Newbie 2062: The Hubble Telescope - End!


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Newbie 2062: The Hubble Telescope - End!

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:09 am

Post by fferyllt »

Newbie 2062 - The Hubble Telescope

Moderator: fferyllt
Backup Moderator: Cabd


Image



Today marks the 31st anniversary of the Hubble Space Telescope being placed in orbit. This game is dedicated to the history, science and discoveries of the Hubble!

The flavor is purely for your enjoyment (and mine!), and has no effect whatsoever on the NewD3 newbie game setup and rules.


Player List (9)

T3

Ivyeo
*
Bakslash
1
Demainer
Takemikazuchi02
1
orctin

VFP
Clasko

Andante

RationalMadman
(SE)
Rathe
(SE)
JacksonVirgo
(SE)


bold
= confirmed
* = prod
1 = replaced during pregame


Spoiler: Alive
Ivyeo
orctin
VFP
RationalMadman
Rathe
JacksonVirgo


Spoiler: Dead

T3,
Mafia Rolecop
, was eliminated on Day 1
Andante,
Town Doctor
, was killed on Night 1
Demainer,
Mafia Goon
, was eliminated on Day 2


Spoiler: Banished
Let's not go there


Spoiler: Vote Counter Settings
Living PlayersIvyeo
Demainer
orctin
VFP (replaces Clasko)
RationalMadman
Rathe
JacksonVirgo


Links
Last edited by fferyllt on Sat May 08, 2021 8:13 am, edited 17 times in total.
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

On the path to becoming yourself, you'll need to choose alignment over validation from others, peace over addictive chaos, and being misunderstood over false acceptance. --TheHolisticPsychologist
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:10 am

Post by fferyllt »

Setup Info

Newbie Setup
Newbie Setup

NewD3 (as designed by RadiantCowbells):

ABC
Mafia
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon
Row 1
Town Cop and Town Doctor
Town Tracker and Town Friendly Neighbor
Town Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2
Town Jailkeeper and Town Tracker
Town Jailkeeper and Town Friendly Neighbor
Town Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3
Town Mason and Town Mason
Town Tracker and Town Doctor
Town Mason and Town Mason

Each Newbie Game will be given a setup that incorporates one mafia role from the top of a column, and then two town roles from a row below the selected mafia role. The remaining six roles will be filled in by
one mafia goon
and
five vanilla townies
appropriately, to create a
2-mafia
and
7-town
setup.

All Newbie games use the Natural Action Resolution system for determining Night action effects.
Mafia Roleblocker
action takes precedence over a
Town Jailkeeper
action should that apply.

Mafia are able to communicate in their Private Topic at all times.


Spoiler: Full Setups
Column A & Row 1:
Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Cop, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column A & Row 2:
Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column A & Row 3:
Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column B & Row 1:
Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column B & Row 2:
Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Friendly Neighbor, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column B & Row 3:
Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Tracker, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column C & Row 1:
Mafia Goon x 2, Town Cop, Vanilla Townie x 6
Column C & Row 2:
Mafia Goon x 2, Town Jailkeeper, Vanilla Townie x 6
Column C & Row 3:
Mafia Goon x 2, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5



Sample Role PM's (click on the spoiler button to reveal)

Spoiler:
Vanilla TownieWelcome!

You are a
Vanilla Townie
.

You have no special abilities.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town JailkeeperWelcome!

You are a
Town Jailkeeper
.

You may target one player per night phase. This player will be protected from kills and be prevented from using their own action, if they have one, during that night phase. You cannot target yourself.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town CopWelcome!

You are a
Town Cop
.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed if they are
Town
or
Mafia
. If you are roleblocked, you will receive no result.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town MasonWelcome!

You are a
Town Mason
.

You know that [player] is Town-aligned. You also share a Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

You have no active abilities.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

Town TrackerWelcome!

You are a
Town Tracker
.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed what player or players they targeted with their action, if any. If you are roleblocked, you will receive no result.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town DoctorWelcome!

You are a
Town Doctor
.

You may target one player per night phase. This player will be protected from kills during that night phase. You cannot target yourself.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.


Town Friendly NeighborWelcome!

You are a
Town Friendly Neighbor
.

You may target one player per night phase. This player will be sent a message informing them that you are Town-aligned.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.


Mafia GoonWelcome!

