Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[yessiree]

VC 1.24

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Kerset (2)

- T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (2)

- Bingle, RationalMadman

Anastasia (2)

- LlamaFluff, VFP

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Something_Smart

Note Voting - Anastasia

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-25 22:00:00)

[LlamaFluff]

I don't want to vote for T-bone though because if T-bone flips green I'll know my Kerset is scum and I don't think I can handle that >.> <.< I just want to stay with him forever.

Can we just do the VTs first?

Like missing on the Lover Pair puts us at Lylo tommorrow with scum quickhammer available on 1 misplaced vote, but if we mis-execute on the VT side that's not really true because scum still need 2 bad votes to win.

Is this reversed for anyone else? To me if we can 100% hit scum I would prefer lover target. If we hit town, I would prefer it in VT group.

[Bingle]

Walk me through this more love.

You saying this gives me flashbacks to watching British court dramas (and satires) as a kid and mishearing m’lord as m’love.

Thank you.

[Anastasia]

I don't want to vote for T-bone though because if T-bone flips green I'll know my Kerset is scum and I don't think I can handle that >.> <.< I just want to stay with him forever.

Can we just do the VTs first?

Like missing on the Lover Pair puts us at Lylo tommorrow with scum quickhammer available on 1 misplaced vote, but if we mis-execute on the VT side that's not really true because scum still need 2 bad votes to win.

Is this reversed for anyone else? To me if we can 100% hit scum I would prefer lover target. If we hit town, I would prefer it in VT group.

How do you know we can 100% hit scum?

What is the benefit of hitting the scum lovers first vs hitting the scum VT?

[VFP]

Walk me through this more love.

I'm probably not the best person to explain my thoughts.
But basically, Vex/SS is scum here. The entire ISO is them keeping RM and Ana on the town programme while marinating the other lims.

Original with night happening, I felt that scum would kill in the VTs and distance lovers to VT.
With it being nightless scum can't manipulate the kills to point towards suspects. This means scum have to get the 2 mis lims in a row.

Vex says over and over that he can sort Klick but makes no effort in sorting Klick or progression. This means that it's more of a place holder or a soother, leaving to sort to happen tomorrow after Kerset and Bingle are gone.
This makes for an easy follow up of why Klick is scum tomorrow.
RM and Ana are just placed in the always town section meaning that they never have to be sorted, and with no NK there's no impaction to them making the kill.

I disagree with Bingle that you want to go for the town look here, purely because bussing is such a common meta on this site. You get less credit than deserved and have no manipulation with NK's to suit the narrative.

RM directly just seems to be making up meta, in a way to suit a push.
As explained, I replaced into a game and told read someone due to knowing my role and their claim.
We eliminated scum and the PoE was 2 players. 1 I tracked who didn't kill and 1 left for the lim the next day.

This play was more the game sorting itself over anyone being competent.
Yet, RM is set on such a strange argument towards me. As if it's to justify voting there.

[VFP]

Can we just do the VTs first?

Which VT?

[VFP]

How do you know we can 100% hit scum?

What is the benefit of hitting the scum lovers first vs hitting the scum VT?

Less fake pushes?
Kill 2 scum, there's 1 un truthful pish.
Kill 1 scum, there's 2 un truthful pushes.

Not to mention the fact you only get 2 genuine town thought processes to 4.

[Anastasia]

Can we just do the VTs first?

Which VT?

I think it's Llama because the way he's quietly trying to take control feels like the same thing he did last game as scum.

It's just more subtle this time.

[Anastasia]

How do you know we can 100% hit scum?

What is the benefit of hitting the scum lovers first vs hitting the scum VT?

Less fake pushes?
Kill 2 scum, there's 1 un truthful pish.
Kill 1 scum, there's 2 un truthful pushes.

Not to mention the fact you only get 2 genuine town thought processes to 4.

The more untruthful pushes there are, the more lies/evidence there is to catch.

If we miss in lovers we need only 1 mis-vote from any of 4 town-side players and scum can quick-vote to lose the game.

If we miss in vt we still need 2 mis-votes to lose.

The base probability set on a miss is still a 50-50 in either situation, however the margin of error is worse.

