Catboi was the strongest town leader at that point though. Norwee dropped in actual leading of the game and of activity and had me less and less convinced of his innocence and had pushed on me significantly. I felt better about Pear, but they hadn't said anything in a while so they weren't actively leading either.

This setup against me, Catboi and Sama all at once makes me think Marci/Norwee as our team isn't all too unlikely
Marci knows she can get away with pushing me with meta reasoning, so considering the pressure being put on Norwee, this isn't surprising.

Marci how are you feeling about Norwee?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think my activity dropping isn't telling considering i've been working this week on a very tiring job and can't spend all of my time here.
I'm interested to know what people voting me think it would tell them about the rest of the players in this game if they vote me out and i flip town.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Also please go to the core of the matter, y'all think i'm scum for pushing Meuh here?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Same as has been said about other slots, and me to an particular degree. I rarely push hard to elim slots as scum. I would probably keep voting slots i perceive as weak rather than switch my vote to Meuh at any point if i already had the knowledge that Meuh is town.

[catboi]

Well, meuhs buddying you, and samawoodoos buddying her is how I see it.
So I think generally in most cases, scum wouldn't be buddying scum.
so like if ur scum, meuhs not. if ur town, meuhs not. thats what i was originally thinking but when i think more idk but i still dont like meuh following after you so easily, I don't see a reason for her to.

so then like to explain about samawoodoo, it just seems like he did that because meuh has those kind of thoughts also. (like meuh said ur more townie... and then samawoodoo says ur more townie..) though he could just see meuh as a really townie town leader I guess..?
it just sort of seems like... not really buddying actually but... having too similar thoughts to her..?

Why can't they be town who is townreading me correctly? I'm not naive, I don't think someone is town just for townreading me but I don't think it's inherently suspect either, clearly

someone

has to be right about me. TBH, I have a hard time parsing whether the townreads on me are legitimate or a product of TMI because they haven't been well explained, because it's not like it's not like there's been any reasoning for it, so I don't find it a useful way to sort people. I find it more useful to hang back and observe what other people are doing and what cases they make.

That's an interesting point about Sama repeating opinions. Do you have other examples of this?

Next, let's address Norwee's early "scumread" on Meuh. It was a rather quick conclusion to come to so early on, still easily during RVS, where people are free to joke around. Could that have been Meuh ineptly trying to plant the idea of Norwee+NM in people's minds? Yes. It could have, but I don't know that I put too much faith in that.

Let's address the concept that wagoning N-M is scummy behavior. I agree if we're talking about newer players, or maybe on later days. On day one, an experienced scumplayer would LOVE to keep a shitposting randomlol impossible to read player like N-M alive, especially given that people attacking N-M so early look scummy. Why? It's really simple. Because N-M isn't going to do ANYTHING to scumhunt OR defend himself later on, and someone that's easy to miselim is more valuable to scum in later days. So I think an experienced scumplayer, especially one who's played directly with N-M in the past, would be more inclined to jump on someone who pushes at N-M as hard as possible, especially given that we're running out of time and the next decent wagon to get off the ground will have a very good chance of success.

And I feel like an inexperienced scum!Meuh would fight being flipped, at all. She seems resigned to it, and that doesn't feel scummy to me.

So there ya go. Interested in hearing what people think.

This is all

interesting

but it all feels rather presumptive? Like, you present an example of why this is what scum

could

be doing but I'm not sure it covers the ground to say Norwee is scum

because

he is doing this? That is to say, that his actions make more sense coming from scum than from town. Do you think his vote on Meuh is insincere. I don't agree with his early tonal scumread but I can understand him taking issue with what Meuh was saying in the way he did. It didn't raise a flag for me.

All right, was trying to get a sense for your familiarity with the game. Do you normally find it difficult to form reads on day 1?

I'm quite hit or miss in D1, but mostly I find it quite difficult.

Also, I've read everything and I like Norwee lynch waaaaaay better than NM

Unvote

VOTE: NorwegianBoy

Er...why? You need to explain yourself more or it's going to be hard to get a read on you.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Needless to say, if i'm actually eliminated here, please put more scrutiny on Pear and In3kro.
I mean, Pear had me as top town earlier.

[catboi]

but like thats the reasons for how you might be scum, but if ur town heres how catboi fits as scum: he doesn't seem that opposed to your actual buddying...? like i got the vibes he was opposed to other parts of you, which in my eyes means he wants you to follow his lead, but also wants to leave his options to pushing you open.

Here's the thing: I was still suspicious of Meuh at the time, and said as much. Am I supposed to unvote just because she immediately followed my vote? She seems willing to follow me around like a lost puppy even though I suspect her. I could have voted her right there, but I already stated my preference for someone who is less active. I'm also starting to doubt my scumread of her.

Like, if we vote out nowee or Meuh and they flip town it's going to be incredibly annoying that we removed an active contributor to the game because people were too afraid to vote a lurker.

[Meuh]

Same as has been said about other slots, and me to an particular degree. I rarely push hard to elim slots as scum. I would probably keep voting slots i perceive as weak rather than switch my vote to Meuh at any point if i already had the knowledge that Meuh is town.

You're not pushing very harshly or bringing much new, though. voting me isn't risky the same way other votes have been.
Considering N_M would be a useful townie for scum to keep around and the view of the game was shifting on him and doubt was being cast on me, I don't see why scum Norwee wouldn't take advantage of the situation. It's a benefit most of the time.

[Meuh]

I'd still love a better explanation on why Norwee's behaviour doesn't make sense as a townie yeah, and although this is probably a pitfall to a degree, I don't want us to just start just purging active players. Norwee's done a lot to help discussion progress, and I'd rather not lose that. I'm still of the opinion that an N_M elim is the best route and that won't change without something more convincing.

Also yeah Ink some more insight on your vote would be nice.