Micro 1010: Divide and Conquer: Round 2 - Game Over!

[GuiltyLion]

for most of the game you have been trying to phrase it as it not making sense that I would vote into the 6p pool at all, given what I said about voting into the 3p pool

That's not really true, maybe I happened to phrase it that way at the start of my case today on D2 but it should be clear from my question on D1 that I've suspected this on the basis of me not understanding why your vote didn't align with the reads you gave. The fact that you had indicated that you disagreed with the thread notion of limming 6p first is just the cherry on top

[GuiltyLion]

There's a difference between saying my posts have sounded scummy or whatever, which would be a wrong read but would at least be a reasonable perspective, and saying shit like me not posting in the neighborhood chat being scummy and the 6p pool vote being scummy when these are things that are obviously objectively wrong from glancing at the other game of this roleset that I played AND have been explained to you why they're wrong many times.

I think you're scummy because I don't think you believe your reasons for pushing on me, which has nothing to do with how I think you should be reading anyone else in the game.

All you've discussed in your defense is why you think my reasons for scumreading you are wrong. It's quite a leap to then argue that this means I must not believe in them. Do you have any reasons for thinking I don't

believe

in my scumread on you, even if you (obviously) disagree with points I'm making? Which points specifically do you think a town!me would not believe in?

[GuiltyLion]

I think scum are in general more likely to give more genuine sounding reads on town they know are town, and less genuine sounding reads on scum they know are not town, and this is pretty obviously not a genuine read.
Last game I'm pretty sure both scum never pushed each other and gave fairly weak reasons to justify that.

We agree the read on Dunn isn't genuine but I think if scum!Bingle is making a disingenuous read on scum!Dunn he's going to be more careful about how blatantly disingenuous it would look on his flip. We actually have this is evidence of how Bingle thinks, because that's what he was trying to argue a scum!Dunn paired with scum!N_M

wasn't trying to do

.

Also, last game scum autolost on D1, so that seems to indicate they played the game poorly, don't ya think?

[GuiltyLion]

How is bingle diffusing the wagon of someone in the 6p pool an indication of being town?

Same philosophy as in my other replies to you here -

given that scum know scum!Bingle in this game is more likely than the average scum player in an average setup to be eliminated

, I believe it's less likely he'd stick his neck out for a buddy in an obvious way unless he absolutely needed to. Maybe Lukewarm was getting close to that point, which is why I'm not completely clearing him as town, but Marci wasn't. Combined with independent reasons to TR each player, it makes the altogether odds that scum!Bingle is paired with either of them fairly low IMO, in my experience scum will often position themselves against early popular wagons to try to give them things to argue about and feel like they're sorting - you can get a fair amount of D1 towncred from defending actual town. As I also said earlier, it looks more to me like a pocket on Lukewarm.

[GuiltyLion]

but for most of the game you have been trying to phrase it as it not making sense that I would vote into the 6p pool at all

In fact, this is actually a pretty significant misrep the more I think about it and I have the receipts:

do you think marcistar is scummier than bingle?

Here's what I posted when I first felt it was suspicious that Vander gave a bunch of reasons for suspecting Bingle but voted marcistar instead. It's clear that I find it weird that he's voting marcistar

as opposed to Bingle

, said nothing about the pools.

Here's where I start really reiterating a push/case on him:

The strongest/most meaningful content he's posted has been about Bingle, his questionable reasoning about both the Dunn & Norway slots, but it's rather easy for me to imagine that content being either a) scum!Vanders jumping on a townie making illogical/reachy assertions without justifying why those assertions indicate

scum

alignment or b) scum!Vanders distancing/bussing a buddy!Bingle. He's also just holistically been pretty inactive this game, he hasn't bothered to fight harder against the thread consensus to eliminate in the 6p despite his strongest SR being Bingle, and he hasn't taken a lead or a stake in substantially building nor defusing any wagons.

Note that I've said nothing about Vander's attitude about the pools prior to this post. Now look at what I am saying - what's weird is that "he hasn't bothered to fight harder against thread consensus to eliminate in the 6p

DESPITE HIS STRONGEST SR BEING BINGLE

". Again, referring to the fact that his posts are all centered around Bingle being scummy to him, having reasons to suspect Bingle.

But look at how Vander twists the argument in his reply to defend himself:

It's also ridiculous to say that

I haven't pushed harder against killing into the big pool

, I have probably said more than any other player in this game about which pool is better to kill into

He drops the most important part of my point ("Bingle is your strongest SR, why were you a)voting Marcistar and b)not trying to get people to lim Bingle instead") and shifts the entire discussion to instead being about how he argued for limming in the 3p in the general sense. It's a misrep to make my argument different than what it was.