[RationalMadman]

RM directly just seems to be making up meta, in a way to suit a push.
As explained, I replaced into a game and told read someone due to knowing my role and their claim.
We eliminated scum and the PoE was 2 players. 1 I tracked who didn't kill and 1 left for the lim the next day.

This play was more the game sorting itself over anyone being competent.
Yet, RM is set on such a strange argument towards me. As if it's to justify voting there.

Name it, what meta did I make up? I justify my votes always, how is that a scumtell? I am not going to ever fear justifying a vote because I'll be framed for my reasoning. That is futile fear.

You are not new to mafia, that much I'm certain of. You're new to the website, not to mafia. You're to be read as a very seasoned player, which isn't false meta and I highlighted what alerted me to this about you.

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: Anastasia

So originally I was thinking about this the entire wrong dirtection.
I still think Vex is scum, but in the game mode pushing scum buddies as scum at any point is bad.

It's the same as saying that if me and T-bone are scum, then Bambi would have to be as well.

Vex had Ana and RM as set town basically while scum reading Bingle / Kerset and having me and T-Bone on the back burner.

These are the scum teams

RM / Ana / SS
Kerset / Bingle / Llama
Me / T-Bone / Bambi

RM talking about me as if he can read my meta game after 1 game I replaced into.
But it's not so much as having a meta read, but to go to the assumption that I don't make mistakes or miss things in games.

There is absolutely nothing in here I can reoly to or defend. Your theory is that as scum myself and/or Ana asked Vex to Townread us in the public thread, correct? Furthermore, something about this stated theory irks me, you're logic puts you in with Bambi and sets in stone an attachment to VT claims... I believe that is the team, so I am not arguing against it but why do that?

Are you suggesting Scum don't distance or engineer conflict between themselves? Obviously they don't have to but your logic relies on a 100% assurance Scum wouldn't. I don't comprehend why you'd suggest and rely on that.

[RationalMadman]

I never ever will autotownread anyone based on friendly interactions, only the opposite path if bus seems suboptimal and the interactions seem genuine.

[RationalMadman]

I'd autotownread for hostile interaction with Scum pair and a Vanilla claim if either flipped scum and the interactions seemed genuine. The reading for friendly interactions is futile in my opinion.

[VFP]

Name it, what meta did I make up? I justify my votes always, how is that a scumtell? I am not going to ever fear justifying a vote because I'll be framed for my reasoning. That is futile fear.

You are not new to mafia, that much I'm certain of. You're new to the website, not to mafia. You're to be read as a very seasoned player, which isn't false meta and I highlighted what alerted me to this about you.

Actually I've been on the website since 2013. This has no impact to how I play though. My main makes a lot of derp mistakes.

VFP is an observant player based on what I think of them in a previous game. There is no way Scum VFP didn't read Tbone and Klick describing the Lover PT already, false or not.

You'd read it as Town I am sure.

I read your other games, most are ongoing from what I see though therefore I can't give details.

This is the meta you are trying to use.
You say there is no way I do something or don't do something as town. What makes you so sure I do something as town? When I have already proven that as town I make derp moments?
The fact of saying you read my other games, but conveniently the ones you can argue isn't in question. Your obviously saying that you read games of mine that have finished, hence the word "most". Give me an explanation from the finished games where I am always aware of the game rules, claims, and what everyone has said.

You won't be able to, because I strongly doubt you read any of my games. I can't speak for on going games, but I don't believe you got this impression from any of my games.
If you read any of my games, you would know that doubling down here is probably the worst thing you can do.

As I asked before, why do I read the game rules as town, but not as scum?

[VFP]

There is absolutely nothing in here I can reoly to or defend. Your theory is that as scum myself and/or Ana asked Vex to Townread us in the public thread, correct? Furthermore, something about this stated theory irks me, you're logic puts you in with Bambi and sets in stone an attachment to VT claims... I believe that is the team, so I am not arguing against it but why do that?

Are you suggesting Scum don't distance or engineer conflict between themselves? Obviously they don't have to but your logic relies on a 100% assurance Scum wouldn't. I don't comprehend why you'd suggest and rely on that.

Incorrect. I never mentioned that you asked them to town read you.
Again, if you read my games like advised you would understand that I do this. So this is proof again that you did not read any of my games. Would you lie about that as town?

