Open 810 | Aliensitter Needed! | Mafia wins

[GrandpaMo]

mena better carry me hard this game or hes scumbag

Gosh dammit Pooky.

[Almost50]

@Grandpa: You SR me. That much I know is a bad read (let's assume you are a townie here). I don't know you from before so I have no other reference to evaluate the quality of your reads (like, are usually bad, or you usually have a 50% hit rate, or you tunnel, or you think in a different way than most do.. etc). Since this is the case; I can only ignore your reads (and the reasoning behind them) until further notice.

Let me give you an example: I know exactly why Pooky TRs my outburst. He was Scum with me before. He was Scum AGAINST Town me before. I was Scum against Town him before. We know what to expect from each other (well, aside from the usual 1-on-1 manipulation and what not).

I know to follow Bingle's mechanical advice regardless. I have appealed to him before -me being a townie

knowing

suspecting he was Scum- to give me the optimal mechanical play because

I know

he wouldn't lie about this one bit.

Hell, in TM2021 I appealed to him (through his teammate playing in my game) to give a read on me, knowing (and explicitly saying) I may appear less townie than the first iteration to many, but to Bingle I am even townier in the second iteration. (First iteration got abandoned and we played the game all over again).

You are one of exactly 3 players in this game who have not met me before (the other two being Luke & Prof), so I don't hold it against you to theorize what you will about my play.

As for not reading post walls, that's nothing personal. Everyone knows I don't read mastina's posts (one example of a player who likes to do wall after wall). Even she doesn't hold it against me. I hate walls and tend to lose concentration while trying to read them.

Bottom line: You are free to SR me all you wnat, and you can make all cases/assumption your heart desires. Just do it with respect. Thank you (and I apologize for snapping at you, but I didn't like the tone of your post directed at me).

[Bingle]

Good Post!

Nah.

Basically every bit of analysis is off point.

[Almost50]

(A50 said he SR’s VPN not you, if that makes things more clear)

He put me as the solve. Probably just to see my reaction. My gamesolve is Lukewarm/A50/ >>> There is a world where A50 is paired with Pooky just because of openly defending. That means that would make Gypx and Darp both town which is a weird read honestly. I still need to get info.

This is what Flavor Leaf (another top player on this site) would call "surface level logic". Just because someone defends another doesn't necessarily link them in any way, shape or form.

And -on fact- it is contradictory to your theory about me defending TOWN Bingle (as per your own assumptions). So, tell this: How come Pooky is Scum with me for defending me, and Bingle is Town because I defended him? (Take a deep breath.. look at your own propositions.. then try to answer this TO YOURSELF).

[Almost50]

mena better carry me hard this game or hes scumbag

You think he's strong enough to carry a bear??

[GrandpaMo]

@Grandpa: You SR me. That much I know is a bad read (let's assume you are a townie here). I don't know you from before so I have no other reference to evaluate the quality of your reads (like, are usually bad, or you usually have a 50% hit rate, or you tunnel, or you think in a different way than most do.. etc). Since this is the case; I can only ignore your reads (and the reasoning behind them) until further notice.

Let me give you an example: I know exactly why Pooky TRs my outburst. He was Scum with me before. He was Scum AGAINST Town me before. I was Scum against Town him before. We know what to expect from each other (well, aside from the usual 1-on-1 manipulation and what not).

I know to follow Bingle's mechanical advice regardless. I have appealed to him before -me being a townie

knowing

suspecting he was Scum- to give me the optimal mechanical play because

I know

he wouldn't lie about this one bit.

Hell, in TM2021 I appealed to him (through his teammate playing in my game) to give a read on me, knowing (and explicitly saying) I may appear less townie than the first iteration to many, but to Bingle I am even townier in the second iteration. (First iteration got abandoned and we played the game all over again).

You are one of exactly 3 players in this game who have not met me before (the other two being Luke & Prof), so I don't hold it against you to theorize what you will about my play.

As for not reading post walls, that's nothing personal. Everyone knows I don't read mastina's posts (one example of a player who likes to do wall after wall). Even she doesn't hold it against me. I hate walls and tend to lose concentration while trying to read them.

Bottom line: You are free to SR me all you wnat, and you can make all cases/assumption your heart desires. Just do it with respect. Thank you (and I apologize for snapping at you, but I didn't like the tone of your post directed at me).

