Micro 1010: Divide and Conquer: Round 2 - Game Over!

[GuiltyLion]

oh FML that wasn't pagetop, man the rust is so real

[Not_Mafia]

Loser

[Not_Mafia]

here it is for your viewing pleasure N_M:

Whatever, just get someone to E-1

[Lukewarm]

here it is for your viewing pleasure N_M:

Whatever, just get someone to E-1

Such leadership from our Confirmed Townie

[Lukewarm]

Overall, I like a lot of your reasoning about Vanderscamp, but this one really give me pause.

I also think Bingle's openwolf 477 may have been meant to scare us away from a Vander wagon.

Because, like when he made 477, You+Marci were alraedy voting for Vanderscamp, and I was so obviously trapped in his pocket, he should have know there was a chance I would follow his lead there. That puts Vanders at e-2, which is often equivalent to e-1 in a game with Not_Mafia. So, if I had followed through with his suggestion, the he would have immediately been put into the position of needing in to ante up or back out of his "I will vote Vanderscamp if we then vote Hopkirk"

For 477 to save Vanderscamp, Bingle would have had to assume I was going to climb out of his pocket at that moment. But from the nice and cozy comfort of his pocket, I saw it was "extreme confidence in his scum read" instead of "openwolfing." So 477 came awfully close to either getting Vanders voted out (GL, Marci, Me, Bingle, Not_Mafia is an Elimination) or essentially a scum partner claim by forcing Bingle to backtrack 477 the moment I follow him and vote Vanders.

[Lukewarm]

I want Guilty Lion still

VOTE: Lukewarm

Why do you think it is Guilty Lion?

(Also, sorry Norwee )

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: vanderscamp

[Hopkirk]

Vanders/Luke>GL slightly>Dunn>Marc but i might reread

[Lukewarm]

Vanders/Luke>GL slightly>Dunn>Marc but i might reread

What moved Dunn so much further down this list then when you posted in the Neighborhood?

At the start of the night Dunn was your second highest suspicion. At the start of the day Dunn is your second lowest suspicion.

[Not_Mafia]

All the cool kids are in the neighbourhood and I'm left out

[Vanderscamp]

like that was a self-hammer since you made the vote knowing that NM was going to vote you. if this flips town then i'm pissed and you've lost the respect i had for you as a player before this. the amount of self-hammers i see from town ruining a good half of my games is pissing me off.

I think given scum bingle this was a very towny comment from hopkirk btw

[Vanderscamp]

I also think given scum bingle the stuff lukewarm was saying about flipping bingle to confirm the validity of his reads if he's town is towny

[Vanderscamp]

I really don't think Lukewarm is likely, all the twilight posting would be hard to do in real time knowing Bingle scumflip was imminent, including posts in our hood between thread lock and flip.

I posted this in our hood and Vander ignored it in favor of not posting at all over the entirety of the night phase, here it is for your viewing pleasure N_M:

I think Vanders' progression on Bingle is quite awkward

in 230 he votes marcistar, despite the fact that he claimed to believe we should eliminate in the 3p. (I still maintain that despite posting a handful of times about eliminating in the 3p, Vanderscamp did not seem to actually care about eliminating in the 3p, especially when most players had suggested that we shouldn't).

He then quotes Bingle posts from prior to 230, in his 231 and 233 he quotes Bingle's 212 and 219, then concludes in 235 that he thinks Bingle is scummier than N_M and that he thinks nEE is town. If that's the case, given that he thinks 3p was a better odds to hit scum and he's townreading one of the 3p, why was he voting elsewhere? I called this out in my post 236 and got a very short 238 in reply, which I didn't sense Vanders genuinely believed given that he spent more time discussing Bingle than marcistar.

Then the progression from question -> I don't like your answer -> vote (in 255, 262, 263) feels like where the decision to bus comes in. Despite scumreading and voting (!) Bingle, Vanders claims he got "nothing" out of Bingle v Hopkirk in 329 - I feel a townie who was voting Bingle as their primary SR there would have had more to say.

I also still agree with my own 469 and I don't think Vanderscamp understood my point nor addressed it in a satisfying way. My point wasn't that he wasn't aware of the pools once he posted, my point was "I was gonna say it's not S-S until I remembered [emphasis mine] it couldn't be" betrays a lack of critical thought or care about the pools when analyzing interactions. I haven't once forgotten who was in which pool this game, because it's centrally important to determining who scum is. Vanders post implied that he did, which I find hard to believe coming from town.

I also think Bingle's openwolf 477 may have been meant to scare us away from a Vander wagon.

I'm not reading the neighbourhood chat, sorry.

I don't think it's a thing that you really believe this though?...

I voted Marci because my stance, which I've mentioned several times already, is that it's better to kill your top scum read rather than vote into a specific pool, but it is definitely wrong to want to not kill into the small pool for the sake of it, which I brought up basically every time someone indicated that that's what they wanted to do. I've also mentioned several times that in the other iteration of this, my top scum (correctly) was actually in the big pool and I voted there.

