Open 809: Charge Me Up! [Over]

[VFP]

I mean you are welcome to town read them if you'd like, but I don't. And quite honestly, I don't think there is much that could be done today to get me to take my vote off of them before the day ends.

This isn't about town reading or scum reading them.
You were talking about wondering why Mini reacted like that. I'm telling you why they reacted like that.

It could be scum frustration as much as town frustration. That's a geniune reason if I've ever seen one though.
482 does not explain the reaction, it explains the agenda from Dk's opinion.

[MiniVirgo]

gamestate manipulation is my favorite part of the game

Well if this isnt scum I dont know what is

- Mini

[MiniVirgo]

K I'm bored guess it's time to actually start reading people

I mean that is what you should be doing in this game. If you are town you should have been doing this already

That is literally not the only thing Town does

No but Town should be doing it regardless

[Green Crayons]

Koba if mini is town who are you voting?

[flow trap]

K I'm bored guess it's time to actually start reading people

I mean that is what you should be doing in this game. If you are town you should have been doing this already

That is literally not the only thing Town does

No but Town should be doing it regardless

Should doesn't mean is capable

[Lukewarm]

I mean you are welcome to town read them if you'd like, but I don't. And quite honestly, I don't think there is much that could be done today to get me to take my vote off of them before the day ends.

This isn't about town reading or scum reading them.
You were talking about wondering why Mini reacted like that. I'm telling you why they reacted like that.

It could be scum frustration as much as town frustration. That's a geniune reason if I've ever seen one though.
482 does not explain the reaction, it explains the agenda from Dk's opinion.

You pointed to a post from mini, where they admitted to having lost twice to DkKoba. And that is supposed to completely explains why they it would be make sense that they were upset to have been scum read by koba?

That level of reaction simply does not make sense to me if they are town being scum read. That level of reaction feels more genuine if it is the reaction to thinking you are getting ready to lose to koba a 3rd time in a row. Which indicates to me that they are scum, upset by being scum read by koba.

I might be right, I might be wrong, but my vote isn't changing off of Mini until they are dead or I am. I am more then happy to keep scum hunting other people in the mean time tho.

[VFP]

You pointed to a post from mini, where they admitted to having lost twice to DkKoba. And that is supposed to completely explains why they it would be make sense that they were upset to have been scum read by koba?

That level of reaction simply does not make sense to me if they are town being scum read. That level of reaction feels more genuine if it is the reaction to thinking you are getting ready to lose to koba a 3rd time in a row. Which indicates to me that they are scum, upset by being scum read by koba.

I might be right, I might be wrong, but my vote isn't changing off of Mini until they are dead or I am. I am more then happy to keep scum hunting other people in the mean time tho.

Of course it makes sense as town or scum.
If this was our 3rd game (me and you), and I just got you out of the 2 last games as both alignments while attempting to push you here, of course you will be frustrated as town with the thought of being the lim. The same as scum.
To clarify I'm not talking about your vote here. That's a different topic. I'm answering / correcting you in what you posted.

One thing I want to point out with the above, you have the scenerio of Mini scum losing to Dk town, but not Mini town losing to Dk scum?
If Mini flips town, is Dk scum for you?

[Lukewarm]

One thing I want to point out with the above, you have the scenerio of Mini scum losing to Dk town, but not Mini town losing to Dk scum?
If Mini flips town, is Dk scum for you?

I mean, maybe I would reconsider Koba in that scenario? But my hypothesis hinged on Mini knowing that they were on opposing teams. Scum Mini would know for sure, Town Mini would not have any extra information, so their read would carry the same weight as the reads of anyone else who flips town after day 1

[DkKoba]

virgo has lost to me as both town and scum lol

[VFP]

I mean, maybe I would reconsider Koba in that scenario? But my hypothesis hinged on Mini knowing that they were on opposing teams. Scum Mini would know for sure, Town Mini would not have any extra information, so their read would carry the same weight as the reads of anyone else who flips town after day 1

Isn't Dk pretty certain that they are on different teams?

[Lukewarm]

I mean, maybe I would reconsider Koba in that scenario? But my hypothesis hinged on Mini knowing that they were on opposing teams. Scum Mini would know for sure, Town Mini would not have any extra information, so their read would carry the same weight as the reads of anyone else who flips town after day 1

Isn't Dk pretty certain that they are on different teams?

