newbie 2060: creatures, game ofer

[fferyllt]

I'm a little confused

you say "'I'm reading along and I think everyone is missing something that I wish I could say' then I replace in."

"Only around the point where Bell replaces out, which made me go back a bit further."

So you weren't reading the game prior to Bell's replace-out?

[unwnd]

Haha no I wasn't, I saw Bell replaced out and felt convinced of trying to clear up misunderstanding

[unwnd]

Agh everytime I go 'wait hold on Ivyeo/Lukewarm can be scum together' I just remember what you told me about hammering

[fferyllt]

I'm not sure what you mean by snap reaction.

I think Bell much like anyone else has an ego. Nobody likes to be misread as town, especially in a situation where you know someone. In his mind I think he was convinced you must be scum because you were unable to see that he was town. That behavior isn't even revolutionary, and something I've seen Bell do a ton of times as town.

If that's what happened then he glossed over my posts saying how I could see town-him form that read of me initially, ignored that I unvoted him shortly after our first direct back and forth, etc.

I'm trying not to get over-focused on just-Bell, and look at Saudade and you, too.

If you've got the idea that I'm completely locked in on any read here, you're wrong. I think the 48 hours or so of being feverish, even though I didn't completely stop posting, did give me enough of a break that I hopefully have fresh eyes, here.

[fferyllt]

Agh everytime I go 'wait hold on Ivyeo/Lukewarm can be scum together' I just remember what you told me about hammering

I know.

If somehow they were never quite online at the same time through that, I will laugh a hollow laugh in the postgame.

[Lukewarm]

Ugh. I hate this feeling. It feels like I am stuck in a room being gaslit. I am literally trapped in a conversation that is me+2 scum (with the very occasional chime in from Egix or Ivy). If I am going to stay involved in the conversation, I am going to need some substantial input from Egix so I'd don't feel like I am going this alone.

Spoiler:

As for the Ahri vote, I am pretty sure I made my stance really clear at the time. I did not have any strong scum reads, and the way they were playing was annoying. Long periods of posting nothing, then popping in with posts meming about being scum. They were either scum using that as a defense, or they were someone who was not going to help us win, and were therefore a better Day 1 miselim then the other possibilities. As the day went on, my scum read on Wheme got stronger, so I moved my vote.

[fferyllt]

Reading through day 1, this is some of the stuff that stood out to me.

VOTE: Whemestar
Reasoning is a bit weird, I think putting someone at E-1 is more justifiable than E-2 Tbh. Definitely not a strong push or anything yet

Post 25 is an E-1 vote. I have the impression that Ivy has become a quieter, less wave-making player since the early game, and has a tendency to ask questions rather than state opinions. We'll see if this impression holds out.

VOTE: Whemestar
I think putting someone at E-1 is more justifiable than E-2

One precedes the other, though, and doing an E-1 means you agree with E-2. I guess E-2 is a more silent way of pushing an elimination than E-1, but without more context I don't think one is more justifiable than the other.

Fair enough, I guess I didn't think of it like that UNVOTE:
My thought process was more along the lines of it pushing but not really making it look like your contributing as much.

I don't think anyone really pushed her on why she unvoted here, though E-1 at the top of page 2 is risking an accidental hammer and it's good imo that she did.

VOTE: whemestar

Only person I have gotten scum vibes from. His "voting for the same thing is something we don't want" while simultaneously joining a wagon felt off to me lol.

Btw, today is my husbands birthday, so I probably won't check this forum again until in the morning. Promise to be more after that tho

Noting that Lukewarm ignored the #31 backpedal.

VOTE: Ivyeo

This is a not-partners-with-Ivy post from Saudade if the slot is scum. The way this hit the thread gives me slight townvibes.*

No no no........................!
it's the need to state the obvious that pinged me

I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly?

He's not neccesarly saying Dark isn't scummy, he's saying you are *more* scummy than dark, we want to execute our most likely scum do we not?

These two posts give the vibe to me of someone who is playing up their uncertainty. Like asking if her mafia-theory is sound, kinda, and ending it on a question makes it easier to take back if needed. Could just be a playstyle thing, but I want to note it.

Spoiler: oh you sweet summer child

Before I go sleep, my guess is WhemeStar/Clasko mafteam.

My scumreads are Whemestar, Ivyeo and Clasko.

Ivyeo does not seem to be contributing much to the conversation, and what they are sending is very wishy-washy. Their messages so far have been a vote, a quick unvote, and then this one:

Whilst I do see the scummyness in Wheme's posts, I'm not sure we want to cut Day 1 discussion to right here.