You are a
Mafia Goon
.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You also share a factional Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

Mafia RolecopWelcome!

You are a
Mafia Rolecop
.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed of their role but not their alignment.
Vanilla Townies
and
Mafia Goons
will both return "Vanilla". If you are roleblocked, you will receive no result.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You may commit the kill and perform a role cop in the same night phase. You also share a factional Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.
Mafia RoleblockerWelcome!

You are a
Mafia Roleblocker
.

You may target one player per night. This player will be prevented from performing their own action, if any.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You may commit the kill and perform a roleblock in the same night phase. You also share a factional Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.


The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

On the path to becoming yourself, you'll need to choose alignment over validation from others, peace over addictive chaos, and being misunderstood over false acceptance. --TheHolisticPsychologist
Idic
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:11 am

Post by fferyllt »


Rules:


In-Game Behavior


1.
Site Rules are in effect. Please familiarize yourself and follow them.


2. Posts consisting purely of insults without game content are not tolerated. I penalize such posts with a strike. Three strikes and you're out. Severe issues will be reported to the listmods.

3. Claiming scum is allowed. Claiming scum with another player (whether as a joke or not) will result in severe consequences for you, and consequences for your team.

4. Play towards your win condition. Gambits are fine, directly harming your own team is not.

5. Loophole abuse is not tolerated.

6. Have fun! There are a lot of great people who play, discuss mafia game theory and practice, and discuss life, the universe and everything, too, here at Mafiascum.net. During and after this game, please take a look around the site and get to know us. I think you'll like what you see.


Voting and Deadlines:



1. Voting must be bolded in the form
Vote: Player
- bold tags

Code: Select all

[b]Vote: Player[/b]
or

VOTE: Player vote tags

Code: Select all

[vote]Player[/vote]


or else they will not be counted. Unvotes are not required to change your vote, but they are helpful. Please note: I'm using an automated vote counter.
If you don't use the vote tags, be sure to add a colon after the word "Vote".


2. Votes inside of spoiler tags will not be counted.

3. I don't mind if you use nicknames/abbreviations when you vote someone. But if I have no idea who you're voting for, then the vote won't be counted. Please note: the vote counting application may be more finicky about nicknames than I am. If you notice that your vote hasn't been recorded, please let me know.

4. Eliminations require a majority of votes: (number of living players/2) +1, rounded down.

5. If there's no majority at deadline, there's no elimination.

6. When the hammer vote is cast, all players, including the eliminated may talk freely until the final vote count and eliminated player's card-flip have been posted. I will lock the game thread at that time.

6. Once you are dead, you may not post in the game thread again. Not even a "Bah" post.

7. Deadlines are set at 10 days on Day 1 and 7 days for subsequent game days. and Extensions may be granted if there are replacements near deadline, or under other extraordinary circumstances (e.g., site outages, major holidays).


Prods and Replacements:


Replacing Out
If you need to replace out of this game, send me a private message about it. Do NOT post that you want to be replaced, or that you have asked to be replaced in the game thread.
I will acknowledge your replacement request by replying to your PM. From that time forward, you are out of the game. Do not make any posts in the game thread.

This is a site rule that can entail penalties if broken. It applies to all mafia games at Mafiascum.net unless the game moderator explicitly states otherwise.



1. Prods will be given if you do not post in
36 hours
.

2. You will be replaced if you either do not respond to a prod, or need to be prodded more than 3 times total. You may request for a player to be prodded at any time. Prods requested when a player has been absent for less than 36 hours do not count for replacement purposes.

3. If you are V/LA (on vacation/have limited access), make sure I know. If you are V/LA for more than a week, I suggest requesting replacement, but it's not required. If a lengthy V/LA is adversely affecting the game (e.g., if you are not able to post minimally during that time), then your mod may replace you.without penalty.


Misc.



1. Dark Blue (#004080) is the color I will use for mod posts. Please don’t use this color or otherwise try to make your posts look like mod posts.

2. You can talk about the game in the private threads given to you via PM, assuming you were given one. Otherwise, please refrain from talking about this game outside of this thread, and don't talk about other games inside of this game. This is a sitewide rule. See announcement here.


3. No editing, deleting, using invisible texts, write in code, using font sizes less than 70, etc...

4. Don't quote or talk about any mod-recieved PMs. Your flavor is for you to enjoy and you only, until the end of the game.

