Micro 1010: Divide and Conquer: Round 2 - Game Over!

[NorwegianboyEE]

Hopefully here in several hours

[NorwegianboyEE]

@Bingle
Since i'm assuming you're seeing Hopkirk as the likely scum in 6p. Do you currently consider him to be a possible teammate to both me and N/M or just one?

[Bingle]

I finally went over this, and I'm baffled that anyone could consider it a good case.

First of all, Hopkirk is comparing replacement catchup walls to a game with literally half the content (in the case of the shorter replacement wall) both in number of phases and in number of pages to content from the beginning of a game that's running exceptionally slowly.

Secondly, this is the super content rich post from a few days in referenced in the second half of the case:

Spoiler:

My scumreads are Whemestar, Ivyeo and Clasko.

I explained my reasoning for Whemestar earlier.

Ivyeo does not seem to be contributing much to the conversation, and what they are sending is very wishy-washy. Their messages so far have been a vote, a quick unvote, and then this one:

Whilst I do see the scummyness in Wheme's posts, I'm not sure we want to cut Day 1 discussion to right here.

They just seem like they are being overly cautious, which I feel is more likely with a scum then a town.



Clasko hardly said anything until someone questioned it, then he town-read whemestar (my biggest scum vibes) because

their argument feels cyclical and non-scripted = less chance to be W v. W

And I don't understand the logic. Why would deducing that they are not BOTH scum automatically mean that neither one is?



I am town reading Demainer using Clasko's logic. It does not seem like a scum v scum conversation, and I think that whemestar is the more likely scum of the pair.

Compared to:

Spoiler:

What other substance am I supposed to have already put into the thread?

Imo, the first order of business was figuring out which neighborhood we are going to be voting in today, so that is the conversation I have been engaging with the most so far. At this point, I think I am pretty settled on saying that we should vote from the 6p neighborhood.


At this point, I am really waiting for more content from Dunnstral, Vanderscamp, Hopkirk, and marcistar before I can really get started with my new goal of figuring out who we should vote for today.

The only read I actually have so far is a town read on Marci, because I think scum!marci would have played into my banter to attempt to pocket me, but no pocket attempt was made.

I think that the mafia put Norwee+N_M in the 3 person group because they knew it would lead to conflict, and put a lot of noise in the thread. And that strategy appears to be paying off, because they are doing exactly that. But that still leaves the question of whether you did it, and the 2 town players are falling for it, or if one of them did it as scum, and is egging on the other.

I am a little surprised at the amount of posts coming form Not_Mafia, in my expereince with him he has been a lot more sparse. In our last game he made 63 posts spread out over 30 days, and then in this game he is at 29 posts in like 6 hours, and that was also a game that had both Norwee and Not_Mafia in it...

So I am a bit suspicious that this is that "one of them did it as scum, and is egging on the other"

So of the three of you, I think it might actually be Not_Mafia... but he is such a hard person to read, by design, and it seems like his reputation has resulted in him almost having a site wide immunity from Day 1 eliminations.

So I am kind of glad we are not voting in the 3 player neighborhood today.

What other substance am I supposed to have already put into the thread?

Imo, the first order of business was figuring out which neighborhood we are going to be voting in today, so that is the conversation I have been engaging with the most so far. At this point, I think I am pretty settled on saying that we should vote from the 6p neighborhood.


At this point, I am really waiting for more content from Dunnstral, Vanderscamp, Hopkirk, and marcistar before I can really get started with my new goal of figuring out who we should vote for today.

The only read I actually have so far is a town read on Marci,

because I think scum!marci would have played into my banter to attempt to pocket me

, but no pocket attempt was made.

Marci is literally successfully pocketing you...

I think the "no pocket attempt was made" might have oversold my point, and caused you to overlook my true position in bold. I did not mean to say that just anyone would have behaved that way. Specifically, I think scum!marci would have played into the banter.

I am walking into this game on the heels of a game where Marci was scum. In that game, her first couple of posts leaned pretty heavily into bantering back and forth between the player she had played with before. And it worked, that player gave her a town read Day 1. So when I tried to put banter in place with her this game, and she met that banter with suspicion, both here and in the Neighborhood thread, it feels like the opposite of how she reacted in the last game (where she was scum).

