Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Gamma Emerald]

Would Superstar announce the full role, or just the Superstar portion?
Besides that question, I have no qualms with TL’s ideas that aren’t already addressed by the normal guidelines

[Gamma Emerald]

Bodyguard’s redirect is hardly recognized as one by the general populace IMO

[Umlaut]

If Superstar announces the full role it's actually pretty cool. You could have e.g. a Cop who can mod-confirm themselves to be a Cop (but not necessarily Town).

[TemporalLich]

Would Superstar announce the full role, or just the Superstar portion?
Besides that question, I have no qualms with TL’s ideas that aren’t already addressed by the normal guidelines

Superstar announces the entire role, it can also be seen as a role modifier to make an attached role able to be revealed publically.

A Superstar Cop can mod confirm themselves to be a Cop (but not necessarily Town).

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah that’s what I kinda guessed, since just the Superstar portion would be rather pointless

[TemporalLich]

Modifier Cop might be a bit too meta-gamey for a Normal, though [modifier]-Finder just feels like a natural extension to [role]-Finder.

[Gypyx]

i'm honestly baffled that modifier-finder isn't a thing

[Gamma Emerald]

I think modifier cop would be interesting, if niche

[mastina]

Roles I'd personally want to see discussed for Normality:

Reporter

(checks if someone acted or not),

Inspector

(checks if someone was targeted or not),

Superstar

(allows your role (as a Role Cop sees it) to be revealed),

Strongman as a modifier

(makes an action unblockable),

Modifier Cop

(learns what modifiers apply to someone),

[modifier]-Finder

([role]-Finder with a modifier e.g. 1-shot-Finder or Loyal-Finder),

Security Guard

(lets someone know who targeted them besides you - basically a reverse Watcher),

Visionary

(lets someone know what targeted them besides you - basically a reverse Voyeur).

Alternate role names I want to see discussed:

Mailman >

Messenger

Strongman >

Juggernaut

Probably won't be normal but I can wish:

Moonlight Dancer

(can reveal that they are a Moonlight Dancer once every phase)

For the record, I can get behind all of these. Messenger as an alt name for Mailman (allow them both as synonymous, similar to how Nurse and Backup Doctor and Deputy and Backup Cop are synonymous for the same role), no issue with adding an alt name for Strongman (tho this one I don't know), extra Action Investigation roles (I've been wanting to see the separation of the current motion detector into two separate roles for ages now), etc.

All of these I can see as being Normal.
(I removed the redirections you wanted as redirection is inherently not Normal.)

[mastina]

I doubt that redirection of any kind will ever be normal.

Bodyguard is a redirection role.

Actually, it's not.

Bodyguard isn't "redirects the scum kill onto themselves", so much as it is, "Protects from a kill and if the player protected was targeted for a kill, dies".

That might seem like the same thing, but it's not. The scum kill is still targeting the original player. A tracker tracking the scum doesn't see the scum target the bodyguard (that'd be how a redirect would work), the tracker sees the scum target their nightkill target. A watcher watching the bodyguard doesn't see the scum killing the bodyguard when the bg protects successfully (which is how a redirect would work); a watcher watching the bodyguard's target will see both the bodyguard and the scum who targeted the bg's target with a nightkill.

Bodyguards basically act as a form of pseudo-Weak/Frail (I don't think there's an actual modifier for "if scum target your target, you die"; the only role with that sort of mechanic is a Hider) Doctor, with a touch of Hider mixed in, in that they die if they successfully protect their target, but it's exactly that, a protection action that kills them, rather than a redirection action.

[TemporalLich]

well the Bodyguard variants I have from least to most tenuous are these:

VIP

- A reverse Bodyguard, redirects a kill targeting you to your target. If Bodyguard does not redirect, best described as "You will attempt to kill your target if targeted by a kill, and you will protect yourself from a single kill."

Shield

- The flip side of a Bodyguard, allows you to intercept a kill, redirecting a kill action from the performer to you. If Bodyguard does not redirect, best described as a kill roleblocker that dies if it blocks a kill.