5. I make mistakes. If you notice I make one, please let me know.

6. Questions are vastly preferable to Modkills. If you're thinking about to do something that you're unsure is within the letter or spirit of these rules and the game of mafia, then ask me privately about it first.


Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

On the path to becoming yourself, you'll need to choose alignment over validation from others, peace over addictive chaos, and being misunderstood over false acceptance. --TheHolisticPsychologist
Idic
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:12 am

Post by fferyllt »

Introduction and Tips
Thanks to Irrelephant11 and others for their contributions to these tips.


Here are some helpful links (a lot of them from our helpful wiki):

-> Forum Rules and Guidelines
-> The Glossary
-> Commonly Used Abbreviations
-> The Newbie Guide
-> Articles on How to Play Well (be sure to check the dates these were written/updated, as good advice changes over time)


Key Concepts and Tips


Activity


Try to check in at least once a day.
Besides the activity requirements listed in the moderator's original post, it's just necessary for a fun and healthy game that everyone
plays
. If you post very rarely, or only post a little bit at a time, you may get scumread for lurking. Even if you are not scumread for it, what's the fun in playing a game where multiple people are hardly participating?

Site Meta


Meta is the description of how people on Mafiascum like to play mafia. Things can be different on other online mafia sites, or if you play IRL, so it's good to know what's expected of you on this site. These aren't "rules", per se, but if you don't follow these guidelines it is likely things will go poorly for you on MS. Some examples are...

Random Voting Stage (RVS)

Games on MafiaScum almost always begin with what we call the Random Voting Stage (RVS). At this point in the game, we are in a low information game state (except the mafia, which know everyone’s alignment). As a way to provoke reaction, start a discussion, and try to determine alignment, people will usually vote for non-serious reasons. As the discussion progresses, we will eventually get the game moving and progress out of RVS.

Voting, E-x, and Hammers

E-x is a way to convey how far away a player is away from elimination. For example, you should always announce that you are putting someone at E-1 (1 vote away from an elimination) so that someone doesn’t come along and accidentally vote for that player's elimination. This also prevents Mafia-aligned players from coming along and placing the final vote to eliminate (“hammer”) and claiming ignorance about doing so. You may also see E-2 and E-3 (2 votes away from elimination and 3 votes away from elimination, respectively).

Before you hammer a player, state your intent to hammer (usually done in bold) and ask the player to claim their role. This is done to prevent power roles from being eliminated, and can sometimes get Mafia-aligned players to be caught (via counter claiming). It's best to then allow other players to react and discuss the claim before hammering.


Claiming Your Role

It is almost always best to not claim your role unless you are at E-1 and have been asked to claim as part of an “intent to hammer.” This is because, as a town power role (“PR”), if you out prematurely, you are likely to be night-killed (“NK’d”). As a Vanilla Townie (“VT”), claiming early helps the mafia team narrow down the setup and possible PR candidates. An exception to this would be if a mafia player claimed your role, claiming early to counter the false claim (“CC”) would out the mafia player, and would be a benefit to the town.

Do not fake claim a power role as town!
While it may help you avoid getting eliminated, you might cause a real PR to out themselves by counterclaiming - then the mafia will know who the PR is, and you will probably get eliminated for lying to town. Feel free to fake a claim as scum, though, if you think it would help.

ELo

ELo is the shortened representation of “Eliminate or Lose.” ELo in the Newbie Queue is when there are 3 remaining players, 2 of which are town and 1 is mafia; or when there are 5 remaining players, 3 of which are town and 2 are mafia. It is important in these situations that the town aligned players do not carelessly vote like is done during RVS or early days, as the mafia player(s) can organize and instantly provide the necessary votes to eliminate (“quickhammer”) and win the game.

Conclusion

Mafia is hard!
As town, it can be hard to figure things out, and stressful when people think you're scum.
That's okay!
Just share your thoughts on who you think is scum as they come to you, and don't be afraid to change your mind. As scum, it can be hard to lie convincingly, and stressful when people think you're scum. Don't let that scare you! Try to think of what you would post if you were town, and don't be afraid to "change your mind".