They just seem like they are being overly cautious, which I feel is more likely with a scum then a town.

Being honest, this mostly comes from being worried because my reads were *basically* 100% wrong last time I played, and I don't want to cause us to lose again. I have some reads but I'm not sure if they hold any water? Like I had bad vibes from Wheme but then their defense made me less confident in that, and now them trying to keep pushing defensively isn't feeling very towny to me, but again that's just kidna vibes and also nothing special for how town has been feeling. I had a town read on Clasko for example, because the whole W/W thing felt good, but also them saying they town lean *both* of them instead of "picking a side" makes me like them less. I still think I need more time to really have anything scum reads at this point, as I feel less sure on Wheme, but part of that may be a thing from the other games I play, as they're generally more strict on behaviorial stuff.

No no no........................!
it's the need to state the obvious that pinged me

I'm sleepy and will elaborate further tomorrow, but take into account that she's a newbie. Her posts don't yet strike me as needing-to-state-the-obvious (filler?) in a scummy way.

No but this tell was usually what newbies fell for while the veteran gods (me) knew to avoid it

If Ivyeo is not an experienced player, I can see stating things in a more-than-necessary clear way as expected. Ivyeo, what's your experience with mafia?

On a Fourm this is my second game, as said earlier first I got Mis-elim'd in F4, and But I'm pretty active in *other* social deduction games such as BoTC, though that feels more information based and less read based. I've also did Video mafia for a few weeks, but stopped as I didn't really vibe with it.

This post, starting out with "Being honest," why bring up honesty, and why be anything but honest as town? "I have some reads but I'm not sure if they hold any water?" finishing with a question.

This post got Luke some blowback

I don’t like how you are set on me being the flip on page 5

Yes its page 5 (well 6 now), but we are also on the 6th irl day for our in game Day 1. Maybe I am just not accustomed to the pacing of games on this site, but it feels like we are approaching the point where we just have to pick someone. Like there is only so much info we can really gain in day 1 until we force someone to claim, no?

I am getting pretty antsy for us to l-1 someone just so we can gain new info. Force someone to claim their role, then decide if we want to actually hammer the person based on what they claim. I mean if we wait to much longer, then if we L-1 someone, and decide we shouldn't hammer them, we won't even have long to form a new wagon.

I am not necessarily saying that I think it needs to be you, I would be happy for us to L-1 anyone on my scumread list tbh, so for now, I am gonna be on the biggest wagon between Whemestar, Ivyeo and Clasko.

VOTE: Ivyeo because I have sat on the Whemestar wagon for a while, and the Ivyeo wagon is the same size, so might as well mix it up lol

He's not saying that he wants to run people up one at a time and get claims. The reasoning to move votes is pretty lame, though. He said that Ivy is wishywashy, which I think is a fair way to characterize her play at this point in the game.

I'm kinda meh about being willing to vote any of three people in a 9 p game on page 6(?). I know the game moved really, really slowly, but I feel like that should have made people want more data, not to settle in on a wagon.

I don't understand why we need role claims so early in the game, it's only going to hurt town? Unless there are special mechanics in this setup I'm not aware of.

No, I do not want multiple people to claim their roles, but I do think that it is important that we vote someone before the day is over, but there are quite a few steps to get us from here to there.

First we L-1 the person we most suspect to be scum, at which point that person (

and only that person

), should claim their role. Then we either hammer that person, or if their claim causes us to rethink the vote, we have to target someone else.

To me (and again, it might just be a different pacing on this site then what I am used to) it seems like we have hit a point where we are just treading water, and at some point we need to pick a direction to go. I don't want us to tread water so long that we don't have time to go through all of the steps, especially if we decide to rethink the vote.

This post gave me a sense that Luke is a methodical player. I wonder if I've been calling the method logic erroneously. The three scumreads weren't very deeply thought out, though it is 6 pages in. It's hard to believe the game had been going on for days. 6 pages is slow-posting for the first 24 hours in a lot of games, much less nearly a week.

I Like Ivy's posts at the bottom of page 6. That was some nice pushback on Luke.

UNVOTE:
Actually on second thought, I want to hear more form Luke here first before placing my vote

You know, this somehow makes me think you are less likely to be scum. Which is weird because, I scum read you at first for being wishy-washy, but now I am going to town read you for the same thing lol. When you voted Whemestar, I was surprised to see someone who previously seemed wishy washy, to suddenly commit and agree with me.