This question made me pause.

I just went back through their iso, and I would say no, at least not until after Mini's blow up. Koba does not once mention being suspicious of Mini until post 456 where they say they "think JV might be scum here." Which is the post that trigger the exchange between the two of them. Through out their exchange, koba does not immediately jump to "they are definitely scum," they mainly just defended themselves until post 482 when they said that they caught scum slip. They do seem pretty set on it after that point, but to be honest, that is about the point that I became set on it too.

So no, I would say that at the start of the exchange, koba seems unsure that they are on different teams, and had only just recently floated it as even a possibility. They did however become convinced after seeing mini's reaction to them floating a scum read in their direction.

[DkKoba]

i feel naked when someone describes my exact thought process without me laying it out

[VFP]

This question made me pause.

I just went back through their iso, and I would say no, at least not until after Mini's blow up. Koba does not once mention being suspicious of Mini until post 456 where they say they "think JV might be scum here." Which is the post that trigger the exchange between the two of them. Through out their exchange, koba does not immediately jump to "they are definitely scum," they mainly just defended themselves until post 482 when they said that they caught scum slip. They do seem pretty set on it after that point, but to be honest, that is about the point that I became set on it too.

So no, I would say that at the start of the exchange, koba seems unsure that they are on different teams, and had only just recently floated it as even a possibility. They did however become convinced after seeing mini's reaction to them floating a scum read in their direction.

You fail to add 463.
This post is clearly Dk calling them scum without sign of doubt. In fact a comment like this is actually a confident read as scum
The other part is that I don't think Mini ever calls Dk scum here, so the argument that Mini knows that they aren't on the same team isn't exactly valid as there's no evidence that Mini thinks this.
I'm back on phone as I'm going to bed but I had a skim and it looks to me that Mini thinks they are on the same side as Dk, and Dk is just pushing shit meta to justify a scum read / lim (not my words I have no view on the meta).

Town being frustrated at town with knowing that Dk can and has previously got them eliminated before is plausible here.

Correct me if I'm wrong there of course as it was only a skim but regardless, what gives you the impression that Mini is making this SvT over TvT?

[DkKoba]

thats a bit of a stretch.

[Save The Dragons]

UNVOTE: minivirgo wanna give this game a good think in the morning

What made you want to rethink and what was your outcome?

- Mini

asked and answered.

[Raya36]

Replacing Green Crayons

[Lukewarm]

VFP, you are really jumping through a lot of hoops to try and make this point.

You fail to add 463.
This post is clearly Dk calling them scum without sign of doubt.

No, I did not over look post 463. That post is clearly koba defending their own ability, and it does not say that Mini is scum in this game (it is talking about their previous game). I read this exchange as mini saying "the way you make reads does not work" and koba saying "it worked for me before in the game we just played." I just do not see "Dk calling them scum without sign of doubt" as you put it.

The other part is that I don't think Mini ever calls Dk scum here, so the argument that Mini knows that they aren't on the same team isn't exactly valid as there's no evidence that Mini thinks this.

I never once said that Mini called Dk scum?? And that does not matter for the logic I presented in post 605
My logic was: for their response to make any sense to me, they must know that they are on different teams, and think he is going to lose to koba a 3rd time in a row -> if they know they are on different teams, he must be scum

Scum Mini never has to call DkKoba scum for them to know that they are on opposite teams, because the scum knows the scum team. (Also, not that it mattered to me, but apparntly it affects your read of the situation?? Mini did later call Koba scum in post 601 )

[Lukewarm]

what gives you the impression that Mini is making this SvT over TvT?

I feel like I have been clear on this. Quite simply, I am trying to make Mini's reaction make

ANY

sense to me.

I went and hunted down the koba / virgo game that they played together, and you know how that game played out? Virgo, as mafia, getting voted out day 1 because Koba scum read them.

If it is a TvT interaction, then I cannot make Mini's reaction make any sense to me. If they are town, being scum read by koba, then what is the big deal, right? Town should not be that upset over a scum read on them on Day 1. I mean most games start with a town elimination on Day 1, can you imagine if that is how town reacts to that? Even in light of their prior game history, if koba is now misreading them, then Virgo can become self assured that koba's read on them in the prior game was a fluke.