On D2, I did phrase it poorly:

in 230 he votes marcistar, despite the fact that he claimed to believe we should eliminate in the 3p. (I still maintain that despite posting a handful of times about eliminating in the 3p, Vanderscamp did not seem to actually care about eliminating in the 3p, especially when most players had suggested that we shouldn't).

I have a bit of mea cupla on this one, it does read less focused on the oddness of his votes/play regarding who he wants to eliminate, and more about the general 6p/3p discussion. But even here, you can see what I'm trying to say despite the poor phrasing - I'm saying he "did not seem to care about eliminating in the 3p" because of my prior memory that he gave reasons to scumread Bingle yet voted marcistar, and then when he did switch to Bingle he disappeared for quite a long time IRL and came back and barely pushed it (SEE 329).

But now suddenly, this amounts to Vander saying that "most of the game" I've been phrasing it as not making sense about voting in 6p? Nuh uh. What didn't make sense was voting marcistar, specifically after giving reasons why your vote should have been on Bingle. The secondary point is that you can't use the argument about us limming in the 6p as a defense, because you already have a well-documented belief that voting in the 3p was fine.

[GuiltyLion]

If y'all wanna vote me out today, fine. But bury this scum with extreme prejudice after my flip, there is no universe where Vanderscamp gets to live through the F3, especially once you all can reread all my posts against him knowing my alignment.

[Hopkirk]

i'll reread today. if i don't then free to call me 'Hopdork' or equally mean names.

[GuiltyLion]

Firstly I don't think at all the the "only possible scum" are you and Dunn.

also on this,

I'm not seeing why town!Vander would feel the need to disagree with this. In his own words:

I read Marci as town from the meta about which pool she would be in despite reading her content as scummy.
I think I like lukewarm now,

like that was a self-hammer since you made the vote knowing that NM was going to vote you. if this flips town then i'm pissed and you've lost the respect i had for you as a player before this. the amount of self-hammers i see from town ruining a good half of my games is pissing me off.

I think given scum bingle this was a very towny comment from hopkirk btw

I also think given scum bingle the stuff lukewarm was saying about flipping bingle to confirm the validity of his reads if he's town is towny

[GuiltyLion]

you can't just townread people when it's convenient to townread them but then say you're not looking at the other players by POE. If they're town they're town and you should be willing to put your foot in the ground there. I would say I'm literally never voting Hopkirk or marcistar this game at this point, doesn't feel like you'd commit to the same?

[Lukewarm]

Coming into Day 2, I was leaning Dunn with Guilty Lion as a second place guess.

Spoiler:

I have spoken at length on why I do not think it was Marci. And I don't think that Bingle Town reads GL/Dunn/Me/Marci and then says "lets vote either Vadnerscamp or Hopkirk today" if either of Vanderscamp or Hopkirk at his partner in a set up where an elim on his parter is an auto-lose

I think that maybe Guilty Lion is slightly ahead of Dunn now.

Guilty Lion

Spoiler:

To me, it feels like his scum reads are coming from an angle of looking for a reason to scum read someone, instead of trying to get real reads on them. Like everything he brings up, I fell like I am left asking "why does GuiltyLion think that this scum!Vanderscamp would do that, but town!Vanderscamp wouldn't?

• Do not like him focusing on the "and then I remembered they could not be S-S" because clearly he is thinking about the pools, or he would not have caught the mistake himself AND as scum, why would he have carried that line into his posts?
  
• He has repeatedly brought up the fact that Vanderscamp voted Marci as a reason to scum read him, which also seems off to me. The main issue here, is that this is exactly how Vanders handled the first game. He made the same argument about the math of voting in each pool, made the same conclusion that it was really just best to vote for the scummiest person regardless of pool, then he voted in the 6p pool. - So why is GL taking this to be scum indicative
  -Also, at the time multiple people said that marci seemed scummy, including 2 people with experience with scum!marci (both of which have been confirmed town, so scum reading Marci at that point in the day was clearly not a scum only trait)
  
• Similarly, he him not being in the Neighborhood chat, means he is "more likely to be scum ignoring conflict/posting until they have to, rather than town just completely ignoring game relevant content." But if he also completely ignored the neighborhood chat in the first game, where is the logic that this makes him more likely to be scum
  
  He keeps saying that the way that Vanderscamp is playing, mean she is probably not town, despite the way he is playing being aligned with how he played in the last game, where he is town.

I felt similarly about how he scum read my RVS vote. His stance just did not match up with the logic he was trying to apply. He scum read me "for the casual/flippant way he voted." Then when I was like, yeah... it was a RVS vote, he tried to back up the read by saying he has caught scum on a RVS vote before, and links to a game where he said "9 feels over-explainy." So it just felt like he was reaching for a way to add a scum read there, despite it not lining up.

