Mini Normal 2205: RotITGBSMoD [game over!]

[VFP]

i like the concept behind the setup though. it's adding another layer of misdirection that i think is very welcome in mafia

Yeah I second this.

[Datisi]

gunsmith in a game with three mafia doctors is just lol level trolling <3

love you dats thanks for modding. always an experience.

havent been this tilted at a setup in years.

i have another normal in the micro queue soon, you know you want to <3

[Andresvmb]

Honestly fuck this game haha the mechanics just made it unplayable from my end. I’m like really frustrated. It stopped us from focusing on play and made me not want to read at times. Frankly I’m sorry that my ability to pick out Town this game was so poor.

[Gypyx]

i'd love to see the review for this one

[Datisi]

this is the review thread, i'm gonna ask to have it released: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=86073

[DkKoba]

Re:balance
I think its hard to argue how scumsided the setup is when town avoided limming someone openly playing pro scum gets to stay alive LOL

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

the only reason you stayed alive was because we didn't think the setup could possibly be that unbalanced.

you can disagree and say the balance of the setup is fair and I don't really see the need to discuss anything if that's what you feel.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I am glad we never flipped your slot though because we never would've gotten to the "there are three mafia doctors" part and we would've killed in the tpr pool looking for the gunned killer and it would've been brutal

at least this way it played out to a quick end, a mercy killing of sorts.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

putting a gunsmith in a game with no gunned killers is farcical.

The game is not scum vs town

it is town vs mod

and the mod won

surprising noone.

[Salsabil Faria]

Well Mod! Whatever

[osuka]

it's the setup designers job to come up with some clinical, certifiable shit and it's the nrg's job to make sure it's something resembling playable

if you don't think this setup was playable (and i'm biased because i had info town didnt), that's squarely on the nrg

[Asteria]

Well at least I was right about Osuka

I'm still really surprised Clidd wasn't actually scum, sorry for pushing you so hard!

Curious why we were informed of a mafia doc if there wasn't actually a killing role? Was it just to confuse?

. The execution of Asteria was ridiculous.

I tried so hard

Thank you Datisi for modding!

[DkKoba]

Well at least I was right about Osuka

I'm still really surprised Clidd wasn't actually scum, sorry for pushing you so hard!

Curious why we were informed of a mafia doc if there wasn't actually a killing role? Was it just to confuse?

. The execution of Asteria was ridiculous.

I tried so hard

Thank you Datisi for modding!

Role cop sees doc - confirmed guilty.

[T3]

uh

well

wow

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Role cop sees doc - confirmed guilty.

that's not actually true rofl.

in the game I linked where the town was informed that a mafia doc existed.

For example we did a gambit in the previous game with the town informed of a mafia doctor where Ydrasse claimed doctor with a no kill on D1 and she managed to go all the way for the win.

Investigating a doctor =/= auto guilty in this setup.

[DkKoba]

but if someone didnt claim doc and someone is rolecoped what do u do

[Haschel Cedricson]

Hey y'all, sorry I de facto replaced out but the amount of people spamming the thread with post after post was just way too unfun.

[VFP]

So one of the issues that I feel put town at a disadvantage this game is how the standard meta seems to be claim PR day 1, or out a PR.

We had 3 PR claims day 1
1 - had 2 votes that triggered it
2 - town lying
3 - scum lying

Day 2 we had a fake guilty out another PR.

This seems to be a common act here now days and I think its because players do not get negative effect.
Robert being killed was a favour to town, but it shouldn't be something that is encouraged as town.
The reason Dragon was so obviously town was because of the VT claim, and that really shouldn't be a thing.

One of my first games coming back to this site, town had all of their PRs claimed in detail by day 2.
In another game, I was expected to claim at E3 as if it was the normal situation to do so. When I claimed Doc (at E1) it was pushed to know the full details of the role, and even then was the elimination on day 2.

Before we out right blame game mechanics its more of a question to the site meta imo.
Town should never be getting 3 PR claims day 1 regardless.

[mastina]

Hi I reviewed this game.