But then you unvoted, so your wishy-washy-ness is at least consistent

I think I'm actually removing you from my list of scum reads, and I'm down to Whemestar and Clasko. Those two would actually work as a pair, with Clasko's logic that confused me actually being an attempt to pull suspicion off of Whemestar.

Clasko and Whemestar were incorrect reads. Not sure why I want to note that, just a feeling that Luke has had some wrong positions in the game but he hasn't seemed to be shaken by that. I dunno, the game almost always faces forward and regrets and apologies are for postgame.

I don’t like how you are set on me being the flip on page 5

Yes its page 5 (well 6 now), but we are also on the 6th irl day for our in game Day 1. Maybe I am just not accustomed to the pacing of games on this site, but it feels like we are approaching the point where we just have to pick someone. Like there is only so much info we can really gain in day 1 until we force someone to claim, no?

I am getting pretty antsy for us to l-1 someone just so we can gain new info. Force someone to claim their role, then decide if we want to actually hammer the person based on what they claim. I mean if we wait to much longer, then if we L-1 someone, and decide we shouldn't hammer them, we won't even have long to form a new wagon.

I am not necessarily saying that I think it needs to be you, I would be happy for us to L-1 anyone on my scumread list tbh, so for now, I am gonna be on the biggest wagon between Whemestar, Ivyeo and Clasko.

VOTE: Ivyeo because I have sat on the Whemestar wagon for a while, and the Ivyeo wagon is the same size, so might as well mix it up lol

This is an excellent post, like, this guy is town

^^ This post could be a partnery thing, though I got the impression that Saudade tends to ignore teammates as scum. It's hard to ignore people in a 9p game, though.

In a dead/dying gamestate the person who livens it up by being proactive is 99% of the time town

I liked this post. Some of Saudade's were part of the reason I didn't want to scumread Bell initially. I really expected us to sort each other quickly and move on from there if he was town.

Wheme and Luke are townleans for me lets go we might get a win here yet

Not supporting the Wheme wagon here would have been anti-scum-wincon I think, though there was still time to ove things around.

I'm forming opinions on others that I don't want to give words to just yet. Stay tuned.

- Ivyeo: - /M - Too back and forth on WhemeStar now, especially after the interaction with Lukewarm.

Whilst I am somewhat back and forth, my logic for it is consistent. My most recent vote on Wheme I took back because I didn't really have a strong reason to have a vote on him. It's more a gut feeling than anything so I decided I didn't want to be voting based on that. Tomorrow I plan to go back through some ISOs to try to form a more solid opinion, as I currently don't have a definite idea of who I'd want to go for.

This post is kind of a promise to do more <tomorrow> in the way of figuring out where she wants her vote. She was also hesitant to figure out what she wanted to do with her vote at the end of day 2, also.

And she's playing her cards super close to her vest here, and I think it might be because she's not gotten any pressure to speak of today. She's not out of the frame. Ivy needs to step it up and be readable before tomorrow if the game doesn't crash today.

Quoting this because

WhemeStar

33 - Minor town vibes, especially considering that the thread atmosphere so far this game has mainly felt like one where scum would find it easy to point out something scummy.

54 - I don't really feel like Wheme has been overly defensive, and I think that the attitude shown here is justified by 71.

106, 118 - I find it a bit odd that Wheme goes from being "confused" by endlessdark's frustration comment to thinking it "sounded made up and fake". By which I mean, if you always thought it was fake then why would it confuse you?

125 -> 128 - I think that this argument is fine.

Also, a thought that's been brewing in the back of my mind is that, so far, the gamestate has mainly felt like it's a case of "Wheme is going to be yeeted D1, but we can't drop the hammer yet because we still need to allow plenty of time for discussion."

The issue is that there still hasn't been a huge wealth of discussion, which implies that scum are content with this gamestate. Yes, Wheme has been defending himself, but why has seemingly no one else made a solid effort to divert attention elsewhere?

I want to think on the bolded.

Wheme and Luke are townleans for me lets go we might get a win here yet

I can't find rationale for townreading Wheme in any of your posts, did I miss it?

This was a good callout of Saudade's Wheme read.

