Newbie 2061 | Views of Tallinn | Town wins

[Meuh]

I'm down to hammer test rn

[Lukewarm]

If you're here, I'd like to hammer test now, before I go into arguing further.

What do you mean by this? Hammer test me?

[catboi]

VOTE: catboi

If you are town, please make a post confirming that you are town. Do not hammer me. I am not scum and this is not a confession, I simply wish to clear you from my perspective so the game becomes easier. If you're scum, just vote me here and end the game.

[catboi]

This is what I mean. If I'm wrong in my read and either of you are scum, there's no point in playing further so I'd like to end things here.

[Meuh]

I'm town!

[Lukewarm]

I am town - although I think it would be funny to just hammer anyways to save us all time

But I am a team player. I know for a fact that me and Meuh are on the same team, so I can wait for her.

[catboi]

I'm shocked

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

[Meuh]

2 days left and I still don't know who I want elimed MELO is too hard I really wish I was dead rn
You're shocked, Catboi?

[Lukewarm]

@Meuh, I think we are confirmed town-teammates now

[catboi]

He put both in his bottom 3, made a case against pear, then said he would rather elim Marci over catboi.

So elim priority was pear > Marci > catboi

You put too much stock in hollow words, and not enough in actions. So he said he'd prefer to lim her - what steps did he take towards actually making that happen?

You're viewing the game in overly simplistic terms . This tends to come from a lack of experience. Scum try to obscure connections between them. That's part of the game. You're seeing all the light distancing that took place between marci and her teammate, and assuming it somehow unaligns them, when in fact the opposite is true - they expressed suspicion of each other throughout the game but avoided exerting real pressure. That's textbook distancing. But you haven't played enough to realize this, you see something as basic as me misreading VFP and assuming we must be teamed because of that, when the opposite is true - I rarely ever defend a teammate the way I did VFP.

[catboi]

2 days left and I still don't know who I want elimed MELO is too hard I really wish I was dead rn
You're shocked, Catboi?

I guess my sarcasm didn't come through.

[Lukewarm]

[Lukewarm]

Oop

did not realize it would be so big lol

[catboi]

VOTE: marcistar

I don't have time to respond in full right now, I'll be back after dinner. I'd appreciate it if you let me talk before making any decision.

[Lukewarm]

I did not hammer when I had the chance, but I think I will leave it to where you can hammer if/when you are ever convinced Meuh

VOTE: catboi

[Meuh]

He put both in his bottom 3, made a case against pear, then said he would rather elim Marci over catboi.

So elim priority was pear > Marci > catboi

You put too much stock in hollow words, and not enough in actions. So he said he'd prefer to lim her - what steps did he take towards actually making that happen?

You're viewing the game in overly simplistic terms . This tends to come from a lack of experience. Scum try to obscure connections between them. That's part of the game. You're seeing all the light distancing that took place between marci and her teammate, and assuming it somehow unaligns them, when in fact the opposite is true - they expressed suspicion of each other throughout the game but avoided exerting real pressure. That's textbook distancing. But you haven't played enough to realize this, you see something as basic as me misreading VFP and assuming we must be teamed because of that, when the opposite is true - I rarely ever defend a teammate the way I did VFP.

Actions speak louder than words is something you should always keep in mind, yep!
Luke, Marci's behaviour day 1 towards Sama and the scumread she expressed do not somehow clear the pair, it's an early day 1 read with no action taken from there until Marci picks the read back up and votes VFP in mid-day 2, I don't understand how partners lightly pressuring each other is somehow clearing, especially since as Catboi said, scum partners are TERRIFIED of being paired up and defending each other.
Basically scumteams wanna maximize the degree to which they can assure the other's safety while also maximizing the distancing, and you seem to be overvaluing the "keeping safe" part because of some light pressure with no real action, and undervaluing the distancing aspect.
scum!Marci wouldn't be going
"Ohhh I think Sama is town I don't understand why people scumread him it doesn't make sense to me "

[Meuh]

VOTE: marcistar

I don't have time to respond in full right now, I'll be back after dinner. I'd appreciate it if you let me talk before making any decision.