Paladin

- A generalized Bodyguard, redirects all abilities targeting your target to you. Absolutely requires redirection to work properly.

Shield is easiest to describe without using redirection, no redirection VIP is best explained with a cop-out "Your target becomes a Bodyguard targeting you that Night", and Paladin is impossible to describe without redirection.

And tbh I'd actually prefer

Strong-Willed

being Normal for the Strongman as modifier but Strong-Willed mentions redirection.

and the wiki page for Bodyguard mentions it is a redirection role with nothing to the contrary: "The only benefit from a successful protection is essentially a

redirection

of the kill from someone who is presumably more valuable to keep alive."

and I put Moonlight Dancer as probably not Normal as it's a reusable Any Time action (and with how I'd resolve an Any Time action it resolves instantly even in the Night), something that has never been Normal.

And yeah Regretful is a modifier but it doesn't allow for making a non-redirecting bodyguard in it's current wording as it requires the target to actually die.

[implosion]

I believe Superstar is something we've discussed before (not with that name). The main problem with it is that it's hard to imagine it existing in a way that isn't explicitly, in some way, about setup-design-WIFOM. We don't want to encourage mods to make setups that are about players outguessing the mod on how the setup was designed (note that this doesn't mean that setups have to "fit together perfectly", or anything like that).

I've been kinda, out of it lately, mostly because, well, covid world does that to you. I just finished my last quarter of the school year though and summer should afford me a fair amount more mental space to allocate, I should be able to throw a new batch of roles out at some point.

[Jake The Wolfie]

How would the Cult Faction have to change in order to be normal?

[Gypyx]

take off their recruiting, give them a factional nightkill, and name them "mafia"

[TemporalLich]

I've made wiki articles on these role proposals: Inspector, Security Guard, Visionary, Role Guard, Shield, VIP

Reporter was edited to have the proposal as the standard version, and Superstar already existed.

Role Guard is the Role Watcher version of the Security Guard and Visionary.

[Umlaut]

Does a Mafia Nurse have a gun? If not, should this be specified on the Gunsmith page?

[Ythan]

I see that backups of roles with guns are listed as having guns. I think the reverse is reasonable but I'm not sure how I'd phrase it in that list.

[Umlaut]

The only roles on the no-gun list for Mafia are Traitor and Doctor, and I don't think anyone's likely to include a Backup Traitor in a game¹, so just adding Nurse explicitly ought to be fine if it's supposed to be there.

1. Though now that I've thought of it I kind of want to.

[TemporalLich]

A Backup Traitor would be a very odd role to add to a game but it would be theoretically possible - if a Traitor dies a Backup Traitor loses access to the Mafia kill and the Mafia PT

[Gypyx]

A Backup Traitor would be a very odd role to add to a game but it would be theoretically possible - if a Traitor dies a Backup Traitor loses access to the Mafia kill and the Mafia PT

such a role was refused in a previous normal review though, and i don't think the stance has changed on that

[Cook]

Does a Traitor Vigilante surrender if the main contingent dies?

[Gypyx]

well, a traitor vigilante can't exist, so i think it's a question we can leave unanswered

[TemporalLich]

Does a Traitor Vigilante surrender if the main contingent dies?

A Traitor is endgamed if all other (presumably all non-Traitor) Mafia are dead. Also Mafia Vigilante isn't Normal.

The same would apply to a Backup Traitor if a Traitor is dead. (if a Traitor isn't dead a Backup Traitor isn't a Traitor yet)

[Cheery Dog]

A Backup Traitor would be a very odd role to add to a game but it would be theoretically possible - if a Traitor dies a Backup Traitor loses access to the Mafia kill and the Mafia PT

such a role was refused in a previous normal review though, and i don't think the stance has changed on that

Reading the normal guidelines for traitor, this is very much the case, the backup traitor is not able to exist as normal given the restrictions to the traitor role. (The main mafia contingent is not told who the traitor is)

[Not_Mafia]

Could you have a Backup Traitor as long as there was no Traitor in the set-up?