@Mod I am a little unsure about the dead line after reading your last update. It said you were adding 24 hours, but the countdown is still pointing to the day ending in 3 hours. I don't want to mess up just because I don't understand the timer

If they day ends in 3 hours, I would like to hammer Whemestar now, because I'm off to bed and will not be back on before the dead line
VOTE: timer dependent, whemestar


If we still have 27 hours, then :

WhemeStar I am prepared to hammer when I log on tomorrow, so go ahead and claim your role.

It's interesting that this contingent vote was allowed without comment from the mod. It's not something generally done at MS.

hey newer players i'll probably post a full death message upon 5 hours but if you're planning on hammering me b4 then just type smth like

INTENT TO HAMMER

I unvoted from you, so you are not longer at e-1

UNVOTE:

WhemeStar I am prepared to hammer when I log on tomorrow, so go ahead and claim your role.

I’m confused

Are you still planning on hammering me?

When I logged on today, both whemestar and ahri were at e-1, but no one else has stated an intent to hammer. This leads me to believe that one of the two of you is most likely actually scum (and that person's partner is already targeting the other person).

I am not as confident as you can possibly be on day 1, that either you or Ahri are scum (and that their partner is already on the other person's wagon).

And if I am comparing the two of you, I am more suspicious of you. So I INTEND TO HAMMER you today.

Another signpost that things are not always what they seem. Not living in the thread during these last hours, the two wagons don't feel as stagnant as all that.

--------------------------------------

coming around to a Saudade/Bell/unwnd townread is going to be a huge uphill struggle if it happens. Rereading the early game is reminding me why I thought Saudade-scum might N1K Ahri (apparently know each other/Epic Mafia playstyles). His posts feel more town than not, though.

[fferyllt]

Ugh. I hate this feeling. It feels like I am stuck in a room being gaslit. I am literally trapped in a conversation that is me+2 scum (with the very occasional chime in from Egix or Ivy). If I am going to stay involved in the conversation, I am going to need some substantial input from Egix so I'd don't feel like I am going this alone.

Spoiler:

As for the Ahri vote, I am pretty sure I made my stance really clear at the time. I did not have any strong scum reads, and the way they were playing was annoying. Long periods of posting nothing, then popping in with posts meming about being scum. They were either scum using that as a defense, or they were someone who was not going to help us win, and were therefore a better Day 1 miselim then the other possibilities. As the day went on, my scum read on Wheme got stronger, so I moved my vote.

This pisses me off. You're not being gaslit by me.

I'm fucking trying to figure this game out and I'm trying to give all three of you as fair a shake as possible in the process.

[fferyllt]

I mean, in the final analysis this game's outcome isn't really in my hands, but I'm not giving up and I'm trying to SOLVE it even if it won't matter in the end.

I want town to win. If that's not possible then I want to have had the right solve even if I couldn't make it happen.

[Ivyeo]

[quote="In post 815, fferyllt"

Can you explain why going from strongly pushing Wheme to doubting their read struck you as scummy?[/quote]
It wasn't neccesarly that they doubt it, it's that they doubted it and then procceded to not speak about it. Felt like they weren't trying to make an effort to determine if it was right or not.

[fferyllt]

[quote="In post 815, fferyllt"

Can you explain why going from strongly pushing Wheme to doubting their read struck you as scummy?

It wasn't neccesarly that they doubt it, it's that they doubted it and then procceded to not speak about it. Felt like they weren't trying to make an effort to determine if it was right or not.[/quote]

Ok.

I feel like your play has kinda had some of the same features, in terms of not being up front about the status of your reads. You've occasionally made a post about how you're going to do something "tomorrow", but it doesn't look like you really got back to those issues unless I'm glossing over something.

[fferyllt]

eh. was going to fix the broken quote and forgot about it.

[Ivyeo]

Whilst I agree that's an issue (though it's being caused by real life being a bitch right now), I have been doing some rereading I just haven't really shared anything unless I've been seeing reads I'm confident in, and this game hasn't had much content that I've really been able to "dig into" and pull stuff out of that's led me anywhere but still unsure in the early days. I think this has somewhat been affirmed by the fact that both of my votes have been wrong so far btw.
In response to ""I have some reads but I'm not sure if they hold any water?" finishing with a question. " - It's more of a trailing tone than a question.

[fferyllt]

I get real life getting in the way of mafia.

Is there more to dig into now? Is there something missing from the content?

[fferyllt]

Agh everytime I go 'wait hold on Ivyeo/Lukewarm can be scum together' I just remember what you told me about hammering

You want to convince me I'm wrong about Bell and hence you.

Is Luke/Ivy your solve?