Sorry for the passive aggressive tone. I apologize. I don't mean to make it seem like I am pushing you out of spite. And ofc we can call each other read's bad because it is wrong in that perception. I look at the reasoning behind reads and see if they are well equipped with a town mindset. In my case, I thought what you did was scum and how you played along the interaction with Bingle and Pooky. I can go ahead and go meta read which I probably will so I can look at how you usually play and interact with others. I find it more with a town mindset to actually to give input on reads so you saying "I can only ignore your reads (and the reasoning) until further notice" is a little of scum mindset however you did say until further notice. I don't know explciitly what that means but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that later on maybe you will give input regardless of someone's reads on you etc. And yes I said that Bingle was town for giving the optimal play and I saw this as a good read. However, it just seemed weird especially with you and Lukewarm. Also there is references you could use and that could be meta anaylsis. Look at my previous games I have played town and etc. That is sort of bias which is eh, but to reiterate; it will give some insight onto how I could be town in your eyes.

Question: How do you feel about lukewarm?

[GrandpaMo]

(A50 said he SR’s VPN not you, if that makes things more clear)

He put me as the solve. Probably just to see my reaction. My gamesolve is Lukewarm/A50/ >>> There is a world where A50 is paired with Pooky just because of openly defending. That means that would make Gypx and Darp both town which is a weird read honestly. I still need to get info.

This is what Flavor Leaf (another top player on this site) would call "surface level logic". Just because someone defends another doesn't necessarily link them in any way, shape or form.

And -on fact- it is contradictory to your theory about me defending TOWN Bingle (as per your own assumptions). So, tell this: How come Pooky is Scum with me for defending me, and Bingle is Town because I defended him? (Take a deep breath.. look at your own propositions.. then try to answer this TO YOURSELF).

Yup. That is surface level logic and I implied it here... "just because of openly defending" Trust me, you would expect amazing plays from pooky but honestly from the town playstyle I have seen pooky play, it seems quite different. I was pointing out a world where Pooky is scum and that is because I had pooky in my null read because they and still can be debatable and I really need more insight towrads EoD because like in Newbie 2059 I do NOT want to shitpush you again @pooky.

[GrandpaMo]

(A50 said he SR’s VPN not you, if that makes things more clear)

He put me as the solve. Probably just to see my reaction. My gamesolve is Lukewarm/A50/ >>> There is a world where A50 is paired with Pooky just because of openly defending. That means that would make Gypx and Darp both town which is a weird read honestly. I still need to get info.

This is what Flavor Leaf (another top player on this site) would call "surface level logic". Just because someone defends another doesn't necessarily link them in any way, shape or form.

And -on fact- it is contradictory to your theory about me defending TOWN Bingle (as per your own assumptions). So, tell this: How come Pooky is Scum with me for defending me, and Bingle is Town because I defended him? (Take a deep breath.. look at your own propositions.. then try to answer this TO YOURSELF).

Not once have I pointed out that you were defending Bingle. Please read my analysis and look at really why I townread Bingle. I never townread bingle because you were trying to "defend" or whatever you are saying here. I was scum leaning you because it makes it seem like you were tryna scumside with Bingle and pocket Bingle.

[GrandpaMo]

Good Post!

I'll take your word for it. I never read wallposts myself.

Okay. If you actually tend to read me in the future. Don't make any BS claims. All reads I have posted is in that under Bingle's reads if you want a TLDR.

Stop being a passive ass mafia.

Wow. Much of the Dark Side I sense in you. Calm down you should. And -most of all- BEHAVE or I'll MAKE YOU.

I just saw this. Lol, and sorry I get frustrated when people don't read and comprehend what I said especially in my wallposts because I spend so much time writing them.

[VFP]

I think A50 needs to stop defending Town Bingle.

Grampa could actually be scum though.

[Bingle]

So through these analytical posts... I don't think mafia goes out in their way to actually give out on what town does. Mafia specifically in this setup where it is their job to figure out PRs does not give PRs help unless its direct manipulation to favor a specific result. However, seeing what Bingle has said, I doubt there is a world where Bingle actually does this as mafia. Looking back at their older games, they seem the same as their townplaystyle. Also their continued aggression and coherent reads are okay, there is some I disagree with however and I will explain later.

Exactly wrong. Scum loves to hide in mechspeak.