So I am concluding that the difference was that in that game, she already knew the other person alignment, and her goal was pocketing the player she played with before, and in this game, her goal is to figure out the alignment of the player she played with before.

From literally the day the thread opened.

Hopkirk's meta case is clearly disingenuous bullshit.

[Bingle]

@Bingle
Since i'm assuming you're seeing Hopkirk as the likely scum in 6p. Do you currently consider him to be a possible teammate to both me and N/M or just one?

Both.

As I said in the Neighborhood when asked, I don't have a strong read between you and N_M, and both of you seem to be completely ignoring hoppy.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don't agree with your claim that i've ignored hopkirk.

[Bingle]

Hopkirk also feels really townie now, i don’t think they would have had this progression on Marcistar if they were scum.
So my townreads now are Hopkirk, Marcistar and Guiltylion. With highest confidence on Hopkirk and GL.
Lukewarm still i have paranoia levels on.
Dunnstral i really want to just ignore as nothing they’ve said is allignment indicative to me.
Leaving a pool of slots i might consider voting next as Vanders/Lukewarm.
I’m actually really interested in Hopkirks Lukewarm read and i’m going to take a closer look at their ISO now to see if i find myself to agree.

This is the only post you've made that even attempts to read Hopkirk, aside from casting shade about him being absent and then retracting it. Note: Hopkirks read progression on marci is basically the same as mine. Unsure -> realizes that the presented meta case doesn't match the shared meta example -> townread. It also came about 2 pages after my reasoning.

Why shouldn't I think you're possibly aligned?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Why shouldn't I think you're possibly aligned?

You can?
I'm not considering my own slot because i don't care about my own image as opposed to finding scum.
As long as you're suspecting an connection for an genuine reason that's fine by me, all i'm worried about is if you're genuine with this read or you're attempting to force the connection to secure an mislim on Hopkirk.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Bingle do you think you'd push Hopkirk as an mislim if you were scum under most normal circumstances or would you rather buddy them?

[Lukewarm]

I don't think Norwee's read progression on me makes sense to me

Spoiler:

I feel like Lukewarm is town, but i’m also hesitant to townread because i don’t know how good they are as scum.

Lukewarm how good would you rank your own scum game?

Lukewarm how good would you rank your own scum game?

Uncertain.

I have been a VT in every game that I have completed so far.

My primary experience before Mafiascum was One Night Ultimate Werewolf (and a lot of that tbh), where I thought my werewolf game was better then average amongst the people I was playing with. But that was in person with people I knew IRL. Not sure yet how well that translates to this site.

Going through ISO's with GL conf!town, soul townread on Lukewarm, and Bingle putting paranoia on Hopkirk we're left with this in a Bingle!scum world.
Bingle -> {Dunnstral}{Marcistar}{Vanderscamp}
Most emphasis on Marcistar and Vanderscamp i think.

Oh yeah, Lukewarm got scumread for some reason by multiple people and i never understood the meaning behind it.

Okay, if we are all going to start town reading Marci, can we talk about how weird it is that Norwee would push her here?

Like he has the added benefit of having seen her play, so there is no "she uses emojis, so I can't trust her" - which is 100% something people have scumread her for lol

Hopkirk also feels really townie now, i don’t think they would have had this progression on Marcistar if they were scum.
So my townreads now are Hopkirk, Marcistar and Guiltylion. With highest confidence on Hopkirk and GL.
Lukewarm still i have paranoia levels on.
Dunnstral i really want to just ignore as nothing they’ve said is allignment indicative to me.
Leaving a pool of slots i might consider voting next as Vanders/Lukewarm.
I’m actually really interested in Hopkirks Lukewarm read and i’m going to take a closer look at their ISO now to see if i find myself to agree.

Bingle and Lukewarm both have this same unpleasant vibe where they seem to be not really attempting to solve but rather observe what's happening and construct other players actions as suspicious.
To go into more detail, Lukewarms: "Can we talk about how weird Norwee's Marcistar read is".
First of all, why is he just saying "can we talk about", like he's just inviting discussion for it and wants to test the waters rather than actually argue for why it's suspicious for me to push Marcistar? Secondly, why doesn't he try to solve the game rather than just being kinda in the background and discussing? He's not being as pro-active as i'd expect of a town player.
As for Bingle, he seems to mostly be focused on this thing Hopkirk said, which i already said in the hood PT i don't believe is allignment indicative and a waste of time to focus on. Yet now he's brought it further and apparently finds it really suspicious of Hopkirk for some reason. And also it slightly pinged me when Bingle tried to shade me in 306, which coincidentally. Also has to do with my Marcistar read, like they both co-ordinated to try to push me for this.