[mastina]

the town had essentially 0 power in a game with 3 scum doctors that were more or less informed of the setup.

The town had a nonconsecutive neapolitan--a role that could, in this game, get six innocents (albeit likely only a maximum of 3 if used N1/N3/N5). While a guilty on a mafia doctor wouldn't be a hard guilty, it would force the mafia doctor to fakeclaim a role. With it being public knowledge that there's a scum doctor, they couldn't realclaim their role and would need to fakeclaim (potentially running afoul of the other roles in the setup).

The rolecop could get a hard guilty on all of the scum. It was, for all intents and purposes, not a N2 rolecop, but a N2 cop. While getting a vanilla result wouldn't hard-clear the player, it'd be a good indicator that the player was town. It could also verify the other investigative roles in the game. Plus, it could also be used on the Neapolitan's result if the Neapolitan got a Not Vanilla Townie result. Neapolitan + Rolecop have insane synergy, with the Neapolitan checking to see if they're VT and the Rolecop able to, if they're not a VT, find out what they are. (With a Doctor result in this game being a hard-scum result.)

The gunsmith couldn't get a guilty in this game, but it wasn't meant to. Its information was meant to deliberately give the town the info that the investigatives in the game were town, especially when paired with the public information that there was a mafia doctor--after all, with there being a mafia doctor, the MAXIMUM possible number of scum guns in the game was two. If the MAXIMUM number of scum guns in the game is two...that means there's a MINIMUM of two town guns in the game. (This is basic deductive reasoning. It was publicly confirmed that at least one mafia doctor was in the game and the information about there being four guns in the game was outed D1. With one mafia guaranteed to not have a gun, it's guaranteed that town has at least two guns, with the possibility of more. For instance if the setup were mafia doctor + goon + traitor as a hypothetical, scum would have ONE gun meaning town would have THREE. That wasn't the setup, but it's an easy example of why the 'minimum' of 2 town guns and 'maximum' of 2 scum guns could indeed end up being just that, with more town guns and less scum guns. In this case all guns being town with none being scum.)

There's also the fact that mafia all being a single power role is not a mechanic unique to this game; at least one prior game featured similar, with all three scum being ungated mafia strongmen (in that game, with the town having a full rolecop that if rolecopping scum would know them to be scum).

The town had no protective power, but it did have a fair amount of investigative power. None of the investigatives could get BOTH hard innocents AND hard guilties, but most of the investigatives could get EITHER hard-innocents (the neapolitan) OR hard-guilties (the detective and the rolecop), while still giving softs of the opposite (soft-guilties for the neapolitan, soft innocents for the detective and the rolecop).

The scum needed to know about the four guns info in order to give them some protection when fakeclaiming. Knowing that there's four guns in the game meant that they'd know that if they claimed a gun role, they'd eventually end up in a counterclaim.

You have to also keep in mind that while scum knew that there were four guns in the game, they had no information on what the guns were. It gave them the general idea that they might be investigatives given the only gun roles that aren't are vigs and vengefuls and vig against doctorx3 is a little oppressive for the town, but it didn't give them a magical roadmap of knowing exactly what the town had and how to counter it. They actually lacked any counterplay at all in fact; their only weapons were fakeclaiming and the factional nightkill. They had no counterplay to a rolecop guilty on them; they had no counterplay to a detective guilty on them; they had the most possible counterplay against the Neapolitan but that still requires them to fakeclaim a role due to how a Doctor claim in this setup is a scumclaim.

[DkKoba]

i mean also i lived for 3 days for no reason lol

[mastina]

rolecop neapo gunsmith are not "strong" prs

They are when it's PUBLIC INFORMATION that scum have a MAFIA DOCTOR.

Rolecop explicitly can get a guilty on a Doctor.
Gunsmith explicitly cannot get a guilty on a Doctor.
Neapolitan can't get a hard-guilty on a Doctor, but CAN get hard-innocents. A VT result from a Neapolitan is a guaranteed innocent, guaranteed to not be scum of any kind.