And yes, scum will not be pushing their buddies this game.

[VFP]

I think it's Llama because the way he's quietly trying to take control feels like the same thing he did last game as scum.

It's just more subtle this time.

Llama must just do this as town or scum then, as this is what Llama did as town in my last game.
Which game was Llama scum for you?

This is town Llama taking control of the game on replace in.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85940

The more untruthful pushes there are, the more lies/evidence there is to catch.

If we miss in lovers we need only 1 mis-vote from any of 4 town-side players and scum can quick-vote to lose the game.

If we miss in vt we still need 2 mis-votes to lose.

The base probability set on a miss is still a 50-50 in either situation, however the margin of error is worse.

How did you get to this?
We lim VT
We lim VT we lose due to the special rule

We lim VT
We lim town lovers we lose due to it being 3 v 3

That is 2 mis lims.

We lim town lovers
we lim town lovers we lose due to it being 3 v 2

we lim town lovers
we lim VT we lose due to it being 3 v 3

This is also 2 mis lims.

There is no benefit to voting the VT first, other than argueing a mis lim.
But we are aiming for scum, not town so the mindset should be on the lovers.

[Anastasia]

Llama must just do this as town or scum then, as this is what Llama did as town in my last game.
Which game was Llama scum for you?

the last game before we re-rolled

this time he made a conscious effort to be more passive and only began being more active/controlly towards the end of day

[Anastasia]

How did you get to this?

if we elim town lovers game state is:

4 town
3 Mafia

if 1 town player votes the wrong lover pair, the 3 mafia can quickvote speed elim.


if we elim town vt game state is:
4 town
4 mafia

you need 2 town players to vote wrong before mafia can quick vote.
margin of error is different.

[RationalMadman]

As I asked before, why do I read the game rules as town, but not as scum?

Because Town care more about what's written in big bold text about the game especially when replacing in. Scum are more intrigued in what's in their PT simple to understand. Some players aren't observant and won't read all rules in detail (I skimread, myself) but you ignored a major thing written in massive bold text.

[RationalMadman]

Actually I've been on the website since 2013. This has no impact to how I play though. My main makes a lot of derp mistakes.

Which account? You broke rules by entering the Newbie game as a Newbie and not as an SE then, didn't you?

[RationalMadman]

You say there is no way I do something or don't do something as town. What makes you so sure I do something as town? When I have already proven that as town I make derp moments?

In the game we played, you didn't have a single derp moment and had plenty of the opposite. That is how.

[RationalMadman]

Incorrect. I never mentioned that you asked them to town read you.

You implied it. Why else would Vex not want to distance themselves from what you are saying as their scum-partner pair of lovers?

How/where did Vex and S_S distance from you and T-bone? If anything Vex trying to pocket me is a non-partner tell whereas Vex playing around T-bone and yourself and suddenly a gentle clash happening when T-bone scumreads Vex implies that I am not the partner, T-bone and you are. The only thing we agree on with Vex is that I doubt they were bussing Bingle and Kerset, that friction seemed/seems genuine except that it magically stopped afterwards.

[RationalMadman]

Give me an explanation from the finished games where I am always aware of the game rules, claims, and what everyone has said.

Every single post you made implied it, so much so you even knew how to organise your townread-to-scumread list in a way that made clear someone many scumread was top of your townreads so as to make clear if you died the next nightphase nobody was confused what alignment Ivy was (putting the other strong townread, Rathe, at the bottom of your townreads helped make it even more clear).

The day before, the way you replaced in and quickly had many townreads, scumreads and even meta-reads on Andante means you have a lot of attention and observation as Town.

Reveal who your main is and I can either realise I am wrong about your meta or prove it more correct. You keeping it secret is your issue, not mine. I have your past to go on and the game we played together implied you do not make mistakes at all as Town and pay huge attention to detail.

[RationalMadman]

You won't be able to, because I strongly doubt you read any of my games.

I can't talk about your ongoing game(s) so which are you referring to? Which is your main account?

[RationalMadman]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=85856

This game has no special rules, how can I prove you read special rules from it? You are consistently observant as Town in any game though:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12664967

in that game from your first post you show you read the entire game.