Will do! Not planning on hammering anytime soon

[Meuh]

@Meuh, I think we are confirmed town-teammates now

I claim masons with Lukewarm, all other PR claims are fake, N_MxMarci scumteam incoming

Spoiler:

This is a joke

[catboi]

I hope the post I made didn't come across as condescending. I'm trying to not be a jerk but this situation is incredibly frustrating which makes it hard, I've had to edit myself to hold back but I'm not always sure how I come across.

[catboi]

I also felt like catboi's case against Marci required some mental gymnastics, and even required him to leave out some of her posts.

I'm the doc, I was on Pear, now vote VFP or catboi

So pears town okai. At this point its looking more like a VFP X Lukewarm.

Here again she's trying to tie lukewarm to VFP before he flips. Remember what I said about how scum like to tie people to their partners preflip? This feels like more of that.

{snip}

this game feels so solved already should we just end phase now..?

I think the only other thing we could do before we pass the vote is for Meuh, Pear, and Marci to all voice their opinion on me vs catboi tomorrow, just in case the vote on T3 does not end the game. In that scenario, which ever one of you do die overnight will have left something to help Day 4

I feel like it would be more likely you, i feel like catbois too helpful to be scum.

I'm so stressed rn because of classes i'm sorry i haven't been here so often. i feel so useless.

But now, here, on day 3, after VFP has flipped, marci doesn't mention anything of her VFPxLukewarm read from the day before, she's content to let us hang back and eliminate T3 without much protest. She barely mentions he read from the day beore, not even to say she's changed it, and that to me is suspicious.

Right here, catboi's case completely ignores the fact that she had T3 listed as her number 1 scum read for almost all of Day 3 ( 485 / 513 / 549 / 552), and also when she said that in her mind VFP's partners were narrowed down to me/T3 before VFP flipped (771)

Catboi skipped over all of that, and tried to make is seem suspicious that she would be okay with T3 vote on Day3, because he cherry picked the single post she made where she only mentioned me+vfp and did not mention T3

Dead honest, here is how I operate: I look through people's ISOs and ctrl + F for mentions of flipped scum. that was how I pulled posts from marcistar. At that point in time, my main concern is not going over everything she said in explicit detail and making note of every post. At that point in time, I did not know who was mafia either. I was looking to solve between you and marcistar (Meuh wasn't a realistic possibility in my mind), and so I was looking for things that proved suspicious. So I zeroed in on posts that were important to me. That post in particular leapt out at me. If I gloss over the details it's not by design. But I don't think what you point out changes anything at all. In particular you seem to be giving 771 far too much credit - she explicitly says she thinks you could be partnered with VFP. The fact that she doesn't bring this up at all on day 3 is a sign she's not in a town mindset - she had no concern with solving or trying to look at the evidence, she just went with the flow and let us wagon T3 because it was necessary to win the game.

[catboi]

Meuh, do you have any questions for me? From my point of view you're the decider here but I don't actually know if you want me to say anything.

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

He put both in his bottom 3, made a case against pear, then said he would rather elim Marci over catboi.

So elim priority was pear > Marci > catboi

You put too much stock in hollow words, and not enough in actions. So he said he'd prefer to lim her - what steps did he take towards actually making that happen?

You're viewing the game in overly simplistic terms . This tends to come from a lack of experience. Scum try to obscure connections between them. That's part of the game. You're seeing all the light distancing that took place between marci and her teammate, and assuming it somehow unaligns them, when in fact the opposite is true - they expressed suspicion of each other throughout the game but avoided exerting real pressure. That's textbook distancing. But you haven't played enough to realize this, you see something as basic as me misreading VFP and assuming we must be teamed because of that, when the opposite is true - I rarely ever defend a teammate the way I did VFP.