I could see an Bingle/Lukewarm team.

I'd vote Lukewarm but N_M might immediately hammer.

tl;dr

• 173 - he thinks I am town, but hesitant because he is unfamilier with my scum game
  
• 173 - Asks me to rate my own scum game
  
• 180 - I answer
  
• 188 - Now he has a "soul townread" on me
  
• 214 - Does not understand why other people would scum read me
  
• 339 - I put some shade in his direction
  
• 352 - Now he is paranoid about my alignment
  
• 371 - Lists me in his scum team guess
  
• 374 - Wants to vote me

His progression on my slot does not make sense to me. Like he started to townread me, asked me questions, and then townread me harder, and even came to my defense, until I became mildly suspicious of something he did. And he quickly switched to me being his highest scum read / wanting to vote me out?

It just feels like his "soul townread" on me was not genuine if a small bit of suspicion from me is enough to swing his opinion of me so far.

[NorwegianboyEE]

VOTE: Lukewarm

[Lukewarm]

Can't tell if scum, or town with a bad case of OMGUS reads

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: Hopkirk

[marcistar]

i dont think lukewarms scum tbh

[marcistar]

oh hmm im not sure actually

[marcistar]

luke do u trust bingle?

[Hopkirk]

Can't tell if scum, or town with a

bad case of OMGUS

reads

VOTE: Hopkirk

can you see the irony in this when i start sussing you and Bingle/you respond with votes? you haven't acknowledged/responded to me on any of that and this feels like a chainsaw defense from Bingle right now

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk also feels really townie now, i don’t think they would have had this progression on Marcistar if they were scum.
So my townreads now are Hopkirk, Marcistar and Guiltylion. With highest confidence on Hopkirk and GL.
Lukewarm still i have paranoia levels on.
Dunnstral i really want to just ignore as nothing they’ve said is allignment indicative to me.
Leaving a pool of slots i might consider voting next as Vanders/Lukewarm.
I’m actually really interested in Hopkirks Lukewarm read and i’m going to take a closer look at their ISO now to see if i find myself to agree.

This is the only post you've made that even attempts to read Hopkirk, aside from casting shade about him being absent and then retracting it. Note: Hopkirks read progression on marci is basically the same as mine. Unsure -> realizes that the presented meta case doesn't match the shared meta example -> townread. It also came about 2 pages after my reasoning.

Why shouldn't I think you're possibly aligned?

my different reasoning you mean?

[Hopkirk]

I generally feel like "Norway has low WIM as scum" is likely to be something Hopkirk felt is true regardless of his alignment in this game (or nEE's for that matter), like I don't think he's going to just make up a complete lie about another player's scum meta, especially when naming specific players as references. however I do not see why he deflected a question about it instead of just saying where he might have seen FL comment on it, so I can sympathize with Bingle's suspicion there. If this is a premeditated push from scum!Bingle I think it would be hard for him to continue pushing it if Hopkirk had brought receipts, but at the same time I could envision scum pouncing on a townie's careless remarks about meta, so I don't know if it's strictly a town-indicative push especially since odds are not in Bingle's favor.

It's not necessarily the belief that Norwee is low WIM as scum, that I find suspicious. It's the arbitrary attempt to add credibility to the claim. TownHopkirk says "Norwee has low WIM as scum" because he thinks that. Scum Hopkirk says {Laundry List of Players} say Norwee has low WIM as scum because he gains from us believing that.

The lukewarm wagon is pretty meh, tbh. I don't see anything wrong with his play and I think Hopkirk is very obviously scummy. Feels like an attempt to distract me.

In a Hopkirk/Norwee world, the belief that

Norwee is weakscum is helpful because it makes it easier for Norwee to be townread on effort.

In a Hopkirk/N_M world he sets up a ml on Norwee for being low WIM when being in a neighborhood with N_M is likely to cause Norwee to be low WIM.

