Open 815: Forest Fire Redux [Endgame]

[Child of Fairies]

Ydra, if you're not looking to vote either Prism or Hectic today, what's your take on their 1v1 and Prism's continued tunnel into him?

[Infinity 324]

@prism Though I feel like you were implying earlier that if I read one of your scumgames it would be apparent that you're town here? I highly doubt that anyway but did I misinterpret you

[Ydrasse]

Ydra, if you're not looking to vote either Prism or Hectic today, what's your take on their 1v1 and Prism's continued tunnel into him?

my view is that she’s wrong but as a whole i think her play is towny enough for me not to think that it’s an effort to kill off someone. that’s about it.

for hectic, rain check until he’s active.

[Prism]

@prism Though I feel like you were implying earlier that if I read one of your scumgames it would be apparent that you're town here? I highly doubt that anyway but did I misinterpret you

It's useful for understanding specific strategies and how I approach the game, ex. Me trying to lead Hectic to the possibility that the entire sequence (through finding that most recent set of posts town) was planned. Your original questions iirc were actually helpful to that point but when you flipped what would have been the point it annoyed me. It also would not have been worth it as scum and is one of the hardest townclaims I have ever made but this requires depth of knowledge of me that I don't think I can expect from others.

It was more to get you to think about how I play overall and shift your perspective on me, which was gut and wrong, rather than proving anything divergent.

In contrast, if you soul/toneread me as extremely town, and are concerned that I have most of the table pocketed, both of those are borderline NAI.

[Infinity 324]

I think you underestimate how sticky my gut reads are, but makes sense. Also I don't think you're extremely town but yeah.

[Fidget]

Prism do you have scumgames where you outpost everyone significantly?

[Fidget]

(I say this because I've noticed a trend of Prism having extremely high WIM now and it was used as reasoning to townread her at least a couple of times)

[Lukewarm]

I think you underestimate how sticky my gut reads are, but makes sense. Also I don't think you're extremely town but yeah.

Do you have any town reads higher then Prism?

[Fidget]

i don’t remember how to play as town anymore

Hahahaha same

Gut pings me as town. Can be faked but I am also considering that your tone on this page is distinctly different from how you played the last iteration of this setup, there I believe you were also demotivated but you did better (I believe) to keep up a guise of playing for a while. In particular there was the very strong take on your partner and I feel you had at least a decent amount of reads.

Overall this seems different to me from the way you played lower activity scum in a few other instances I can think of.

[Fidget]

Fuck it

VOTE: hectic

I concur I think Lukewarm is very likely town.

[Fidget]

(In particular I'm taking a guess that Lukewarm as scum would be more likely to stick within general PoE whereas here I feel it is more likely town!Lukewarm genuinely townpinged off of the lower activity and lesser read slots and finds himself left with few choices. It's something I think would be more difficult to fake and also a lot less intuitive to do)

Maybe that makes more sense in my head but it's not like this is a controversial take so, should be fine.

[Fidget]

To me, Hectic not knowing how to fake that kind of frustration/annoyance would be akin to meeting an MLB player and watching them not know how to hold the bat.

Man I feel like if someone knows you well being able to fake that convincingly is more akin to knowing how to hit a nasty curveball

Could be overestimating this though

Faking your emotions convincingly is quite hard, at least for me it is.

You can feel nervous when getting pressed as scum, but it's not uncontrollable or completely useless and you can absolutely selectively show/channel it for an intentional result

I guess my argument is that hectic would be unlikely to use that intentionally for fear of how it would be viewed by people other than you, but yeah maybe I'm just wrong about that.

Oh. That post. That was one hundred percent wine.

Also. Prism accused Hectic of sounding nervous first. Therefore I find it less likely that Hectic brought up the nervousness thing first as a sort of projection/distraction from his own nervousness. It was already on the table.

Overall, I don't think it means anything.

[Prism]

(I say this because I've noticed a trend of Prism having extremely high WIM now and it was used as reasoning to townread her at least a couple of times)

Iceland explicitly capitalized on this misconception.

[Prism]

"Outpost by far" does not quite apply to that game but my posting activity was extreme, and was only rivaled by two very enthusiastic new players matching the energy.

[Fidget]

Wrt child the fact that she's looking at your tone in the shorter post vs the longer posts closely enough to notice that they feel different stands out to me

That sounds like a good indicator of reading intently. Not entirely town exclusive but a good point for them sure.

child's read on me didn't really feel like it was something someone would have to dig into much, because to me it boils down to "when post actual thoughts, feels towny." i don't get an aura of solving and i'm a bit put off by child calling things interesting and like... eh. that's about how i feel about it. like, i guess i feel like child is a bit townier after it but it's just because they shared some thoughts about things which is like, at least they're thinking about this game and playing it a bit but it didn't move me to the point where i felt like they were actively solving, or engaging much. just some reads put out and then that's it.