VOTE: Guilty Lion

[GuiltyLion]

Lukewarm, when I'm flipped, will you vote Vanderscamp tomorrow?

[GuiltyLion]

I really don't think Dunn is mafia and you are letting way too much slide with Vander here. Please read my 754 with care and really internalize it once you see my intentions are pure.

[GuiltyLion]

He has repeatedly brought up the fact that Vanderscamp voted Marci as a reason to scum read him, which also seems off to me. The main issue here, is that this is exactly how Vanders handled the first game. He made the same argument about the math of voting in each pool, made the same conclusion that it was really just best to vote for the scummiest person regardless of pool, then he voted in the 6p pool. - So why is GL taking this to be scum indicative
-Also, at the time multiple people said that marci seemed scummy, including 2 people with experience with scum!marci (both of which have been confirmed town, so scum reading Marci at that point in the day was clearly not a scum only trait)

Because Vander gave NO good reasons for scumreading Marci, and plenty of good reasons to scumread Bingle! Then he votes Marci and I've not understood why the entire game. See 236.

[GuiltyLion]

But if he also completely ignored the neighborhood chat in the first game, where is the logic that this makes him more likely to be scum

Addressed this in the last section of 749

[GuiltyLion]

If y'all wanna vote me out today, fine. But bury this scum with extreme prejudice after my flip, there is no universe where Vanderscamp gets to live through the F3, especially once you all can reread all my posts against him knowing my alignment.

If y'all wanna vote me out today, fine. But bury this scum with extreme prejudice after my flip, there is no universe where Vanderscamp gets to live through the F3, especially once you all can reread all my posts against him knowing my alignment.

If y'all wanna vote me out today, fine. But bury this scum with extreme prejudice after my flip, there is no universe where Vanderscamp gets to live through the F3, especially once you all can reread all my posts against him knowing my alignment.

reposting for emphasis. Flip Vander tomorrow after N_M hammers me, I will rage at you all in the dead thread if you do something stupid like flip Dunn instead

[GuiltyLion]

Again,

I'm not saying Vanderscamp is scum for saying he's pro-lim in the 3p and then voting in the 6p.

I'm saying Vanderscamp is scum for giving great reasons to suspect Bingle, giving comparatively weak/awful ones to suspect Marci,

claiming he has a TR on nEE

, and then voting Marci in the 6p instead of Bingle in the 3p. His stated reasoning did not align with his vote, and he cannot use any sort of justification about "we were limming in the 6p" as a defense since he said he was pro-limming in the 3p. He also then made no real effort to push Bingle from his vote in the 250s or wherever until several days later IRL once Hopkirk/nEE/N_M were both more solidified on Bingle

[Lukewarm]

Here's where I start really reiterating a push/case on him:

The strongest/most meaningful content he's posted has been about Bingle, his questionable reasoning about both the Dunn & Norway slots, but it's rather easy for me to imagine that content being either a) scum!Vanders jumping on a townie making illogical/reachy assertions without justifying why those assertions indicate

scum

alignment or b) scum!Vanders distancing/bussing a buddy!Bingle. He's also just holistically been pretty inactive this game, he hasn't bothered to fight harder against the thread consensus to eliminate in the 6p despite his strongest SR being Bingle, and he hasn't taken a lead or a stake in substantially building nor defusing any wagons.

Note that I've said nothing about Vander's attitude about the pools prior to this post. Now look at what I am saying - what's weird is that "he hasn't bothered to fight harder against thread consensus to eliminate in the 6p

DESPITE HIS STRONGEST SR BEING BINGLE

". Again, referring to the fact that his posts are all centered around Bingle being scummy to him, having reasons to suspect Bingle.

But look at how Vander twists the argument in his reply to defend himself:

It's also ridiculous to say that

I haven't pushed harder against killing into the big pool

, I have probably said more than any other player in this game about which pool is better to kill into

He drops the most important part of my point ("Bingle is your strongest SR, why were you a)voting Marcistar and b)not trying to get people to lim Bingle instead") and shifts the entire discussion to instead being about how he argued for limming in the 3p in the general sense. It's a misrep to make my argument different than what it was.

Also, very much dislike this post. He is accusing Vanders of twisting the argument, but then makes an argument that is fundamentally not true.

He says "Bingle is your strongest SR, why were you a)voting Marcistar and b)not trying to get people to lim Bingle instead"

When Vanders voted Marci, he had not once said that anything Bingle had done was scummy. So where is this idea coming from?

