Umlaut's Mini Normal Review, May 2021

[Umlaut]

Are my follower result PMs okay, by the way? I'm never really sure what level of specificity to give to results for that role. (I do understand that Gunsmith is an investigative action like Cop and the action type should be indistinguishable, I'll make that explicit once the setup is nailed down and I post revised role/result PMs)

[Isis]

It would probably be better if there were another way to block a kill. Umlaut's 2-shot commuter isn't a terrible idea, or maybe just a 1-shot bulletproof. That way at least we can balance around the extra execution being likely instead of being uncertain.

I really don't like the kinds of things that happen if you add another PR to a setup like this. This is a setup with an investigative slot that is "basically sane cop" and I'm hesitant to have large numbers of PRs in addition to that slot in those setups because in the outcomes where they are specced correctly (which people will somehow some percentage of the time do even if it's a fruit vendor, a hirsute and a beloved princess alongside a scum fakeclaimed tracker) there can be a massive amount of protwn material at a relatively early point if that's stacked onto a couple of clears and the setup spec for the sane cop itself.

I'd be ok with the doctor's first two slots being jails or aliens though I guess

[Isis]

Follower PM looks fine

[Umlaut]

This seems a bit stalled out, are we approving this setup or making more changes?

Here are some updated role/result PMs. I still think my follower result PMs may be too fine-grained (I think they're only supposed to specify action

category

per https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ormal_Game) so I replaced those as well, tell me whether you prefer the old or new ones.

Spoiler: Role PMs

Town Jack-of-All-Trades

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Town Jack-of-All-Trades

, with the following abilities.

• 1-Shot Cop:
  On one night of your choice, you may investigate a player to learn whether they are
  guilty
  (Mafia-aligned) or
  innocent
  (Town-aligned).
  
• 1-Shot Gunsmith:
  On one night of your choice, you may investigate a player to learn whether they have a gun.
  (See the wiki for a list of which roles have guns.)
  
  
• 1-Shot Follower:
  On one night of your choice, you may follow a player to learn what type of action, if any, they take during the night.
  
• 1-Shot Vigilante:
  On one night of your choice, you may shoot and kill a player.

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Town Combined Neighborizer Strongman-Finder

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Town Combined Neighborizer Strongman-Finder

.

Each night you may target a player, with

both

of the following effects:

• That player will be added to a private neighborhood with you. (All players you neighborize are added to the same neighborhood.)
  
• You will be informed whether that player has the role of Strongman or not.

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Spoiler: Result PMs

Jack-of-All-Trades / Gunsmith: Positive

Your investigation determined that {PLAYER} has a gun.

Strongman-Finder: Negative

You learned that {PLAYER} is not a Strongman.

Strongman-Finder: No result

You failed to investigate {PLAYER}.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Gunsmith: Negative

Your investigation determined that {PLAYER} does not have a gun.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Gunsmith: No result

You failed to investigate {PLAYER}.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Follower: Kill

{PLAYER} carried out a killing action during the night.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Follower: Roleblock

{PLAYER} carried out a blocking action during the night.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Follower: Kill+Roleblock

{PLAYER} carried out a killing action and a blocking action during the night.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Follower: Neighborize+Strongman-Find

{PLAYER} carried out a miscellaneous action and a role investigation during the night.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Follower: Protect

{PLAYER} carried out a protective action during the night.

[Isis]

Since S_S's objection was about swing and not balance and I feel like it's bikeshedding to resolve it I'm gonna approve over the objection.

[Isis]

reviewed the pms, the new ones are better. Will wait for S_S to look at PMs then this should be done

[Something_Smart]

They're fine, as long as you make the mafia wincon public.

[Isis]

I prefer you design wincons so that there's no possibility of draws, but I'm not feeling as whiny about it as usual

[Umlaut]

Hunh, I never had anyone ask before for me to list the wincons explicitly but I suppose it makes sense if the "control half the town" wincon is more typical. I can add the following subsection to the rules post, under Game Mechanics.

Win conditions

• All Town players have the following win condition: “You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.”
  
• All Mafia players have the following win condition: “You win when the Mafia is the sole surviving faction, or when nothing can prevent this.”
  
• If the game somehow ends with neither win condition met, it will be considered a draw.

(Normally I would prefer to score the last case as "both factions lose the game," but breaking the zero-sum nature of the game can lead to really weird endgame choices [e.g. why should vig actually take their shot on the last scum in 1:1 if they lose either way?] so it's probably best to allow the draw)

[Isis]

I tend to prefer to see a faction declared the winner.

I will probably take flak for causing the setup to leak if you use these wincons exactly, since I wouldn't have complained if there was no vig creating the remote possibility of draws.

You could just use the win condition you were using before and put something in your ruleset that resolves happily ever and incidentally resolves scorched earth if you like draws. This setup has a 4p happily ever after possibility anyway.

I tend to prefer to pick a faction to be the winner when everybody dies (I usually pick scum but town would be equally fine). It's zero sum.

[Umlaut]

I can do the "control half the town" rule if you consider it essential, but since I don't normally use it that probably leaks setup information as well. Could you be more specific as to what I should be writing instead of the above? Those are the wincons I was using before, they're the same ones I had in the role PMs.

[Isis]

If the game ends or reaches Happily Ever After with neither win condition met, it will be considered a draw.

[Isis]

Would you be fine with that as a revision to your third bullet?

[Umlaut]

Yes, that's fine. (I would consider Happily Ever After to be "ending" still but it doesn't really matter)

[Isis]

Alright, everything is passed now

[Umlaut]

This game has just ended, requesting this topic be unlocked