In contrast that doesn't sound very deep. Maybe I read that post fully now and see.

Ydrasse - Null/Town Lean? A fair amount of her posts feel toneless to me, but when she makes posts with more than one line in them they feel sorta towny to me, as though she's actually trying to solve instead of looking like she is. Maybe there's a world where ydra/prism are both scum but that would largely depend on Prism flipping scum so it's not really much to talk about here.

It more or less sounds like "When Ydrasse puts the effort in, she sounds like she is genuinely solving". Which is a read yes! But I would like to know more of why Child thinks she is actually solving over trying to look like she is.

Looking at this, Child's townreads pretty much all say "Seems to lack an ulterior motive". Which, is a fair reason to townread someone sure, although it's also a little bland when unsubstantiated. It kind of looks like a readslist that I could fake probably decently easily (or produce as town, certainly). The townreads all share the "lacks motive" reason and then add one interesting point about the person's play that seems interesting.

The nulls on Ydrasse/I don't say much other than we're towny sometimes. Actually one of them seems interesting, and I'm more curious about it:

Fidget - Could honestly go either way? This is an interesting one. I find a lot of Fidget's posts fairly towny but the conclusions she comes to in some of them feel less than genuine, such as voting Prism for her 1v1 with Hectic and then later asking if it felt "Obviously TvT" to anybody else. Her sorta-tunnel on Lukewarm is pretty interesting since it's an angle nobody else seems to have, but it could be coming from either alignment for different reasons so she's pretty null for me.

What about voting Prism and asking if the interaction felt "obviously TvT" to anyone seems.. disingenuous to you? I ask because this is seems like a unique possibly genuine thought but I am unclear on what you mean.

Also as an aside, what tunnel on Lukewarm are you talking about?

[Fidget]

T3/Johnny - Scumlean both for similar reasons, high vote count to low content ratio. There's very little in T3's iso that isn't just a vote or an agreement with whatever the page consensus is, which also leads to a fair amount of flipflopping ("I don't totally get the case on Prism > my top 3 scum are Johnny Child Prism > My gut is telling me Prism is town" in 3 posts in a row in his iso is certainly something). T3 reads opportunistic scum to me, but since everybody else seems to be content to have him as a backburner read right now I don't see much of an incentive to try and push on him.

same with Johnny to a lesser degree because he's pretty much not here right now and I'd rather wait for him to come back or the slot to be force replaced so we can properly sort him rather than quickelimming, which helps nobody but scum as it denies town any sort of possible information. There just isn't really much of anything to say about him until he comes back, so here we are.

Prism - Scumlean. This isn't meant to be a post about Prism so I'll keep it short but aside from what I've already said I think the threat to self-hammer, followed by bringing up a game where she did self-hammer as town to clear herself, and then following that by saying she won't self-hammer here makes me feel like she's got a role that can't and she's just trying to bluff to take the heat off of her.

Oh, to conclude, I feel that reading "Votes often and has a low amount of content" as "opportunistic" is a bit underwhelming. Although we can talk about it. I don't think T3's obvious inconsistency with regards to the "I don't totally get the case on Prism > my top 3 scum are Johnny Child Prism > My gut is telling me Prism is town" is scum indicative at all. If you want to call it opportunistic, you've got to establish the scum motivation for making those posts.

I'm not so sure there is one, but you know town can be wildly inconsistent. Calling it "opportunistic" and calling it a day feels like a disservice.

Johnny I pretty much agree though. Not enough.

Not so sure on the Prism logic, I guess I'm not familiar with that part of the game enough though. I feel like that's likely a pretty small portion of her play to get your strongest scumread off of, though.

[Infinity 324]

I think you underestimate how sticky my gut reads are, but makes sense. Also I don't think you're extremely town but yeah.

Do you have any town reads higher then Prism?

I have a lot of weak townreads this game, but you're a significantly stronger townread than prism and so is ydrasse I guess.