He votes Marci in post 230. In post 238 he says that Marci is scummier then Bingle, followed by 4 posts in a row (in his ISO) where he presses on his Marci scum read (post 239, post 243, post 244, post 249.

Then he asks Bingle a question, and really does not like his answer (post 262) and immediately moves his vote to Bingle (post 263).

But for some reason, Guilty Lion keeps saying that he scum read Bingle over Marci, and I just do not see that in his ISO at all

[GuiltyLion]

LUKEWARM

I’m extremely bad at reading Dunnstral. If you can explain how he thinks and plays as scum, and why he wouldn’t be bold like that, feel free to enlighten me.

Dunn likes to low effort as both alignments ime. Calling out a partner as sus while voting one of the other people in the pool is something that is going to inevitably look bad and without the context of the last game it isn't a safe assumption we'll solve in the 6p first.

Is Dunn capable of being bold like that? Sure. Would Dunn actually draw late game attention to himself for a throwaway RVS vote? I don't think so, when he very much prefers to take the back seat and passively manipulate the thread.

I don't like or understand this.

Why do you think Dunn is being bold?
Because I don't think a throwaway RVS vote is being bold in any way, and I haven't seen anything from him that contradicts him taking the back seat and passively manipulating.

Additionally, he wasn't directly calling n_m sus, he was just speculating on why he was in the pool. It might have been indirect but even if it was, it's not like a super bold statement to make.

Vanderscamp's ISO doesn't lend itself well to being allied with N_M imo. Ping me if you disagree.

I disagree with this, I called out in 160 some weird reasoning he's using to scumread both Lukewarm and N_M, and I suspect it may be that scum!Vanderscamp with scum!N_M trying to paint a false associative between town!Lukewarm and his buddy.

p-edit: @nEE I don't really see why he couldn't post that as scum, even if he knew it was true already. It could be a question to make him look uninformed, and it's also entirely possible N_M didn't mention you at all in pregame scum chat.

In general, it means "This post is something I find noteworthy in a way I'm not entirely sure I want to share yet but would like other people to pay attention to." but thinking about this further I don't actually see a drawback to bringing this up.

Your argument for N_M not being partnered with Scamp applies equally well to yourself, but you phrased it in a way to avoid that entirely which leaves me inclined to think you might yourself be aligned with scamp and looking to passively clear him.

I don't like this either since it's pretty easily explained by nor being town and not thinking about the perspective about me being scum with him.

I think bingle is now more scummy than n_m for the stuff I quoted.
I like a lot what Norwegian is saying.

I also think nor_GL is a scum team that absolutely does not exist because of what nor is saying about GL, I don't think nor would be calling GL confirmed town from what GL said if they were scum together.

[GuiltyLion]

IT'S RIGHT THERE IN HIS ISO HOW DO YOU NOT SEE IT

[Lukewarm]

He has repeatedly brought up the fact that Vanderscamp voted Marci as a reason to scum read him, which also seems off to me. The main issue here, is that this is exactly how Vanders handled the first game. He made the same argument about the math of voting in each pool, made the same conclusion that it was really just best to vote for the scummiest person regardless of pool, then he voted in the 6p pool. - So why is GL taking this to be scum indicative
-Also, at the time multiple people said that marci seemed scummy, including 2 people with experience with scum!marci (both of which have been confirmed town, so scum reading Marci at that point in the day was clearly not a scum only trait)

Because Vander gave NO good reasons for scumreading Marci, and plenty of good reasons to scumread Bingle! Then he votes Marci and I've not understood why the entire game. See 236.

Where did he say Bingle was scummy before he voted Marci?

And he responded to 236, by saying that he did think Marci was scummier then Bingle

[GuiltyLion]

ALL THOSE POSTS I QUOTED ARE DISTANCING WHILE VOTING TOWN ELSEWHERE

[GuiltyLion]

And he responded to 236, by saying that he did think Marci was scummier then Bingle

this is like saying if he said he was town then you'd accept it

he gave no good reasons or evidence to suggest he thought Marci was scummier than Bingle. He said she was "awkward", meanwhile brought up

actually good points

against Bingle

[GuiltyLion]

just flip Vander tomorrow and admit you were wrong after I flip green

[GuiltyLion]

N_M, come in here and hammer me so I can yell at Lukewarm from the throne of confirmed town

[GuiltyLion]

Lukewarm you're zeroing way too much in on a temporal thing that is wholly insignificant to my point. Yes he technically voted Marci first,

then

gave a bunch of reasons why he should have been voting Bingle. But all those posts were posted together, sequentially, and I immediately came in and started questioning it right afterwards. It makes no difference if he posted 235 before or after his marcistar vote, the point I'm making remains exactly the same.