I also don't know how else I can respond to 469?
I did display "critical thought and care" about pool interactions because I saw and interaction and then I did think about whether it was possible and then came to the conclusion that it wasn't.
Maybe me saying I forgot implied I was sitting on that read for like an hour or something? What happened was that I looked at an interaction, had a conclusion about it, instantly thought more about it, and then realized it wasn't a thing. A pretty good example of something similar is when you're catching up with the thread after a flip, you get a read on something a dead player said, and then you realize they're dead.

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: guiltylion

You said last time you had to concede some of the points you were making that I responded to, which points were you actually conceding?
Because this is basically all stuff I've already responded to.
I can sort of believe that you can have trouble with my thing about the s/s thing since I may have phrased it pretty badly, but I don't believe that you can be reading my posts and then making the argument that me voting Marci is scummy in good faith, especially since you asked me the relevant question of who I scumread more between Marci and bingle.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm a million percent not buying that you don't believe that town!me could see you as scummy here. You are only pushing me because I'm pushing you and you feel forced to 1v1 me to discredit me.

The point of 469 is that it should not have ever crossed your mind that marci/Luke COULD have been S-S in the first place

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not reading the neighbourhood chat, sorry.

shouldn't you be concerned about what scum might be posting in there?

[Vanderscamp]

Overall, I like a lot of your reasoning about Vanderscamp, but this one really give me pause.

I also think Bingle's openwolf 477 may have been meant to scare us away from a Vander wagon.

Because, like when he made 477, You+Marci were alraedy voting for Vanderscamp, and I was so obviously trapped in his pocket, he should have know there was a chance I would follow his lead there. That puts Vanders at e-2, which is often equivalent to e-1 in a game with Not_Mafia. So, if I had followed through with his suggestion, the he would have immediately been put into the position of needing in to ante up or back out of his "I will vote Vanderscamp if we then vote Hopkirk"

For 477 to save Vanderscamp, Bingle would have had to assume I was going to climb out of his pocket at that moment. But from the nice and cozy comfort of his pocket, I saw it was "extreme confidence in his scum read" instead of "openwolfing." So 477 came awfully close to either getting Vanders voted out (GL, Marci, Me, Bingle, Not_Mafia is an Elimination) or essentially a scum partner claim by forcing Bingle to backtrack 477 the moment I follow him and vote Vanders.

This is a good point, if anyone else had voted me at the point where bingle had made the comment, if we're scum partners he is essentially outing that fact since he wouldn't be able to vote me there.

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: vanderscamp

Why?

[Vanderscamp]

I'm a million percent not buying that you don't believe that town!me could see you as scummy here. You are only pushing me because I'm pushing you and you feel forced to 1v1 me to discredit me.

The point of 469 is that it should not have ever crossed your mind that marci/Luke COULD have been S-S in the first place

I thought I should be the most obvious town in the big pool coming into the day today, that obviously isn't true since you and hopkirk are both voting me.

I specifically don't like you thinking the Marci vote is suspicious, I think that is much scummier than your s-s thing.

Why do you think it's scummy that I voted Marci? Because your reasons are all things that are not only wrong, but I explained why they're wrong both at the start of the game and when you made this case on me last time.
I find it hard to believe that you can actually make this case against me in good faith because of this.

You said earlier that you were conceding some of the points you made against me.
Which points were those?

[GuiltyLion]

Overall, I like a lot of your reasoning about Vanderscamp, but this one really give me pause.

I also think Bingle's openwolf 477 may have been meant to scare us away from a Vander wagon.

Because, like when he made 477, You+Marci were alraedy voting for Vanderscamp, and I was so obviously trapped in his pocket, he should have know there was a chance I would follow his lead there. That puts Vanders at e-2, which is often equivalent to e-1 in a game with Not_Mafia. So, if I had followed through with his suggestion, the he would have immediately been put into the position of needing in to ante up or back out of his "I will vote Vanderscamp if we then vote Hopkirk"

For 477 to save Vanderscamp, Bingle would have had to assume I was going to climb out of his pocket at that moment. But from the nice and cozy comfort of his pocket, I saw it was "extreme confidence in his scum read" instead of "openwolfing." So 477 came awfully close to either getting Vanders voted out (GL, Marci, Me, Bingle, Not_Mafia is an Elimination) or essentially a scum partner claim by forcing Bingle to backtrack 477 the moment I follow him and vote Vanders.

I do feel this. 477 would have to be a pretty brave bluff, but I don't want to say it is entirely clearing because if the team was Bingle-Vanderscamp they were in very hot water by that point anyways.

Lukewarm, who is your pick for scum here?

[Vanderscamp]

I'm not reading the neighbourhood chat, sorry.

shouldn't you be concerned about what scum might be posting in there?

No?...