This is a game.
Have fun!
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

On the path to becoming yourself, you'll need to choose alignment over validation from others, peace over addictive chaos, and being misunderstood over false acceptance. --TheHolisticPsychologist
Idic
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:16 am

Post by fferyllt »

This is the Pregame Phase. I'll send out Role Private Messages (PMs) during the next few hours. Please respond to your Role PM with your alignment (Town or Mafia) and Role Name to confirm that you have received it.

You have 48 hours from the time I send you the Role PM to respond. If you cannot respond by then, I will seek a replacement.

Once 8 of the 9 players have confirmed via PM reply, the game will begin!

I'll update this post as we progress through Pregame.

Image


I will continue to update this post with progress toward Day 1 Start. I just want to give you a heads up. If we don't get at least 1 more confirmation before (expired on 2021-04-27 14:30:00) have elapsed, I will seek replacements for them and start the game right after at least one replacement confirms.

All Role PMs
will go out shortly
have gone out!

Image


48 hours have elapsed since role PMs went out, so replacements have taken place for the players who haven't confirmed.

Ivyeo and Demainer replace Bakslash and Takemikazuchi02, respectively!

8 of 9 players have confirmed.

Day 1 will start momentarily!

Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

On the path to becoming yourself, you'll need to choose alignment over validation from others, peace over addictive chaos, and being misunderstood over false acceptance. --TheHolisticPsychologist
Idic
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:21 pm

Post by fferyllt »

Vote Count 1-1
Day 1 Begins!


Image


"On April 25, 1990, NASA placed the Hubble Space Telescope into low orbit around Earth. It wasn’t the first telescope placed into orbit, but it’s been one of the longest-lasting and most versatile, providing gorgeous images of space that have furthered our understanding of astronomy and introduced future generations to the magic of the universe."
-- Elizabeth Blackstock,
This Day In History: Hubble Space Telescope Goes Into Orbit



Not Voting
(9): Andante, orctin, JacksonVirgo, Demainer, T3, Clasko, Rathe, Ivyeo, RationalMadman


With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.



Deadline: May 8, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-05-07 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- Demainer has 40 hours in which to post before I must search for a replacement. (expired on 2021-04-29 14:30:00)
- :]
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

On the path to becoming yourself, you'll need to choose alignment over validation from others, peace over addictive chaos, and being misunderstood over false acceptance. --TheHolisticPsychologist
Idic
User avatar
Ivyeo
Ivyeo
Goon
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Goon
Goon
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:25 pm

Post by Ivyeo »

VOTE: Clasko
It's impossible to be Pr twice in a row
/s
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Contact:

Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:38 pm

Post by JacksonVirgo »

VOTE: Andante

This is for being a chad in the other game.
Tactical Lurker
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Andante
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:08 pm

Post by Andante »

VOTE: Ivyeo

Alright, so Ivyeo is scum this game, based on the way they entered the game. Scum is statistically more likely to enter the game first, and the first post they made reads to me as scum. Sorry I don’t write the rules, but we caught Ivyeo in the act. If I had to guess, whoever is last to enter is gonna be scum too, but don’t quote me yet, cause 2nd scum is gonna sit there in shock that their partner was caught so soon, and they’re going to have no idea how to respond here. In case anything I said before wasn’t clear, Ivyeo is scum this game. Just vote them and thank me later. gg
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:16 pm

Post by Ivyeo »

Alright FFery who is my teamate, make sure not to fall for their trick and actually be last to double bluff them
Oh no! meant to send that in scumchat, guess we're outed :c
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:12 pm

Post by RationalMadman »

In post 8, Andante wrote:the way they entered the game. Scum is statistically more likely to enter the game first, and the first post they made reads to me as scum.
Obviously I get it, it's sarcasm and random voting is happening with nonsense reasoning to gauge reactions.

However, there is something off about hiw far you went with this post to make that clear/obvious.

The part I have quoted on its own would have perhaos baited a newbie player to make a scummy or towny response. The rest you added on broadcasted the sarcasm a lnd melodramatism of the post, ruining what the reactions would reveal. It basically feels like overly acting scum to me.

