Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[Menalque]

I think that towns are stronk right now but also that it's partly because of meddling by things like the NRG. I'm considering writing something longer form on this in mafdisc forum, but the basic thesis I have is that by pushing setups towards being more townsided to stop scum sweeping too much, the general moderation made being scum really unfun for many players because it feels so much harder. That's then led to a lot of people not liking or actively hating scum, which in turns means they're not motivated when they roll scum. This (1) makes them much easier to distinguish when town and (2) means that they're often a lot easier to lim as scum because they won't fight back as hard. This effect then snowballs and makes playing scum even less fun which in turn makes people like rolling it even less and etc etc. Without active moderation interference by making things significantly harder for towns/more fun for scum, this trend is likely to continue. But it's also why in some games (not this one, to be very clear) a competent scum team will stomp, because towns aren't used to having to play teams of engaged/motivated scum.

I’d love to hear any feedback on this btw, agree or disagree and whether you think it would be worth trying to turn into something longer/something to be put into mafdisc

[Infinity 324]

I haven't thought about it much before but I think it's very possible and a useful discussion to have

[borkjerfkin]

I think that towns are stronk right now but also that it's partly because of meddling by things like the NRG. I'm considering writing something longer form on this in mafdisc forum, but the basic thesis I have is that by pushing setups towards being more townsided to stop scum sweeping too much, the general moderation made being scum really unfun for many players because it feels so much harder. That's then led to a lot of people not liking or actively hating scum, which in turns means they're not motivated when they roll scum. This (1) makes them much easier to distinguish when town and (2) means that they're often a lot easier to lim as scum because they won't fight back as hard. This effect then snowballs and makes playing scum even less fun which in turn makes people like rolling it even less and etc etc. Without active moderation interference by making things significantly harder for towns/more fun for scum, this trend is likely to continue. But it's also why in some games (not this one, to be very clear) a competent scum team will stomp, because towns aren't used to having to play teams of engaged/motivated scum.

I’d love to hear any feedback on this btw, agree or disagree and whether you think it would be worth trying to turn into something longer/something to be put into mafdisc

my first reaction is agree

[Prism]

I think town is stronger right now for meta reasons evolving from the demonstrated strength of hyperposting, and how innately difficult it is to fake as scum, rather than for mechanical reasons. I think dialing back will help scum out but the source of dismay doesn't tend to be mechanical. I get that there is an argument that mechanically stacking the deck has led to the demotivation. I don't really agree.

[Prism]

I'm a lot more interested in limits on an individual's # of posts in a day. I'm less interested in the shared page cap.

[Prism]

(I also think this game serves a good example; scum struggled with motivation throughout despite having very experienced players. There was zero fear of mechanical autoloss, stacked decks, etc. Some of this can be attributed to lack of daytalk, some of it could hypothetically be this residual dismay after being wronged by the NRG, but a lot more of it came from the sheer amount of emotional energy required to keep up with the town players in the game, who would dedicate themselves wholeheartedly to real-time interactions for hours at a time.)

[skitter30]

I think town is stronger right now for meta reasons evolving from the demonstrated strength of hyperposting, and how innately difficult it is to fake as scum, rather than for mechanical reasons. I think dialing back will help scum out but the source of dismay doesn't tend to be mechanical. I get that there is an argument that mechanically stacking the deck has led to the demotivation. I don't really agree.

i think this pov has a lot of merit

[Infinity 324]

Yeah maybe other people play a lot of normals but I don't and I still experience towns having more accurate reads.

[skitter30]

I think town is stronger right now for meta reasons evolving from the demonstrated strength of hyperposting, and how innately difficult it is to fake as scum, rather than for mechanical reasons. I think dialing back will help scum out but the source of dismay doesn't tend to be mechanical. I get that there is an argument that mechanically stacking the deck has led to the demotivation. I don't really agree.

i think this pov has a lot of merit

Like as town i will happily sit and bicker for hours but i definitely run out of steam as scum and cant keep it going as long. Its exhausting

[petapan]

people have always been bad at scum but i think there's an ebb and flow to these things. looking at topics from 2016-2017 people were bemoaning how bad towns were. i wasn't around then but i assume hyperposting meta was still in place, looking at page counts. did people just get better at playing town? eh. not sure if that's the case.

i think nowadays a lot of people defeat themselves in their heads before the game even starts when they draw scum, out of lack of confidence and/or lack of desire to play the alignment, and that negative mindset leads to poor play which leads to a less exciting and dynamic game

[fferyllt]

I'm a lot more interested in limits on an individual's # of posts in a day. I'm less interested in the shared page cap.

I'm not sure which is the better approach. It seems to mostly fall on town players to police misuse of the shared page cap and I doubt that happens often. During my time on MS, policy eliminations/vig shots have never been much of a thing.

[unwnd]

In laymen's terms--More people just need to get over the idea that being scum means that you're not welcome. Town takes the exhaustive process and it becomes pretty much what skitter described with 'not being able to keep up.' This is a strategy that is very hard to break because the extended deadline was never to be used like punching in/out for work every day. You are not required to reach deadline before you decide to lim someone. That was always there so you didn't spend 5-6 hours in one thread just constantly dumping whatever. I would make a very minor note that I think the COVID Pandemic is proobably giving people more freetime because we're all inside but it's not the main point.

Mafia is inherently social. I think a lot of people who love being town end up drawing scum roles and believe 'oh, I can't enjoy this game with my friends.' I think meta is a misnomer in that sense, because it's not really meta at this point. You're just designating your own mindset to believe that the people who are town are having more fun than you. I personally don't feel this way, but that's the impression I get as of late.