Also, I just spent 10 minutes looking for an image in my ISO from a halfremembered game to post as a joke.

the problem with this logic is that the most likely reason for me to make it as either alignment is the same
town - i thought it was funny
scum - i thought it was funny (strategic shading being comparatively ridiculously unlikely)

you've clearly started with assuming that i'm scum here given you're ignoring both the most likely motivation and the NAI nature of it to focus on a scum motivation. you're saying it *could* have come from some without drawing the link to why that means me saying it is scum & your apparent confidence makes it sound like you haven't even considered weighing up (town joking) vs (scum joking + scum positioning)

i don't think see how you believe that i make that post thinking the bolded outcomes are reasonably advanced by the post.
- 'So that Norway can tactically break his meta' - no reason to bring it up at the start
- 'setting up a norway lethal' - we're voting in the 6p + ignores the fact that Norway does effort harder as town. like this logic is notably bad.

there's no way that 'Hopkirk made the post to set up a future Norway misexile when Norway is low wim' would be more likely than it being a throwaway comment. especially when apart from anything else,

if i think town norway is low wim then why does scum!hop try and set up a lethal that only goes through if norway isn't low wim?

that especially really doesn't follow through, and you're overly focused on a conclusion that you seem to have started with

[Lukewarm]

Can't tell if scum, or town with a

bad case of OMGUS

reads

VOTE: Hopkirk

can you see the irony in this when i start sussing you and Bingle/you respond with votes? you haven't acknowledged/responded to me on any of that and this feels like a chainsaw defense from Bingle right now

What do you mean I didn't respond to you?

Spoiler:

I think that I just don't like the first half of Day 1

In response to Hopkrik:

I took my first game quite seriously - The game that Hop linked to / described in 376. Was a Newie game, with zero activity... Like Day 1 ended after 275 total posts in 10 irl days. . So I was simultaneously, a complete newb, trying-harding, and worried about the state of the thread. (Was vanilla townie)

Then I played in this game, tried to take it seriously, and realized

{snip}

So I decided that maybe I needed to take the game a bit less seriously if I was gonna enjoy this game,

-Replaced out of that game for an unrelated reason (conflict with another player), but my slot has since died, and revealed to be a Vanilla Townie.
So, I tried taking it seriously, and the response was... unpleasant. Decided I should take Day 1 less seriously if I am going to enjoy games on this site.

Then tried replacing into games to see how that felt (see hopkirk 372), and honestly kinda liked it because you get to skip Day 1. There is lots of content, and it is a lot easier to get a foot hold into the game imo.

And now I am here. Started Day 1 instead of replacing in, tried to seriously figure out the mechanical side of the game, but otherwise tried to approach it more laid back.

Just trying to have a good time

Had a whole post that started with "In response to Hopkrik"

[Hopkirk]

Can't tell if scum, or town with a

bad case of OMGUS

reads

VOTE: Hopkirk

can you see the irony in this when i start sussing you and Bingle/you respond with votes? you haven't acknowledged/responded to me on any of that and this feels like a chainsaw defense from Bingle right now

ok i may have missed 383

[Hopkirk]

that post was posted roughly the same time as your one as timestamps should show.
i skimmed this morning and forgot about that then decided to respond to stuff in reverse chronology

[Lukewarm]

luke do u trust bingle?

Honestly, it is less that I trust Bingle, and more that both Not_Mafia and Norwee have given me reasons not to trust them.

Not_Mafia seems way different then he has in any other game I have played in with him + post 250 makes no sense imo. You feel completely different this game then you did in the last.

Norwee on the other hand, it feels like maybe he tried to pocket me? Like go through his iso and search for every time he mentions me. Its agree with me, thank me, town read me, town read me harder, defend me from other people. Then I pointed out he did something suspicious, and suddenly I am his number 1 vote.

I honestly don't know which of them is the scum, but if I suspect both of them, then I guess that means Bingle is probably town?