Obviously I get it, it was intended to be blatant sarcasm regardless from your viewpoint but there's something I don't like about the general tone of the rest of it. It feels like 'haha, I'm just posting nonsense' whereas the part I quoted would have potentially been a far better tone to a naive newbie reader, to see how they attack it.
Everyone's a fool in some ways, we all can only try.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:14 pm

Post by RationalMadman »

I rarely vote fast unless I think the vote will genuinely be worth the reaction it gets, so I'm not gonna vote Andante as there's already one on her. However, my read is serious, I scumread her as a gut read from that intro post.
Everyone's a fool in some ways, we all can only try.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:16 pm

Post by RationalMadman »

Sorry for the typos btw, I type clumsy on a phone. I'll get to a computer later.
Everyone's a fool in some ways, we all can only try.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:00 pm

Post by Andante »

my post was literally a joke? why are you taking it so seriously?
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orctin
orctin
Townie
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:06 pm

Post by orctin »

Cause it's a good play for a scummie to push on anther who made a high profile post. at the very least it attracts attention where scum want it - away from them.

Hello all, first game here but i know the game playing elsewhere so thought i would finally try my hand here.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:19 pm

Post by Ivyeo »

In post 13, Andante wrote:my post was literally a joke? why are you taking it so seriously?
It could have had *some* value, but it was too much to be of any use. RVS still has some value to be gained from it.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:22 pm

Post by T3 »

Initial tr on RationalMadman for actually doing stuff.
I don't think "sarcastic" RVS posts are that AI but I didn't like Andnte's reaction.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:26 pm

Post by Demainer »

Ivy is scum, I know it.

VOTE: Ivyeo
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:29 pm

Post by T3 »

In post 17, Demainer wrote:Ivy is scum, I know it.

VOTE: Ivyeo
RVS?
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:15 pm

Post by Demainer »

Why do you think my vote is rvs?
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:28 pm

Post by T3 »

In post 19, Demainer wrote:Why do you think my vote is rvs?
Because you say "I know Ivy is scum" without any reason.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:30 pm

Post by JacksonVirgo »

VOTE: T3 entrance seems forced and like they don't know how to make an entrance. T3's read on Rational is also nothing they should be town-reading them for logically. Scum has a very easy job at creating early content as there is less to work on and form a legitimate looking town perspective, that and if you actually take into consideration their content. Majority of it was accepting the fact that it's satire and a small portion is explaining their read and it's overall gut.

The reasonings to why Andante's entrance is bad is plain wrong in my opinion. Rational pulling apart Andante's entrance, acknowledging it's satire, shading them and then proceeding to not vote there because I was there is a completely weird argument and doesn't hold much weight but gut reads are gut reads and I know that all too well so I am not going to pull it apart too much and I am not stating it's scummy in and of itself. Also to add to that, if Rational flips scum, we need to have a look at Orc because of that response taking into consideration that they're a newbie, I am not expanding on that as I don't like giving heavy logic around an associative read prior to them flipping to prove that case.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:39 pm

Post by T3 »

From my experience early gutreads tend to be from town. Also, this seems to be his first game in a number of years and not what I would expect from a brand newbie.
Demainer's entrance feels very forced, and nothing like 2060 where he came into the game cheerfully, scumread some people. Here he just votes Ivy (in an apparently serious vote) and says he somehow knows she is scum.
VOTE: Demainer
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:43 am

Post by RationalMadman »

In post 21, JacksonVirgo wrote:Also to add to that, if Rational flips scum, we need to have a look at Orc because of that response taking into consideration that they're a newbie, I am not expanding on that as I don't like giving heavy logic around an associative read prior to them flipping to prove that case.
If I am town why is Orc less likely to be scun than if I am scum, considering the reaction to me?
Everyone's a fool in some ways, we all can only try.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:52 am

Post by RationalMadman »

Since there are no votes on Andante at all, now I will vote. Also, I townread Ivyeo very much for her third response to things being designed to push for new avenues of debate as well as keep old ones going. I also townread that her ibitial reaction matched the vibe of Andante despite Andante voting her, it shows that she was feeling friendly towards Andante despite having every reason to quietly hide resentment, she actually pushes further on the scummy read on her, laughing with the joke that she's scum. The fact she found amusement in it is a subconscious sign she knows she's town in her mind and finds it amusing the reasoning Andante used. This is a very towny way to approach the early DP1, including that she also defends my attack without defending the logic itself. This is even supporting that she found it amusing how Andante put so much effort into justifying a joke reason.

VOTE: Andante

Also, JacksonVirgo is town for the logic and effort put in. To that post where they change their vote.
Everyone's a fool in some ways, we all can only try.
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