[T3]

T3/Johnny - Scumlean both for similar reasons, high vote count to low content ratio. There's very little in T3's iso that isn't just a vote or an agreement with whatever the page consensus is, which also leads to a fair amount of flipflopping ("I don't totally get the case on Prism > my top 3 scum are Johnny Child Prism > My gut is telling me Prism is town" in 3 posts in a row in his iso is certainly something). T3 reads opportunistic scum to me, but since everybody else seems to be content to have him as a backburner read right now I don't see much of an incentive to try and push on him.

same with Johnny to a lesser degree because he's pretty much not here right now and I'd rather wait for him to come back or the slot to be force replaced so we can properly sort him rather than quickelimming, which helps nobody but scum as it denies town any sort of possible information. There just isn't really much of anything to say about him until he comes back, so here we are.

Prism - Scumlean. This isn't meant to be a post about Prism so I'll keep it short but aside from what I've already said I think the threat to self-hammer, followed by bringing up a game where she did self-hammer as town to clear herself, and then following that by saying she won't self-hammer here makes me feel like she's got a role that can't and she's just trying to bluff to take the heat off of her.

Oh, to conclude, I feel that reading "Votes often and has a low amount of content" as "opportunistic" is a bit underwhelming. Although we can talk about it. I don't think T3's obvious inconsistency with regards to the "I don't totally get the case on Prism > my top 3 scum are Johnny Child Prism > My gut is telling me Prism is town" is scum indicative at all. If you want to call it opportunistic, you've got to establish the scum motivation for making those posts.

I'm not so sure there is one, but you know town can be wildly inconsistent. Calling it "opportunistic" and calling it a day feels like a disservice.

Johnny I pretty much agree though. Not enough.

Not so sure on the Prism logic, I guess I'm not familiar with that part of the game enough though. I feel like that's likely a pretty small portion of her play to get your strongest scumread off of, though.

I can explain what I meant tere.
At first, I didn't getthe case on Prism. I then reread, and thoughtthat by play she was scummy. Then I added on that by gut I felt she was towny.

[Lukewarm]

I think you underestimate how sticky my gut reads are, but makes sense. Also I don't think you're extremely town but yeah.

Do you have any town reads higher then Prism?

I have a lot of weak townreads this game, but you're a significantly stronger townread than prism and so is ydrasse I guess.

Was getting ready to grill you for this, turns out I just misread 568

[Child of Fairies]

Wrt child the fact that she's looking at your tone in the shorter post vs the longer posts closely enough to notice that they feel different stands out to me

That sounds like a good indicator of reading intently. Not entirely town exclusive but a good point for them sure.

child's read on me didn't really feel like it was something someone would have to dig into much, because to me it boils down to "when post actual thoughts, feels towny." i don't get an aura of solving and i'm a bit put off by child calling things interesting and like... eh. that's about how i feel about it. like, i guess i feel like child is a bit townier after it but it's just because they shared some thoughts about things which is like, at least they're thinking about this game and playing it a bit but it didn't move me to the point where i felt like they were actively solving, or engaging much. just some reads put out and then that's it.

In contrast that doesn't sound very deep. Maybe I read that post fully now and see.

Ydrasse - Null/Town Lean? A fair amount of her posts feel toneless to me, but when she makes posts with more than one line in them they feel sorta towny to me, as though she's actually trying to solve instead of looking like she is. Maybe there's a world where ydra/prism are both scum but that would largely depend on Prism flipping scum so it's not really much to talk about here.

It more or less sounds like "When Ydrasse puts the effort in, she sounds like she is genuinely solving". Which is a read yes! But I would like to know more of why Child thinks she is actually solving over trying to look like she is.

Looking at this, Child's townreads pretty much all say "Seems to lack an ulterior motive". Which, is a fair reason to townread someone sure, although it's also a little bland when unsubstantiated. It kind of looks like a readslist that I could fake probably decently easily (or produce as town, certainly). The townreads all share the "lacks motive" reason and then add one interesting point about the person's play that seems interesting.

The nulls on Ydrasse/I don't say much other than we're towny sometimes. Actually one of them seems interesting, and I'm more curious about it:

Fidget - Could honestly go either way? This is an interesting one. I find a lot of Fidget's posts fairly towny but the conclusions she comes to in some of them feel less than genuine, such as voting Prism for her 1v1 with Hectic and then later asking if it felt "Obviously TvT" to anybody else. Her sorta-tunnel on Lukewarm is pretty interesting since it's an angle nobody else seems to have, but it could be coming from either alignment for different reasons so she's pretty null for me.

What about voting Prism and asking if the interaction felt "obviously TvT" to anyone seems.. disingenuous to you? I ask because this is seems like a unique possibly genuine thought but I am unclear on what you mean.