Looking at post 41, this is a very towny entrance from Mena and like I said why I townread Mena from early game. Mafia is more inclined to just stay back and let town push and interact members. However, they could be experienced enough to just do that as Mafia. But usually from the games I have played in, this is what I have been through and seen and it is usually right; early pushes (especially the first player) tend to be town. Also something to remark, is that if Drap is scum this is the only reference I see them scum in early game and that is in post 35. I replied to Mena hoping for an answer on this, but no answer sadly.

No.

Honestly, this is a bad pairing for this reason. I doubt mafia busses day 1 in this setup. Bingle is hard pushing Gypyx and while everyone is pushing Drap, Bingle is staying on with a read that they think Gypyx is scum (look at post 99 where they they say a Gypx BW is more spicy implying wanting it more). This is a weird enterence too but at least its better than lukewarm's enterence. You are still null since you haven't done nothing that scummy right after.

I... What? Dann's read is bad because I pushed Gypyx afterwards? What?

The next two bits of analysis are A50 and me saying functionally the same thing about me, and a townread on me + scumread on A50 for it.

I'm fascinated how g-pa knows he disagrees with all of my reads when I've given reasoning for very few of them, but the preflip pairing of Luke and Monkey is p gross.

148 is a fine post and being willing to back down isn't inherently scummy at all.

[Bingle]

I think A50 needs to stop defending Town Bingle.

I would be genuinely shocked to find A50 was townreading me here.

[Almost50]

@Grandpa: I have no read -as of yet- on Luke. Nothing he said or did strikes me as AI (most of his posts could come from either alignment tbh). However -as I said- Luke is one of the players I haven't played before, so I don't really know what to expect from Town/Scum him.

Oh, and one more thing: I sometimes keep my read list "vague", so as to protect my strongest TRs. I may or may not list them in my TRs to begin with, and if I choose to.. I put "the whole pack" as a bulk (not ordered by strength). This me saying you shouldn't expect a detailed read list with reasoning from me anytime soon (at least for the entirety of D1).

[Almost50]

I think A50 needs to stop defending Town Bingle.

I would be genuinely shocked to find A50 was townreading me here.

Unless I talk in my sleep; I don't believe I stated a single TR on any of the players in this game as of yet.

[Almost50]

^Bingle and Menalque are the two players here most familiar with this tactic of mine. (Not giving read lists so as to protect my "suspected PRs" and Strongest TRs)

[Bingle]

Unless I talk in my sleep; I don't believe I stated a single TR on any of the players in this game as of yet.

You haven't. I was correcting the misread that you think I'm significantly more likely to be town than scum, when I think we both know you leanscum me atm.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

im just letting it be known i am unlikely to read anything written in wallspeak.

[Lukewarm]

Grandpa, I am a bit confused by your logic on me tbh.

This is a really weird entrance. I think something that should be noticed. They come into the game with a read already done being made on Prof. They vote them and probably make some random meme excuse as mafia.

Post 79 Im not sure why you are taking it so seriously. I did not have a read whatso ever on ProfessorDrapion at the time, I think it was quite obviously my RVS vote. And I am just curious why you honed in on my RVS in particular. Gypyx rvs'ed professor for saying "first." VFP voted T3 with no reason.

You

voted VFP for not being able to see the future. I voted Professor because he claimed to be a talking pokemon. I am curious, what made you take my RVS serious compared to all of these others?

I will further exemplify Lukewarm's scumread on a later post that I have added but basically Bingle gives info against Lukewarm because Lukewarm pushed the narrative of why psych outting in which Almost50 made that post and I gave my reason on why they were scum above btw!! But after that post from Almost50, lukewarm instantly backs down. And it seems like mafia tried to push this narrative where they didn't want psych to out because they could set up a CC later hence why Almost50 tried to signal them to backdown; it would be more of wifom to say it in day chat.

And I cannot even follow this logic tbh.

You are saying that I saw advice coming from Bingle, that I think would out both the psych and the sitter to the thread, and then, as scum, I tried to make the case that that was bad for town instead of letting that plan play out to the benefit of the scum team? And then, A50, as my scum partner, told me to drop it in Day Chat, instead using the mafia chat?

This chain of reasoning leaves me very confused.

Your analysis on the interaction between me and Almost50 completely ignores the fact that me and Bingle had a multiple post back and forth leading up to Almost 50 weighing in.

In post 117 I said that I did not like the advice given by bingle. In post 118 bingle said for me to not question him, which I found... odd. So in post 123 I said I was now suspicious of him because of that interaction.