[Hopkirk]

Ok yeah reading 383 again it doesn’t address anything I said in a direct way. I’ll put it in list form
- (376) – lacking a clear direction/scumlean early on and acting notably more confused on where you want to push
- (376) – substantially more fluff/no content posts comparative to previous games (linked to below point)
- (376) – linked to above, no clear sense of proactively. It feels like you’re hanging back a lot more
- (372) – key point here was why you didn’t comment that these were different

The only thing I can see you addressing is the second point on level of fluff/contentless posting

^ 'want it more'/level of effort they'll put in as an alignment. i'm guessing you'll give it a 0/10 if you do a slang review here too

lukewarm seems really really different to all of his other games. what's up with that luke?

^ 'want it more'/level of effort they'll put in as an alignment. i'm guessing you'll give it a 0/10 if you do a slang review here too

lukewarm seems really really different to all of his other games. what's up with that luke?

In what ways do you believe I am playing differently?

As a self diagnosis, the only thing I can think of is the buddying with Marci, but think that that has been pretty well explained - she is the reason I am in this game lol.

Spoiler:

I think that I just don't like the first half of Day 1

In response to Hopkrik:

I took my first game quite seriously - The game that Hop linked to / described in 376. Was a Newie game, with zero activity... Like Day 1 ended after 275 total posts in 10 irl days. . So I was simultaneously, a complete newb, trying-harding, and worried about the state of the thread. (Was vanilla townie)

Then I played in this game, tried to take it seriously, and realized

{snip}

So I decided that maybe I needed to take the game a bit less seriously if I was gonna enjoy this game,

-Replaced out of that game for an unrelated reason (conflict with another player), but my slot has since died, and revealed to be a Vanilla Townie.
So, I tried taking it seriously, and the response was... unpleasant. Decided I should take Day 1 less seriously if I am going to enjoy games on this site.

Then tried replacing into games to see how that felt (see hopkirk 372), and honestly kinda liked it because you get to skip Day 1. There is lots of content, and it is a lot easier to get a foot hold into the game imo.

And now I am here. Started Day 1 instead of replacing in, tried to seriously figure out the mechanical side of the game, but otherwise tried to approach it more laid back.

Just trying to have a good time

in relation to the point on you not commenting on playing differently, these feel notably inconsistent. 383 is the kind of thing i was asking for in 356, but you responded with 'i can't see any differences' instead of more reasonable explanations as you provided in 383. if 383 had been in place of 358 then some of my initial issues would have been mitigated. it feels less convincing post facto

[Hopkirk]

luke do u trust bingle?

Honestly, it is less that I trust Bingle, and more that both Not_Mafia and Norwee have given me reasons not to trust them.

Not_Mafia seems way different then he has in any other game I have played in with him + post 250 makes no sense imo. You feel completely different this game then you did in the last.

Norwee on the other hand, it feels like maybe he tried to pocket me? Like go through his iso and search for every time he mentions me. Its agree with me, thank me, town read me, town read me harder, defend me from other people. Then I pointed out he did something suspicious, and suddenly I am his number 1 vote.

I honestly don't know which of them is the scum, but if I suspect both of them, then I guess that means Bingle is probably town?

this isn't a good reason to TR Bingle or to scumread either of these people. you know one of those scumleans is wrong, so why are you assuming the other one has to be right?

- why is not_mafia doing that scum indicative? obviously given it's a VERY noticable difference then why aren't people like Bingle shouting that this is how NM plays as scum? presumably the change is NAI/based on a decision from NM to play like this. can you reconcile them making that decision with them being scum moreso than you can with them being town?
- why wouldn't you expect town!norway to be sus of you at that point? what incentive does scum!norway have, purely with an exile on you as motivation?

[Lukewarm]

Can't tell if scum, or town with a

bad case of OMGUS

reads

VOTE: Hopkirk

can you see the irony in this when i start sussing you and Bingle/you respond with votes? you haven't acknowledged/responded to me on any of that and this feels like a chainsaw defense from Bingle right now

I did not suspect you immediately after you made a case against me. I responded to your case as best as I could. I took the suspicion in good faith, and tried to imagine why I would feel different in this game compared to my other completed game where I started Day 1. I did not even go back and look at that game, I just assumed you had a decent reason to think they were different.

Then Bingle came in with 402 and when he showed the post that you were refering to as my post with reads / reasoning, and I realized that your case was in bad faith.

Like, in that game, I had 4 posts by the end of the 3rd day. In this game I had 41 by the end of the 3rd day. So if you are claiming that that game I was doing more to move the game forward, I no longer think you are making your case in good faith.