If it is a SvT interaction, then Virgo's reaction makes more sense to me. Unlike Town, scum should be more upset at being scum read day 1 in general, because that means they are failing at their main goal. And then if you add in the game history, suddenly Virgo is thinking that there is a possibility of them being voted out Day 1, as scum, twice because of a Koba's read on them. Then suddenly, their reaction (while still unacceptable) make a little bit of sense.

So my options on how to read Virgo were as follows:
1) Despite being fairly experienced with Mafia, they are very upset by the idea of being scum read as town on Day 1
2) Their pride was wounded by being correctly scum read by Koba on day 1, two games in a row.

Option 2 is the only option that makes Virgo's eruption come anywhere close to making sense to me (and even then is unacceptable)

[Lukewarm]

To be quite honest, I did not really want to do a deep dive into analyzing their reaction. My plan was to leave my vote on them and hope they got voted out Day 1, and then pretend that that explosion never happened.

I am unclear why you kept bringing it back to the focus of the conversation VFP?

[Lukewarm]

That is the last I have to say on MiniVirgo. My vote is gonna stay there until either they are dead, or I am dead (

or I replace out of this game tbh

).

I would much rather spend the rest of Day 1, discussion the other players of the game.

[DkKoba]

im gonna go back to bending and reread that game because i think scum me tried to pocket them that game while they scumread me early? let me see.

[Lukewarm]

im gonna go back to bending and reread that game because i think scum me tried to pocket them that game while they scumread me early? let me see.

I saw the one where you were town and they were scum. Might not be the most recent of the two

[DkKoba]

oh hahaha i actually early pushed him there as scum nvm, i remember the pocket because that was my goal to push them down bc i could feel them being a thorn for my team and went for discred but also wanted to get them MLed by letting them drive MLs too xD

[DkKoba]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84723

this one is where I was scum and they were town

[MiniVirgo]

what gives you the impression that Mini is making this SvT over TvT?

I feel like I have been clear on this. Quite simply, I am trying to make Mini's reaction make

ANY

sense to me.

I went and hunted down the koba / virgo game that they played together, and you know how that game played out? Virgo, as mafia, getting voted out day 1 because Koba scum read them.

If it is a TvT interaction, then I cannot make Mini's reaction make any sense to me. If they are town, being scum read by koba, then what is the big deal, right? Town should not be that upset over a scum read on them on Day 1. I mean most games start with a town elimination on Day 1, can you imagine if that is how town reacts to that? Even in light of their prior game history, if koba is now misreading them, then Virgo can become self assured that koba's read on them in the prior game was a fluke.

If it is a SvT interaction, then Virgo's reaction makes more sense to me. Unlike Town, scum should be more upset at being scum read day 1 in general, because that means they are failing at their main goal. And then if you add in the game history, suddenly Virgo is thinking that there is a possibility of them being voted out Day 1, as scum, twice because of a Koba's read on them. Then suddenly, their reaction (while still unacceptable) make a little bit of sense.

So my options on how to read Virgo were as follows:
1) Despite being fairly experienced with Mafia, they are very upset by the idea of being scum read as town on Day 1
2) Their pride was wounded by being correctly scum read by Koba on day 1, two games in a row.

Option 2 is the only option that makes Virgo's eruption come anywhere close to making sense to me (and even then is unacceptable)

Let me say this again. In that game where I was scum, my elimination was the plan BECAUSE of the setup. It's a setup where Town can choose 5 people D1, if they're all Town. Town wins, otherwise game goes on.

Both my buddy and myself got into that group of 5, and my plan was to look scummy enough AFTER that to get eliminated so my buddy has a >rand chance of winning the game. Just from hindsight I most definitely could have played that better if I wanted to survive that, but I didn't, so I didn't.

---

Also more clarification about those points.
1) I am not upset about the idea I am being scum-read, it happens in most games as it's natural. I couldn't care less, the fact that I am being scum-read for something which is clearly wrong yet the person is sticking hard to it is what gives me the shits.
2) Here you are assuming I am scum here again, making this whole point get thrown out of the window because that's relative to information you shouldn't have. Make this post-flip and it'll be wrong.

- JV