In post 129 Bingle came back and responded to my suspicions, and said that this kind of post was "a tried and true strategy Bingle has used as both town and scum for literally years to a pretty good result." Then A50 responded to the back and forth with post 134 confirming Bingle's claim that he always makes these kinds of posts, and that him doing so is NAI.

So I backed down from my stance. If he does it every game, town or mafia, then it is NAI, so why would I continue to push it?

Do you find it scummy for people to change their stances after being presented with new information?

[VFP]

Pooky maybe town.

I think I have enough reads to coast on by for day 1 now, or until I see something that catches my eye.

[Bingle]

@Pooks

I'll let you know if there's important bidness in the walls, dw.

Do you have motivation/reads yet?

[GrandpaMo]

So through these analytical posts... I don't think mafia goes out in their way to actually give out on what town does. Mafia specifically in this setup where it is their job to figure out PRs does not give PRs help unless its direct manipulation to favor a specific result. However, seeing what Bingle has said, I doubt there is a world where Bingle actually does this as mafia. Looking back at their older games, they seem the same as their townplaystyle. Also their continued aggression and coherent reads are okay, there is some I disagree with however and I will explain later.

Exactly wrong. Scum loves to hide in mechspeak.

Eh this early? I doubt that. I still townread you. You wouldn't be risking that as scum.

Looking at post 41, this is a very towny entrance from Mena and like I said why I townread Mena from early game. Mafia is more inclined to just stay back and let town push and interact members. However, they could be experienced enough to just do that as Mafia. But usually from the games I have played in, this is what I have been through and seen and it is usually right; early pushes (especially the first player) tend to be town. Also something to remark, is that if Drap is scum this is the only reference I see them scum in early game and that is in post 35. I replied to Mena hoping for an answer on this, but no answer sadly.

No.

? This wasn't directed at you anywhere.

Honestly, this is a bad pairing for this reason. I doubt mafia busses day 1 in this setup. Bingle is hard pushing Gypyx and while everyone is pushing Drap, Bingle is staying on with a read that they think Gypyx is scum (look at post 99 where they they say a Gypx BW is more spicy implying wanting it more). This is a weird entrance too but at least its better than lukewarm's enterence. You are still null since you haven't done nothing that scummy right after.

I... What? Dann's read is bad because I pushed Gypyx afterwards? What?

Yes. I don't know where you got that logic of "afterwards" but I stated just how you saw me pairing luke + monkey is a bad pairing. I am obliged to say Dann pairing you and Gypx is bad because of the fact that you were solely pushing Gypx and I doubt mafia would take that chance to bus day 1 when there was already a scum narrative being pushed against Drap. I thought I made that clear.

The next two bits of analysis are A50 and me saying functionally the same thing about me, and a townread on me + scumread on A50 for it.

There is a difference. You initiated it and you are the actual read for it. That is a fallacy because you are stating about you are self. A50 is not you and is another member of this game so of course there will be a different reasoning based on what you said. What logic are you trying to prove? I explained why and I am keen to believe it could be true.

I'm fascinated how g-pa knows he disagrees with all of my reads when I've given reasoning for very few of them, but the preflip pairing of Luke and Monkey is p gross.

You are trying to make it seem like I am scumreading you for having wrong reads. I just disagreed and gave my reads with MY reasoning which should tell you why I disagree...again what the fuck logic is this. We agreed on like 2 some reads.

148 is a fine post and being willing to back down isn't inherently scummy at all.

Can you explain why?

[GrandpaMo]

Grandpa, I am a bit confused by your logic on me tbh.

This is a really weird entrance. I think something that should be noticed. They come into the game with a read already done being made on Prof. They vote them and probably make some random meme excuse as mafia.

Post 79 Im not sure why you are taking it so seriously. I did not have a read whatso ever on ProfessorDrapion at the time, I think it was quite obviously my RVS vote. And I am just curious why you honed in on my RVS in particular. Gypyx rvs'ed professor for saying "first." VFP voted T3 with no reason.

You

voted VFP for not being able to see the future. I voted Professor because he claimed to be a talking pokemon. I am curious, what made you take my RVS serious compared to all of these others?

That is because there were already reads being made on Drap. I do not know if you looked at those reads previously and realized there were votes being made. So it just seemed you were sheeping from my perspective and just would claim RVS (the second part of your quote) as an excuse to vote Drap.