Also as an aside, what tunnel on Lukewarm are you talking about?

re: Ydra, in her longer posts she makes a pretty legitimate effort to talk her thoughts out, explain where she's at, and engage with the thread from multiple viewpoints. She sticks to her points when questioned, but not in a confrontational way that makes me think she's saying them in an expectation to be challenged and work it out as opposed to trying to control the narrative towards or away from people.

As an aside, I kinda want to bring up 526 and 531. 526 and the buildup to it feel like a a genuine push on me, making a genuine effort to engage with infinity and prism to see where they're at and debate about me, but then 531 recontextualises it as a sort-of vanity vote because she /wants/ to be right but admits she doesn't really have much?

As for the aside, maybe "tunnel" wasn't entirely the right word. I was referring to how you were the only player who didn't seem to fully tr lukewarm right off the bat and instead made an effort to push him and engage with him about things. In my head this could come from either town (wants to properly sort a slot everyone else has written as town to avoid town being played) or scum (wants to create some confusion on a slot that people are tring), so I wrote it off as interesting, but not alignment indicative on its own.

T3/Johnny - Scumlean both for similar reasons, high vote count to low content ratio. There's very little in T3's iso that isn't just a vote or an agreement with whatever the page consensus is, which also leads to a fair amount of flipflopping ("I don't totally get the case on Prism > my top 3 scum are Johnny Child Prism > My gut is telling me Prism is town" in 3 posts in a row in his iso is certainly something). T3 reads opportunistic scum to me, but since everybody else seems to be content to have him as a backburner read right now I don't see much of an incentive to try and push on him.

same with Johnny to a lesser degree because he's pretty much not here right now and I'd rather wait for him to come back or the slot to be force replaced so we can properly sort him rather than quickelimming, which helps nobody but scum as it denies town any sort of possible information. There just isn't really much of anything to say about him until he comes back, so here we are.

Prism - Scumlean. This isn't meant to be a post about Prism so I'll keep it short but aside from what I've already said I think the threat to self-hammer, followed by bringing up a game where she did self-hammer as town to clear herself, and then following that by saying she won't self-hammer here makes me feel like she's got a role that can't and she's just trying to bluff to take the heat off of her.

Oh, to conclude, I feel that reading "Votes often and has a low amount of content" as "opportunistic" is a bit underwhelming. Although we can talk about it. I don't think T3's obvious inconsistency with regards to the "I don't totally get the case on Prism > my top 3 scum are Johnny Child Prism > My gut is telling me Prism is town" is scum indicative at all. If you want to call it opportunistic, you've got to establish the scum motivation for making those posts.

I'm not so sure there is one, but you know town can be wildly inconsistent. Calling it "opportunistic" and calling it a day feels like a disservice.

Johnny I pretty much agree though. Not enough.

Not so sure on the Prism logic, I guess I'm not familiar with that part of the game enough though. I feel like that's likely a pretty small portion of her play to get your strongest scumread off of, though.

I think for T3 being opportunistic, looking at his iso in the context of the game and where each post is, to me a majority of his contribution to the game has been coming in, jumping on whichever not-Prism wagon has the most steam behind it, and stating something somebody else stated recently. His most original line of thinking would be saying Prism isn't scum when her wagon was near its highest, but even then that came after Ydra had already stepped in and Infinity unvoted. In context a lot of his iso reads to me like him throwing votes at whoever's got momentum to see what sticks, hence opportunistic. He's not doing anything to sort, just advance wagons on people whenever he can.

As for the three posts I highlighted earlier, it's important to note they were all within 10 posts of eachother. He posts to be nay-Prism elim, and then his very next post has him put her in his top 3 scum anyways. When he's called out on this, he backpedals the second statement with no explanation and only when it came up again later did he respond and actually try to explain himself. I'd argue T3's most recent post is the most we've gotten out of him at all in terms of thoughts on the game, and even then it's a single sentence.

And as for Prism, I quite literally say in the post you're quoting that I'm going to keep it short because it's not a post about Prism, and I even directly say "aside from what I've already said" at the start. I'd already made various posts on Prism and why I found her actions scummy and didn't feel the need to reiterate myself, so I only added what had happened since my most recent post about Prism, which was mostly her tilting and threatening to self-hammer.

[Ydrasse]

UNVOTE:

[Prism]

Ydrasse, do you mind laying out how your read on Child has progressed over time?

Perhaps there is a post to follow, but whether there is or not it is curious to me that you unvoted before anything else here; Child is nowhere close to eliminated and only 3 minutes passed. Plenty of time to chew on the post further.