[Infinity 324]

Personally I'm just constantly scared as hell as scum and even when I'm able to channel that scaredness into geniune-sounding emotion it burns me out eventually. I always check the threads of my towngames before my scumgames.

[unwnd]

And you know what? I have complaints for the other end too. Hyperposting wins are hollow victories in my opinion. It's not really rewarding. Good job for scum winning. Nothing taken from MT who had great reads on rep in or those who tried, but I swear some people just treat the thread like a fucking party or purely social gathering. I really do not like posting a lot but I just go 'well, everyone else is doing it.' I feel like my posts become less valuable and there's a lot of necessity lost from doing it. I get to the point sometimes where I don't even remember my reads and 100-200 posts I made were quantitive filler. Or worse, I'm just..reacting to stuff. No thought put into it send post. Town wins out though because they just outgarbage the scum or catch the vibe with another. Really hard to deal with when a dreaded soulread comes into play or two town have some kind of intimate moment.

How does scum fight that though? Open question.

[fferyllt]

I try to have "office hours" in my games and intentional down times. I think the biggest help in not contributing to thread bloat is just not feeling like I need to respond to EVERYTHING.

In terms of how scum fight that, I think it comes down to a couple things. Probably most important is to play the social game well. And maintaining a town activity meta that works when scum probably helps. (I wouldn't know...:/)

[unwnd]

Lingering thoughts/ideas are

- Fake your own intimate moment with your partner. Choose when to come in and observe town's own morale. I think scum get really defeated when it seems like town is syncing and it feels impossible. I don't have a definitive answer for this one.
- Play more actively null or try to practice restraint. I think too many people compromise. I'm a complete fucking hypocrite cause I do it too. It is again 'well, everyone is doing it.' Then I'm ending up just playing scum the way where it's almost like I'm trying to spitefully out-post town. Regardless, this one is harder for hyperposting town because I'm sure they get scared someone will think they're not posting = scum. Happens all the time but I think Hoopla said it that Town/Scum are two sides of the same coin. I legitimately think you can take away from both of them. They don't have to be different mindsets.
- Filter out conversation and try to meet in the middle with votes. I've always thought who you vote for is usually what matters. Posting and discussion usually just leads up to it.

[Prism]

I try to have "office hours" in my games and intentional down times. I think the biggest help in not contributing to thread bloat is just not feeling like I need to respond to EVERYTHING.

In terms of how scum fight that, I think it comes down to a couple things. Probably most important is to play the social game well. And maintaining a town activity meta that works when scum probably helps. (I wouldn't know...:/)

Take advantage of blatant town mistakes.

(Here to here) Use realtime interactions to play out an evolution planned a week in advance using observations made on Day 1.

Or invent a narrative/progression on the fly based off what you're seeing with an endgoal in mind.

Leverage realtime interactions in order to focus attention in places advantageous to yourself and divert from problematic areas.

Intentionally and immediately demoralize players the second they show up to shut them out of the game...and more, if you feel it's not in poor taste.

Combine this with larger narrative arcs over time making use of your town meta to paint a convincing emotional picture. I'm not going to link you that one, but the bit about you was only a tiny part of the much larger picture.

[Prism]

I realize actually doing those things is easier said than done but players have a lot more leeway as scum than they realize, don't understand when something is free, and have way too little confidence (justified and unjustified) in their fundamentals.

For hyperposters specifically, anyone who has played any amount of chat mafia has the ability to sit there for an hour and pour their heart out, and if players aren't going to slow down and think things through deeply and independently (the counter to my suggestions) they can and should be punished for it by funneling them towards deadends and abusing attention space & morale to maximum effect.

[fferyllt]

That game and your notes are a master class, Prism.

Goals and aspirations.

[unwnd]

I think people should learn to scrap more if they're not trying to produce the same effects. Literally at this point just try something and if it doesn't work out oh well. I feel scum aren't like, getting experience over time. I'm scum and I'm gonna probably not have fun boo hoo then they take nothing out of it until they get town.

The site still has decent retention rate but I think at this point mafia has become less of a perilous battle stretched to mental limit and more like a thing you do because it's fun and your friends are there too. That's perfectly fine and I get when people don't want that anymore, but I dunno. Putting your all into something can be fun too. I don't think it has to be entirely one way or the other

[Prism]

Sorry, I know I link too much from Iceland on account of its recency and the convenience of the annotations, fundamentally it was overkill in a Newbie game as opposed to something more stacked/experienced, but the majority of those will work on virtually any table in MS, ex. The Thaw was very stacked and while Scumsman was probably going to end in a loss there were interesting moments to it. Attention space comes into play for hydras as well.

[Infinity 324]

Yes good points

Putting your all into something and losing and still enjoying it is something that requires a lot of mental fortitude though, and it's not something I'm generally able to do. I came pretty close in this game though, which I consider a success at least.

[Infinity 324]

I tend to view townplay as a fun hang out with your friends type game and scum play as a competitive thing more often than not. I feel like the higher agency in scumplay lends itself to that more. Unfortunately you don't get to chose when to play which.

[Prism]

I guess I'm biased since I put up a very strict wall between mafia and my broader social life for anyone not named petapan. It makes it a lot easier to focus only on winning the game and playing the best I can.

[Prism]

One day petapan and I will marry purely for tax purposes and so I can inherit all his shit when he dies. At that point we will be the ultimate married mafia powercouple.