I will further exemplify Lukewarm's scumread on a later post that I have added but basically Bingle gives info against Lukewarm because Lukewarm pushed the narrative of why psych outting in which Almost50 made that post and I gave my reason on why they were scum above btw!! But after that post from Almost50, lukewarm instantly backs down. And it seems like mafia tried to push this narrative where they didn't want psych to out because they could set up a CC later hence why Almost50 tried to signal them to backdown; it would be more of wifom to say it in day chat.

And I cannot even follow this logic tbh.

You are saying that I saw advice coming from Bingle, that I think would out both the psych and the sitter to the thread, and then, as scum, I tried to make the case that that was bad for town instead of letting that plan play out to the benefit of the scum team? And then, A50, as my scum partner, told me to drop it in Day Chat, instead using the mafia chat?

So basically coming from a different community; I have seen this initiated through scum inhabitance. So basically what happens is 1st scum pressures town >>> Town then pressures 1st scum >>> 2nd scum hops on >>> 1st scum backs down.

That end bit could just be an overreach, I do agree and that is because of what I seen and initially they flipped scum. Honestly I actually like this post done on me and I am starting to get paranoid. However, that is what I have seen.

This chain of reasoning leaves me very confused.

Your analysis on the interaction between me and Almost50 completely ignores the fact that me and Bingle had a multiple post back and forth leading up to Almost 50 weighing in.

Again, this is where like I see it as you know you are interacting with town then scum joins in etc.

In post 117 I said that I did not like the advice given by bingle. In post 118 bingle said for me to not question him, which I found... odd. So in post 123 I said I was now suspicious of him because of that interaction.

Then why did you back down in post 148?? That was after Almost50 came and said what they said. You see now??? This is why I find you weird.

In post 129 Bingle came back and responded to my suspicions, and said that this kind of post was "a tried and true strategy Bingle has used as both town and scum for literally years to a pretty good result." Then A50 responded to the back and forth with post 134 confirming Bingle's claim that he always makes these kinds of posts, and that him doing so is NAI.

So I backed down from my stance. If he does it every game, town or mafia, then it is NAI, so why would I continue to push it?

Do you find it scummy for people to change their stances after being presented with new information?

No. I find it scummy that you are not inclined to push your scumread. You scumread them. So why would you believe someone else's claim another person? Have you done your research? Have you looked at their previosu games and saw that they do this? Probably not. So what are you willing to believe. With a town mindset, I would see you to keep pushing the person you had wanted to push and not be scared to push them. Do you understand what I am trying to get at?

[Lukewarm]

As for why I scumlean Professor, it was a combination of a bunch of posts.

Spoiler:

30 / 31 - he joins a joke wagon after the joke played out

35 - he blindly accepted the bingle plan that I still think is bad for town

70 - calls someone out for their rvs vote

96 - jumps on a new gypyx wagon, saying "I can get behind this" without any other information as to why he agreed with it, plus that was the first time he had mentioned gypyx

105 - still harping over T3's rvs vote

113 - this was the thing that made me iso him tbh. Blindly accepts Almost50's (I think) joke post about vfp.

Once I iso'ed him, I saw a lot of evidence that he was just following whatever other people were saying. Jumping on wagons without reason, blindly agreeing with other people when they made posts that I automatically questioned, and harping on someone's rsv vote.

None of them would have stood out individually, but when I iso'ed him there was a bunch of little things that pinged me, and no posts that made me townlean him, so I am happy with that vote for now.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

@Pooks

I'll let you know if there's important bidness in the walls, dw.

Do you have motivation/reads yet?

im townbinning a50 and you so far

Mena gets a shiny medal as soon as he catches the first bad guy

[Lukewarm]

Responding to post 196 without a quote because I hate the way you formatted that. How am I supposed to respond when your entire post is hidden inside of an older quote?

Yeah, it feels like you are not actually reading my posts, and are instead trying to make it fit to this idea you already have in your head. Almost50 had almost no influence on me dropping my scumread on Bingle.

This is why I dropped it:

what is a tried and true strategy Bingle has used as both town and scum for literally years to a pretty good result in a lobby that is at least half full of people who know Bingle pretty well.

Bingle claimed that he has done the same thing in every game he has played for years. I cannot imagine that this is a lie, because it is something that could easily be disproven by anyone willing to look back over his game history or by anyone who has played games with him in the past. I decided to move bingle back to a null read at this point, because I believed him here that it was NAI.

Almost50 chiming in was just an extra little nudge that re-accessing the situation as NAI was the right move.