Actions speak louder than words is something you should always keep in mind, yep!
Luke, Marci's behaviour day 1 towards Sama and the scumread she expressed do not somehow clear the pair, it's an early day 1 read with no action taken from there until Marci picks the read back up and votes VFP in mid-day 2, I don't understand how partners lightly pressuring each other is somehow clearing, especially since as Catboi said, scum partners are TERRIFIED of being paired up and defending each other.
Basically scumteams wanna maximize the degree to which they can assure the other's safety while also maximizing the distancing, and you seem to be overvaluing the "keeping safe" part because of some light pressure with no real action, and undervaluing the distancing aspect.
scum!Marci wouldn't be going
"Ohhh I think Sama is town I don't understand why people scumread him it doesn't make sense to me "

I think that you guys are misunderstanding my own position. I do not think that the Marci/Sama/VFP interactions clear her... And my actual thoughts on their interactions were a very small part of the whole path that lead me to the conclusion that catboi=scum.

Overall, I just think that the case against Catboi is stronger. To quote back Catboi

Ultimately this is all just speculationand I think there's always a scenario where anyone could have done something as scum, but it's your job to decide who is more likely to be scum

I went through, and examined catboi, built a whole case on how I could see them as a scum team - see post 1021 - and despite seeing a strong case for a catboi-VFP partner pair, I kept examining all possibilities.

My next step was to look over catboi's case against Marci - and overall, thought it was a weak case. Like it required a lot of mental gymnastics to conclude. See 1037 for an example of where I felt like his case was lacking, but over all it felt like in order to build his case against her, he had to cherry-pick his posts, and ignore posts that would have countered his case - instead of explaining how his case was correct despite those other posts.

But I did not stop there, I went into the Marci/VFP/Sama joint iso, specifically in the mind set of "I am going to build a case that they are partners." And to be clear, I did not even come to the conclusion "these interactions can't come from partners." I said, that I was not able to build a good case that they are partner. While similar on the surface, there is a distinct difference between those two conclusions.

I looked at the cases they both built against each other. I looked at the cases other players presented against both of them (like this is how I found that quote where pear called the scum team as VFP+catboi lol). And then tried to personally build my own case against both of them. And then I compared everything I saw against both of them, and came to the conclusion that Catboi's case seemed stronger/more likely.

So let's not boil my whole thought process down to "Marci scum read Sama/VFP, so they can't be partners" - because that is a gross oversimplification.

[Meuh]

I also felt like catboi's case against Marci required some mental gymnastics, and even required him to leave out some of her posts.

I'm the doc, I was on Pear, now vote VFP or catboi

So pears town okai. At this point its looking more like a VFP X Lukewarm.

Here again she's trying to tie lukewarm to VFP before he flips. Remember what I said about how scum like to tie people to their partners preflip? This feels like more of that.

{snip}

this game feels so solved already should we just end phase now..?

I think the only other thing we could do before we pass the vote is for Meuh, Pear, and Marci to all voice their opinion on me vs catboi tomorrow, just in case the vote on T3 does not end the game. In that scenario, which ever one of you do die overnight will have left something to help Day 4

I feel like it would be more likely you, i feel like catbois too helpful to be scum.

I'm so stressed rn because of classes i'm sorry i haven't been here so often. i feel so useless.

But now, here, on day 3, after VFP has flipped, marci doesn't mention anything of her VFPxLukewarm read from the day before, she's content to let us hang back and eliminate T3 without much protest. She barely mentions he read from the day beore, not even to say she's changed it, and that to me is suspicious.

Right here, catboi's case completely ignores the fact that she had T3 listed as her number 1 scum read for almost all of Day 3 ( 485 / 513 / 549 / 552), and also when she said that in her mind VFP's partners were narrowed down to me/T3 before VFP flipped (771)

Catboi skipped over all of that, and tried to make is seem suspicious that she would be okay with T3 vote on Day3, because he cherry picked the single post she made where she only mentioned me+vfp and did not mention T3

Dead honest, here is how I operate: I look through people's ISOs and ctrl + F for mentions of flipped scum. that was how I pulled posts from marcistar. At that point in time, my main concern is not going over everything she said in explicit detail and making note of every post. At that point in time, I did not know who was mafia either. I was looking to solve between you and marcistar (Meuh wasn't a realistic possibility in my mind), and so I was looking for things that proved suspicious. So I zeroed in on posts that were important to me. That post in particular leapt out at me. If I gloss over the details it's not by design. But I don't think what you point out changes anything at all. In particular you seem to be giving 771 far too much credit - she explicitly says she thinks you could be partnered with VFP. The fact that she doesn't bring this up at all on day 3 is a sign she's not in a town mindset - she had no concern with solving or trying to look at the evidence, she just went with the flow and let us wagon T3 because it was necessary to win the game.