[Fidget]

re: Ydra, in her longer posts she makes a pretty legitimate effort to talk her thoughts out, explain where she's at, and engage with the thread from multiple viewpoints. She sticks to her points when questioned, but not in a confrontational way that makes me think she's saying them in an expectation to be challenged and work it out as opposed to trying to control the narrative towards or away from people.

As an aside, I kinda want to bring up 526 and 531. 526 and the buildup to it feel like a a genuine push on me, making a genuine effort to engage with infinity and prism to see where they're at and debate about me, but then 531 recontextualises it as a sort-of vanity vote because she /wants/ to be right but admits she doesn't really have much?

As for the aside, maybe "tunnel" wasn't entirely the right word. I was referring to how you were the only player who didn't seem to fully tr lukewarm right off the bat and instead made an effort to push him and engage with him about things. In my head this could come from either town (wants to properly sort a slot everyone else has written as town to avoid town being played) or scum (wants to create some confusion on a slot that people are tring), so I wrote it off as interesting, but not alignment indicative on its own.

This is fabulous, thank you.

What about voting Prism and asking if the interaction felt "obviously TvT" to anyone seems.. disingenuous to you? I ask because this is seems like a unique possibly genuine thought but I am unclear on what you mean.

Still curious what you meant by this.

I think for T3 being opportunistic, looking at his iso in the context of the game and where each post is, to me a majority of his contribution to the game has been coming in, jumping on whichever not-Prism wagon has the most steam behind it, and stating something somebody else stated recently. His most original line of thinking would be saying Prism isn't scum when her wagon was near its highest, but even then that came after Ydra had already stepped in and Infinity unvoted. In context a lot of his iso reads to me like him throwing votes at whoever's got momentum to see what sticks, hence opportunistic. He's not doing anything to sort, just advance wagons on people whenever he can.

As for the three posts I highlighted earlier, it's important to note they were all within 10 posts of eachother. He posts to be nay-Prism elim, and then his very next post has him put her in his top 3 scum anyways. When he's called out on this, he backpedals the second statement with no explanation and only when it came up again later did he respond and actually try to explain himself. I'd argue T3's most recent post is the most we've gotten out of him at all in terms of thoughts on the game, and even then it's a single sentence.

How are you differentiating between scum T3 being lazy versus town T3 just going with whatever his first thought is upon reading without bothering to explain much?

For me, the sequence of three posts on Prism you mentioned seemed to suggest not scum actually. Scum tends to keep track of their reads -- doing something such as calling Prism town then after 10 minutes deciding Prism is in your PoE seems like you blatantly don't care how your reads appear. So we saw the same thing, different conclusions. I felt that doing that as an opportunistic strategy makes little sense when T3's vote is not that weighty (he isn't deciding who gets elimed really) and it clearly reflects poorly on him to switch to a town miselim without any reasoning or previous SR. So why do it?

I guess if T3 actually plays scum this way then it's more probable. It came across like easy to pick at town behaviour to me, though.

I don't totally get the case against Prism.

Johhny, Faries, and Prism are my top 3 scum after a reread.

What changed in this 14 min game here?

Like what did you see in the reread that you missed the first time?

Mainly the not engaging properly with Infinity pinged me. My gut is telling me Prism is town though.

The backpedal you mention is understandable though. I think that comes across as pretty bad and doesn't really seem very sensical. Almost comes across like he personally thinks Prism is town and yet felt obligated to scumread her in the other post for some reason. So I can see what you mean there.

And as for Prism, I quite literally say in the post you're quoting that I'm going to keep it short because it's not a post about Prism, and I even directly say "aside from what I've already said" at the start. I'd already made various posts on Prism and why I found her actions scummy and didn't feel the need to reiterate myself, so I only added what had happened since my most recent post about Prism, which was mostly her tilting and threatening to self-hammer.

Makes sense. I assumed you were summarizing in that post but I misinterpreted.

I get the sense that Fairy's reads are pretty well thought out, now, actually. Shame on me for focusing on the reads list.

[Ydrasse]

Ydrasse, do you mind laying out how your read on Child has progressed over time?

Perhaps there is a post to follow, but whether there is or not it is curious to me that you unvoted before anything else here; Child is nowhere close to eliminated and only 3 minutes passed. Plenty of time to chew on the post further.

it had the depth i was looking for in comparison to their last post, and i felt that the way they elaborated now let me understand them more. it was easy to follow through with their logic and i think that they were genuine in it, so i no longer felt compelled to vote them.

[Lukewarm]

So have we decided that the entire scum team decided to take the week off?