[Lukewarm]

Ugh. I hate this feeling. It feels like I am stuck in a room being gaslit. I am literally trapped in a conversation that is me+2 scum (with the very occasional chime in from Egix or Ivy). If I am going to stay involved in the conversation, I am going to need some substantial input from Egix so I'd don't feel like I am going this alone.

Spoiler:

As for the Ahri vote, I am pretty sure I made my stance really clear at the time. I did not have any strong scum reads, and the way they were playing was annoying. Long periods of posting nothing, then popping in with posts meming about being scum. They were either scum using that as a defense, or they were someone who was not going to help us win, and were therefore a better Day 1 miselim then the other possibilities. As the day went on, my scum read on Wheme got stronger, so I moved my vote.

This pisses me off. You're not being gaslit by me.

I'm fucking trying to figure this game out and I'm trying to give all three of you as fair a shake as possible in the process.

Honestly, it has nothing to do with how you are playing the game, and everything to do with the fact that the two people I think are actually town are the two least active players in the thread.

So far in Day 3

• I have 43 posts
  
• Ivy has 13 posts
  
• Egix has
  6 posts
  
  
  
• ffery has 71 posts
  
• Unwnd has 34 posts

So from my PoV town has 62 posts, 70% of them coming from me, and scum has 105 posts.
So I left feeling like I am single handedly having to address and counter argument every single point being made by scum, and so I feel like I am fighting an uphill battle all alone.

Nothing to do with you, your playing the game the way you should be playing the game given the game state. But from my PoV the scum team is in full control of the direction of the thread, which is bad, and I am not going to get any help to fix that issue. And I simply am not equipped to single handedly try and keep the thread on a town-win focused thread.

So I think I need to just admit defeat until my confirmed town SE comes back and can help me. I've made my view clear, It is almost certainly ffery+unwnd, with the smallest of small possible chance that it is ffery+Ivy, and so I strongly think we need to vote ffery today. I'll rejoin the chat after we hear from Egix.

[unwnd]

Whilst I agree that's an issue (though it's being caused by real life being a bitch right now), I have been doing some rereading I just haven't really shared anything unless I've been seeing reads I'm confident in, and this game hasn't had much content that I've really been able to "dig into" and pull stuff out of that's led me anywhere but still unsure in the early days. I think this has somewhat been affirmed by the fact that both of my votes have been wrong so far btw.
In response to ""I have some reads but I'm not sure if they hold any water?" finishing with a question. " - It's more of a trailing tone than a question.

GTH I want your stance on me much like I asked ffery for the same thing

[unwnd]

Agh everytime I go 'wait hold on Ivyeo/Lukewarm can be scum together' I just remember what you told me about hammering

You want to convince me I'm wrong about Bell and hence you.

Is Luke/Ivy your solve?

That is my optimistic solve, but I am prepared to think it's not realistic. I wish I had more agency here regardless

[fferyllt]

Ugh. I hate this feeling. It feels like I am stuck in a room being gaslit. I am literally trapped in a conversation that is me+2 scum (with the very occasional chime in from Egix or Ivy). If I am going to stay involved in the conversation, I am going to need some substantial input from Egix so I'd don't feel like I am going this alone.

Spoiler:

As for the Ahri vote, I am pretty sure I made my stance really clear at the time. I did not have any strong scum reads, and the way they were playing was annoying. Long periods of posting nothing, then popping in with posts meming about being scum. They were either scum using that as a defense, or they were someone who was not going to help us win, and were therefore a better Day 1 miselim then the other possibilities. As the day went on, my scum read on Wheme got stronger, so I moved my vote.

This pisses me off. You're not being gaslit by me.

I'm fucking trying to figure this game out and I'm trying to give all three of you as fair a shake as possible in the process.

Honestly, it has nothing to do with how you are playing the game, and everything to do with the fact that the two people I think are actually town are the two least active players in the thread.

So far in Day 3

• I have 43 posts
  
• Ivy has 13 posts
  
• Egix has
  6 posts
  
  
  
• ffery has 71 posts
  
• Unwnd has 34 posts

So from my PoV town has 62 posts, 70% of them coming from me, and scum has 105 posts.
So I left feeling like I am single handedly having to address and counter argument every single point being made by scum, and so I feel like I am fighting an uphill battle all alone.

Nothing to do with you, your playing the game the way you should be playing the game given the game state. But from my PoV the scum team is in full control of the direction of the thread, which is bad, and I am not going to get any help to fix that issue. And I simply am not equipped to single handedly try and keep the thread on a town-win focused thread.