Right, it is a bit odd that Marci didn't push Lukewarm afterwards

Meuh, do you have any questions for me? From my point of view you're the decider here but I don't actually know if you want me to say anything.

I don't even know anymore I'm in a constant state of pain and self-doubt uhh
How would you explain 1034? Why didn't Marci jump onto you there?

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

He put both in his bottom 3, made a case against pear, then said he would rather elim Marci over catboi.

So elim priority was pear > Marci > catboi

You put too much stock in hollow words, and not enough in actions. So he said he'd prefer to lim her - what steps did he take towards actually making that happen?

You're viewing the game in overly simplistic terms . This tends to come from a lack of experience. Scum try to obscure connections between them. That's part of the game. You're seeing all the light distancing that took place between marci and her teammate, and assuming it somehow unaligns them, when in fact the opposite is true - they expressed suspicion of each other throughout the game but avoided exerting real pressure. That's textbook distancing. But you haven't played enough to realize this, you see something as basic as me misreading VFP and assuming we must be teamed because of that, when the opposite is true - I rarely ever defend a teammate the way I did VFP.

Actions speak louder than words is something you should always keep in mind, yep!
Luke, Marci's behaviour day 1 towards Sama and the scumread she expressed do not somehow clear the pair, it's an early day 1 read with no action taken from there until Marci picks the read back up and votes VFP in mid-day 2, I don't understand how partners lightly pressuring each other is somehow clearing, especially since as Catboi said, scum partners are TERRIFIED of being paired up and defending each other.
Basically scumteams wanna maximize the degree to which they can assure the other's safety while also maximizing the distancing, and you seem to be overvaluing the "keeping safe" part because of some light pressure with no real action, and undervaluing the distancing aspect.
scum!Marci wouldn't be going
"Ohhh I think Sama is town I don't understand why people scumread him it doesn't make sense to me "

I think that you guys are misunderstanding my own position. I do not think that the Marci/Sama/VFP interactions clear her... And my actual thoughts on their interactions were a very small part of the whole path that lead me to the conclusion that catboi=scum.

Overall, I just think that the case against Catboi is stronger. To quote back Catboi

Ultimately this is all just speculationand I think there's always a scenario where anyone could have done something as scum, but it's your job to decide who is more likely to be scum

I went through, and examined catboi, built a whole case on how I could see them as a scum team - see post 1021 - and despite seeing a strong case for a catboi-VFP partner pair, I kept examining all possibilities.

My next step was to look over catboi's case against Marci - and overall, thought it was a weak case. Like it required a lot of mental gymnastics to conclude. See 1037 for an example of where I felt like his case was lacking, but over all it felt like in order to build his case against her, he had to cherry-pick his posts, and ignore posts that would have countered his case - instead of explaining how his case was correct despite those other posts.

But I did not stop there, I went into the Marci/VFP/Sama joint iso, specifically in the mind set of "I am going to build a case that they are partners." And to be clear, I did not even come to the conclusion "these interactions can't come from partners." I said, that I was not able to build a good case that they are partner. While similar on the surface, there is a distinct difference between those two conclusions.

I looked at the cases they both built against each other. I looked at the cases other players presented against both of them (like this is how I found that quote where pear called the scum team as VFP+catboi lol). And then tried to personally build my own case against both of them. And then I compared everything I saw against both of them, and came to the conclusion that Catboi's case seemed stronger/more likely.

So let's not boil my whole thought process down to "Marci scum read Sama/VFP, so they can't be partners" - because that is a gross oversimplification.

I mean I think building a case

against

Marci and letting me and Catboi reply to it would probably help us develop our thoughts on Marci's alignment as a group better than one defending her, even if you're not confident in the case you're making, I think it'd be better for game progression to have 2 different angles being contemplated

I don't think that's your whole case but when ~1/3 of 1025, the post where you make a case for Marci being town is arguing that point, I feel like debunking it is pretty relevant?