The public information was public for good reason--the balance of the setup relied on players being aware of the public information and the implications of it. The implications of a Mafia Doctor are that,
-The mafia have a MAXIMUM of two guns, with the possibility that they have less than that (in this case zero but could easily be only one)
-The town, when the Informed claims, know that they have a MINIMUM of two guns, with the possibility that they have more than that (in this case four bout could easily be three)
-The gunsmith isn't meant to get hard guilties or hard innocents (the presence of a mafia doctor means AT LEAST one false innocent and AT LEAST two false guilties)
-The town's roles likely have power which interacts with the mafia doctor (in this case, the gunsmith and the rolecop)
-The town is presumably low in killstopping power itself, which must be compensated for in other ways

All of these, between the public information and the town Informed claiming their information, are things that are reasonably easy to deduce.

While they don't give the town a roadmap to victory, they should've given the town a fairly good idea of what was going on in the setup.

The town roles have a lot of synergy built into them; the scum had basically nothing going for them in terms of power.

While there are some roles that are universally going to be strong or universally going to be weak, there are some roles that, situationally, can be much stronger than normal or much weaker than normal.
In this game you got examples of both. Gunsmith, normally a much stronger role, was a much weaker role than normal, acting more akin to a vanilla cop than anything else as a role that could check for fakeclaims to some extent and verify existing claims but otherwise couldn't get alignment-indicative results.

And rolecop, normally a much weaker role, was a much much stronger role than normal, acting more akin to a cop than anything else as a role that if targeting scum would get an immediate hard-guilty.

Also Neapolitan is always a strong role, even gated to every other night. VTs are hard innocents the same as if the Neapolitan were a cop and this game had a 50% chance of targeting a VT given there were six of them. PRs and mafia are never hard guilties, but they can confirm town PRs to some extent and force scum to lock themselves into a PR claim (which in this game was extra oppressive given the town's information of knowing how many guns were in the game and knowing about the mafia doctor).

Plus, detective, while oneshot, only gets stronger and stronger the longer they wait to use their power in this setup, so long as they do get a shot off before lylo. If they target scum who have killed, that's a hard guilty. It's a tricky role to use, but at its fullest can act as a 1x cop.

Imagine the N2 rolecop gets a guilty on one scum Doctor.
Then imagine the 1x detective gets a guilty on a different scum Doctor.

Suddenly, scum have, inarguable, indefensible, hard-guilties on two of their members that are incredibly likely to leave two scum dead (revealing a significant part of the setup gimmick) and confirming at least two town with a high chance of confirming more (the detective, rolecop, and gunsmith all move to conftown upon two scum being guiltied and dead, and the Neapolitan can generate extra innocents on top of that even if not viewed as innocent themselves).

In that situation, the town has a minimum of 3 conftown with a chance of getting 5 conftown. (Gunsmith, Detective, Rolecop, Neapolitan, and Neapolitan's innocent.) 5 conftown with two scum dead.
All of this doable before D4.

It didn't pan out that way, it panned out in one of the worst possible ways for the town, but the town had a lot more tools at their disposal than you give them credit for.

[mastina]

Investigating a doctor =/= auto guilty in this setup.

Technically speaking? Technically speaking? From a purely theoretical technical point of view?

Sure, you could have it be public information that there's a mafia doctor in the game, have an Informed Gunsmith know the number of guns in the game, have a rolecop, and have a town Doctor.

But while that's technically speaking the truth, that's the sort of thing that wouldn't pass a balance review because the reviewers would point out that the town doctor is effectively a miller in a game that already is hard on the town.

So pragmatically speaking, while a doctor result from a rolecop isn't a 100% guilty, it's still a 99.99% guilty where balance of probability, just by applying simple odds, the doctor is likely to just be scum.

[DkKoba]

i also TMI that there are multiple docs bc of how i fake reacted to no extra deaths/being alive on d2.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

knowing there is a mafia doctor in the game does not mean there is no town doctor in the game.

you're balancing the game as if the town had the information that their power roles had guns and the mafia have no guns.