Mini Normal 2205: RotITGBSMoD [game over!]

[Asteria]

who is the scumteam gth asteria

Are you asking me or is gth supposed to be with?

gun to head

Osuka, T3, Anya

I'm wavering again on andres. I mean why convince everyone to not elim the PR if scum when there was enough traction there to push it through.

I don't think salsa/clidd are with Osuka and I'm starting to feel really convinced on scum!Osuka here.

I think if Osuka is scum the frustration on that slot makes sense. I'd be frustrated too if my partner was barely here. It makes sense too with how Osuka would express frustration on T3s posting but also not want T3 to be the elim.

Osuka pokes at Anya a bit in his first page of his iso but hardly mentions the slot the rest of the game. Anya early scumreads Osuka and it doesn't really go anywhere. I don't have a reason to scumread Anya alone. This is just based on Osuka being scum. Anya and T3 don't make as much sense though unless anya was convinced their push wouldn't result in anything and would be a good opportunity for distancing.

I could see T3's mentions of both players coming from scumpartners.

Thoughts on Lemons?

I still think Lemons is town. They have a really towny thought process and progression on me even though they're wrong on me. Their play this whole game has screamed obvtown to me.

They were voting you while you were E-1, and they're town to you?

Yes, town can be wrong. And they're at least addressing all possibilities and actually considering the different options

[Asteria]

Weird post, Asteria.

Scum would have more reasons not to push you after a claim than the other way around.

I'm saying if I'm right on osuka being scum then this is what happened

[DkKoba]

i think osuka's vote on you was towny actually and they made sure not to put you at e-1 so you could talk and defend yourseld and prevent a scum quickhammer so town!you should logcially see that as town

[Asteria]

Scum do that too... It would be scummy to not...

[DkKoba]

reaching.

[Asteria]

No.. I don't think I've ever not done that as scum

Scum don't want to look scummy and if Osuka didn't do that it would reflect so badly when I flip nea

[Andante]

I mean, I can see osuka scum as well, but that doesn't make lemons town...

[clidd]

Weird post, Asteria.

Scum would have more reasons not to push you after a claim than the other way around.

I'm saying if I'm right on osuka being scum then this is what happened

But that's forcing an unsatisfactory explanation to fit a particular theory of yours and not an impartial thought about Asuka.

[clidd]

Correction: Osuka*

[DkKoba]

osuka is FL?

[clidd]

Which means that you are starting from the conclusion that Osuka is scum and how his actions would be explained from that instead of evaluating if it really makes sense for scum!Osuka to push a PR.

pedit: Probably not, idk.

[Andante]

Which means that you are starting from the conclusion that Osuka is scum and how his actions would be explained from that instead of evaluating if it really makes sense for scum!Osuka to push a PR.

pedit: Probably not, idk.

well what sense did it make for Koba as a vig to push the neo claim?

there's 4 guns in play, if koba and Asteria are real, scum either has 2 docs, or a doc and a traitor

[InsidiousLemons]

experienced players do not complain about other people using too much logic and too little emotion. the list goes on.

I’ve been thinking about this. I actually think a lack of emotion, or too much reliance on logic, is more Scum indicative than not. Town screw up all the time. I give convoluted reasoning on the regular. All you have to do is read any one of my completed games to see that. Town have incomplete information, and they make assumptions and take leaps of faith. They don’t have a choice. Scum on the other hand have all the information. They know who is Town, and who is not. So they can afford to make arguments that appear air tight, and not feel much frustration or anxiety because they know the answers. They know whether a vote gets them closer to their win condition, or whether it puts them in a harder spot. I don’t think Andante’s tell is silly. In fact I thought it made some sense.

I’ve been re-reading your ISO, and I just thought I would post this. Because I do find your detachment somewhat Scummy.

it's a difference of playstyle and of ideology i suppose. i don't think it's inherently scummy to use emotion and feelings to help you make reads or advance the game. of course town screws up, uses convoluted logic sometimes. for me, the best way to avoid making mistakes is to try and remove myself from who i

want

to be scum, who would make the game

easier to solve

if they were scum, and try to look at who actually is, based on the facts. for me, and for many people, allowing myself to get too emotionally attached to the outcome of the game or the flip of a specific player clouds my judgement. andante's accusation was that my overreliance on objectivity and underreliance on emotion made me scummy. i don't believe this is true, just as i don't believe the reverse is true. it may indeed be the case that it is harder for town players to abstract from their own emotions, frustrations, and doubts. but i find it hard to think you'd find an experienced player who argues that relying on logic alone is, in itself, a scumtell.

and there are reasons to read andante as plausibly town, but the posts he cites aren't examples of the ones i see

This is fascinating to me. Insidious has been pushing Andante aggressively for a bit now, explicitly stating that they’re engaged in lazy and terrible play for instance. But then, they say that there are reasons for seeing Andante as Town, but they don’t go into that at all (and I would point out that earlier all they said was that they had been reading Andante as Town on “gut”).

this is just untrue. i had been holding out on specifics in hopes that robert wouldn't just parrot whatever i did say, but i definitely pointed to a couple of more specific reasons than just gut feeling:

388 feels like genuine noobtown wordvomit from someone who is nervous and doesn't understand the game very well yet. i say this because it's painfully similar to how i played my first couple of town games here. the suggestion that scum might try to pocket one of their own buddies is a confusing one to me, but again (call me crazy), reads more like noobtown thinking out loud and smashing the submit button than scum floundering.

i am torn between these reactions being the result of town frustrated that no one else can tell they're town (sort of what greencrayons was talking about in the "thinking the thread revolves around them could be town ai" post),

--------

Andante, i'm curious how 823 makes you feel

seconded. to my knowledge they still haven't responded to this post. their repeated refusal to read and confidence that they won't be voted out for it does feel more like town to me though, based on gut. not sure how common this type of play is from either alignment, but it's ballsy

And then again, they repeat that on gut they could be Town, but don’t switch their vote.

i wanted to keep the pressure on, while also trying to see to what degree andante might try to buddy up to me if i gave them hope i might TR them if they reacted the right way.

In 2183 you say that you never pushed for Dragons, but you definitely left yourself open to voting there, so that’s a bit disingenuous:

i've been on the fence about STD -- posts like 1650 feel like AtE more than genuine input, and their defense of their reactionary voting by pointing out that they hadn't voted me or VFP (?) is a very weak one. but they still don't feel like the best D1 exec to me, and this flash wagon on them reeks of scum opportunism.

if "they made two sus posts but i don't want to exec them and the wagon on them is scummy" counts as a push, then okay, i guess i was being disingenuous. i never advocated for him as an exec option and never voted him. those facts being as they are, i have to say that yes, andante's assertion that i "kept pushing him for 0 fucking reason" (which is what i was responding to) is pretty ridiculous.

I find it a little weird VFP doesn't think to question Asteria at all... like, sure you're VT and someone guessed correctly that you are, just feels like VFP has no doubt with Asteria, so I'm not so sure she's actually neo

that being said: town points to VFP for

not

referencing the above-quoted conversation in response to this attack

why does this get town points? i'm following your case and i have zero problems with it so far

because part of my case on a VFP + Asteria scumteam was that the reaction test was set up to provide evidence in case of exactly this type of push. VFP

not

falling back on that conversation when presented with the opportunity to do so indicates that i was probably wrong about the motivation behind the reaction test.

[InsidiousLemons]

gonna go get some lunch, will be back to catch up a bit shortly

[Andante]

VOTE: osuka

lemons is scaring me. like salsa was quite honestly the one I wanted to get here, not sure what I think of clidd. ahhhh

[clidd]

im at work i cant catch up but i think scum healed me and vfp is scum also healed which means 2 docs

[clidd]

I'll do a more expressive catch up when I have time (or get home).

[Asteria]

Weird post, Asteria.

Scum would have more reasons not to push you after a claim than the other way around.

I'm saying if I'm right on osuka being scum then this is what happened

But that's forcing an unsatisfactory explanation to fit a particular theory of yours and not an impartial thought about Asuka.

I know, I'm not intending to paint it as a case or anything. I'm just saying it's an explanation that fits my read

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: asteria because this wagon needs to not die and i'm confident that slot flips red, then we get vfp tomorrow and it's basically game

not sure i like this reductionism. there are a lot mroe moving parts than just "elim 2 scum to win". asteria's play has been leaning more town to me as the day has progressed. i am still all fucked up about the reaction test but i could see it being genuine, especially with the point andante raised about how she (andante) hinted at checking VFP on D1 and asteria came right out the gate with "we probably checked the same person". i agree that it would be really sweet if asteria flipped red, but it feels like a 50/50 to me and i don't want to do that much heavy lifting for the scum if we're wrong. atp today i would look at T3 and DKKoba as probable scum

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: DkKoba can we try this

[Andante]

it's like, we're not yeeting koba for the same reason we're not yeeting asteria today. 0 chance I think they're real, especially the "docs healed me and VFP" ok, why is your first thought scum saved you? not town has a doc that saved you? idk, I think the vig claim is worse than the neo claim, but we're not yeeting either right now

[InsidiousLemons]

if there's 0 chance you think they're real then vote them with me. what has that slot done this game? what good is a weak vig to us when scum ostensibly have a roleblocker

and

a roleblocker in order for the claim to even hold water?

[InsidiousLemons]

if there's 0 chance you think they're real then vote them with me. what has that slot done this game? what good is a weak vig to us when scum ostensibly have a doctor

and

a roleblocker in order for the claim to even hold water?

EBWOP

[Andante]

if there's 0 chance you think they're real then vote them with me. what has that slot done this game? what good is a weak vig to us when scum ostensibly have a roleblocker

and

a roleblocker in order for the claim to even hold water?

I mean, Koba can't get away with not shooting all game, so I'll leave it, even though they pissed me off last night by thinking they were funny and voting me....

[InsidiousLemons]

the only way a weak vig is materially useful to us is if they hit an unprotected mafia doc tonight. with a 1 in 9 chance of them targeting the right person, plus the likelihood that the mafia doctor will just protect itself, PLUS the much greater possibility of Koba just straight up hitting town... why leave them alive? they are barely in this game. half their ISO is posting to post

p-edit we can't keep saying "we'll let it resolve itself". we have to take action on someone eventually, and sooner or later a PR claim is gonna have to be challenged with a bullet. why not today?