I didn't read the other chat last game at all either.

[GuiltyLion]

I normally don't like to do protracted 1v1s so don't expect me to engage with every point but I'll give you a bit of an olive branch here

I thought I should be the most obvious town in the big pool coming into the day today, that obviously isn't true since you and hopkirk are both voting me.

I specifically don't like you thinking the Marci vote is suspicious, I think that is much scummier than your s-s thing.

Why do you think it's scummy that I voted Marci? Because your reasons are all things that are not only wrong, but I explained why they're wrong both at the start of the game and when you made this case on me last time.
I find it hard to believe that you can actually make this case against me in good faith because of this.

You said earlier that you were conceding some of the points you made against me.
Which points were those?

a) first off, the idea that you would be most obvious town is frankly absurd to me. In what ways do you think you should be cleared after D1? Serious question, I'm not trying to be snarky why should a neutral observer see you as locktown?

b) It's not scummy that you voted Marci, what I am saying is scummy is how toothless it was. All you said via why she was scum was calling her awkward, you spent far more of your words on Bingle than her, and you switched to Bingle almost immediately. To me, your Marci vote looks more like a floaty convenient vote rather than one you genuinely believed in,

that

is why I see it as scummy.

c) It's mainly 495, it's fair of you to say that we did actually have a decent sized Bingle wagon and personally all of your posts feel vaguely robotic to me so I may be underrating the seriousness of your belief in eliminating in the 3p over the 6p. Especially given that you did also say you weren't opposed to eliminating in the 6p and were more arguing from the point of voting our top scumreads.

as for your most recent post, if you are town you should absolutely be reading the hood. How otherwise are we to discern between scum making excuses for not posting there? Can you really say you're giving this game your best effort if you're categorically ignoring information that may help you sort people?

[Vanderscamp]

I normally don't like to do protracted 1v1s so don't expect me to engage with every point but I'll give you a bit of an olive branch here

I thought I should be the most obvious town in the big pool coming into the day today, that obviously isn't true since you and hopkirk are both voting me.

I specifically don't like you thinking the Marci vote is suspicious, I think that is much scummier than your s-s thing.

Why do you think it's scummy that I voted Marci? Because your reasons are all things that are not only wrong, but I explained why they're wrong both at the start of the game and when you made this case on me last time.
I find it hard to believe that you can actually make this case against me in good faith because of this.

You said earlier that you were conceding some of the points you made against me.
Which points were those?

a) first off, the idea that you would be most obvious town is frankly absurd to me. In what ways do you think you should be cleared after D1? Serious question, I'm not trying to be snarky why should a neutral observer see you as locktown?

b) It's not scummy that you voted Marci, what I am saying is scummy is how toothless it was. All you said via why she was scum was calling her awkward, you spent far more of your words on Bingle than her, and you switched to Bingle almost immediately. To me, your Marci vote looks more like a floaty convenient vote rather than one you genuinely believed in,

that

is why I see it as scummy.

c) It's mainly 495, it's fair of you to say that we did actually have a decent sized Bingle wagon and personally all of your posts feel vaguely robotic to me so I may be underrating the seriousness of your belief in eliminating in the 3p over the 6p. Especially given that you did also say you weren't opposed to eliminating in the 6p and were more arguing from the point of voting our top scumreads.

as for your most recent post, if you are town you should absolutely be reading the hood. How otherwise are we to discern between scum making excuses for not posting there? Can you really say you're giving this game your best effort if you're categorically ignoring information that may help you sort people?

A) I don't think the bingle kill would have happened without me.
I was continually calling out the stuff he was saying that made no sense, and I was essentially the only person who was defending killing into the 3p pool, I was speaking up to argue that killing there is not a bad idea when people were suggesting it was. Not possible for you to know since you've never played with me but I generally avoid bussing, I've commented on this on other games on this site.

B) I thought they were both fairly scummy and iirc didn't feel super strongly about either. When I thought bingle became more scummy I voted him. If your reasoning was that the vote was toothless, why were you talking about the different pools and which of them I was voting into?

C) I don't care if scum posts there or not, there's no reason to post anything of value in that hood that we can't post in the thread instead.

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm, who is your pick for scum here?

I am going to have to ask for a raincheck. I have a big test that I am studying for that I have to take in the morning. As of tomorrow afternoon, I will be free from this class, and will have time to do a deep dive.

Just scanning the things that are back and forth between you and Vanderscamp, I will say that I don't think he is my number 1 choice. I think his stance on where we should have voted Day 1 was consistent (not the actual person, but like how to approach the set up) and also consistent with the first game where he argued against the "we should only consider a vote in the 6p neighborhood," with the conclusion we should always just vote the most scummy person regardless of neighborhood. Even in the first game his first vote was a player from the 6p neighborhood.

I don't think he has ever said (in either game) that we should always vote in the 3 person pool.

[Lukewarm]

Marci, what are you thinking rn?