So I think I need to just admit defeat until my confirmed town SE comes back and can help me. I've made my view clear, It is almost certainly ffery+unwnd, with the smallest of small possible chance that it is ffery+Ivy, and so I strongly think we need to vote ffery today. I'll rejoin the chat after we hear from Egix.

I love this post.

I don't want to love it.

But I do.

All I can tell you is that I would never have played day 2 this way. There is no scenario -- no player I could be scum with -- where I would choose to play day 2 the way I did. I wouldn't put in the amount of data I've put in this thread as scum, especially scum in a precarious position. Quite the opposite.

[unwnd]

I took a deep sigh and I think I might just wait for Egix too, because I actually had an adversely negative reaction to that post

[fferyllt]

I took a deep sigh and I think I might just wait for Egix too, because I actually had an adversely negative reaction to that post

Luke's post?

The emotion in that post is so close to how I feel about this game.

I'm going to keep working through the data from your slot. Bell next, and then your posts.

[fferyllt]

Ivy, can you describe what finding a partner for someone entails? What do you look for?

atm, I'm trying to see if I can find a good partner for Demainer. I still haven't been liking their posts, but I've felt pretty equal on most everyone else, which is of course a problem.

Obviously Demainer didn't have a partner. I'm trying to understand what you were looking for at the time you made this post.

[fferyllt]

Therefore, I think that our best option moving forward would be to target either Ivy or fferylly today (sorry, I know you just got here)

I don't totally hate the possibility of being mis-elimed as long as I get plenty of time (e.g., a good sized chunk of this 48 hour extension) to analyze the available (sparse-ish) data and interact with the player list. But, I'll probably get pretty snarky if it does happen.

While either choice would work logically, I am much more leaning towards voting out Ivy today. I mean you have generated more discussions in the like 3 hours you have been in the game, then Ivy has generated in the whole of Day 2. Regardless of your alignment, keeping you in the game seems more likely to keep the thread from dying lol

I am quite certain on Ahri being an anti-spew kill, not a pr hunt. But, in either case, whether it's for antispew or pr, neither option is obvious to a newbie. There are more obvious targets in the thread, like Luke, who was both active and widely tr, or an se. Killing a newbie who has barely posted anything at all isn't something I'd expect from a 2x newbie team.

With Egix cleared by Clasko, that leaves saudade. while i see endless being on the team as well as it seems like he has some experience with this as well, I'm leaning most towards saudade/ivyeo.

Even though I am no longer advocating we vote you out, I still gotta say, there is something about your posts that just feel...

off

... to me lol

I go back and forth about the amount of mafia-knowledge Luke shows in his posting. He has the fundamentals down, and some of the things that seem off could just be coming from differences in how mafia is played where he's played before.

On the one hand, I have this Luke the Scum Mastermind vision in my head.

On the other hand, sometimes he makes posts that seem way more like the kinds of emotions that players don't filter as town, but tend to steam out of their posts as scum, just as part of the process of not posting something that reveals scum mindset or that could be useful to town. Here he's advocating Ivy's elim over mine because I came into the game and posted a lot. Generating data is good for town, and I feel like while this reason for not eliming me was kinda minimalist and maybe naive, "more posts is good for town" isn't a thought that scum needs to give town to chew on in a game that was gasping due to lack of data.

[fferyllt]

Ffery I'm still waiting on your assessment on me. Bell is Bell but we're not the same people. Why haven't you considered he was potentially just having an off game?

I've gone back through his posts, and I feel like the only way he could have believed some of the stuff he wrote was if he wasn't reading all my posts. I did throw a bunch of posts into the thread between our first and the next one, and maybe he skipped over some. His scumread had calcified by then.

Meanwhile I was all over the map.

Reading through that stuff, I came across a lot of posts I made about Demainer and Ivy before I did that toss and turn night. I was probably thinking more clearly then.

Agh everytime I go 'wait hold on Ivyeo/Lukewarm can be scum together' I just remember what you told me about hammering

You want to convince me I'm wrong about Bell and hence you.

Is Luke/Ivy your solve?

That is my optimistic solve, but I am prepared to think it's not realistic. I wish I had more agency here regardless

Give yourself agency if that's what's holding you back. The way you're playing right now scares me. You want me to reevaluate Bell, but I need YOU to process the game now. Bell's gone and none of the questions I want to ask him can be asked now.

[fferyllt]

between our first

encounter

and the next one,