Townstumps Mafia (Endgame)

[Mia and Maya Fey]

My tr on Nom keeps getting stronger the more he posts. They speak to a townie mindset.

Yes encourage the tunnel. Thank you.

I’m not, I’m not saying I agree with his read on you, please don’t put words in my mouth. I’m saying that I think he’s town. I don’t see any reason why I should move my vote. Jjh hasn’t done anything to change my mind.

[Moongrass]

His only content is tunneling me, and you're encouraging him to post MORE of it.

[Mia and Maya Fey]

Okay Cyrus is 100% town.
There is absolutely no way scum!cyrus makes this kind of confrontational post from the get go.
scum!cyrus from my experience is also someone who is entirely focused on themselves in a game and will largely talk about why a player is voting them etc, for that reason, this kind of post is massive +town for cyrus

Cyrus what's the best point you have on JJH being scum?

why all the vote hoping?

Fairly sure about this.

I'll defend this tooth and nail considering cyrus is hard mislimbait material

Then let's say 90% town, yes?

These series of posts tend express a townie mindset, more often than not. Do you not agree with this? @Moon

[NorwegianboyEE]

@Moongrass
Well, why did your read on Gamma change?
Like i’m seeing the same thing. You’re moving the goalpost and accusing Nom of tunneling instead of answering the question. Or did you scumread Nom? Idk, that’s not very clear either at this point.

[nomnomnom]

Okay, so I go in your ISO and I see this:

I am the opposite

Gamma looks very much town

Yeah. A lot of people equivocation activity with town and he flew in and popped out a lot of posts at one time... without actually giving us anything to chew on.

There's no meat on all those bones.

While I disagree with House's assessment, I think both he and gamma are town.

Same.

I'm thinking it's nom^3/gamma/NK15.

Why am I not surprised by the NK vote? Gamma next right.

Titus could you talk more about your townread on Gamma?

It's a tonal townread mostly. He doesn't seem to back down when pushed or FoSed. He's clear and understandable too.

I'm seeing what you're seeing but not sure how being calm and clear comes exclusively from town Gamma.

Do you think Gamma is town house?

I think he's town actually. I'm going to find it hard to sort nom, NK read doesn't change.

To me there's like massive leaps of logic in there.
The only thing in your ISO I can see that could have changed your initial gamma TR to a SR when you posted your solve is you insisting that Gamma answers a question of yours and him not doing so, but I don't like making assumptions because that was never clarified. Which is why I asked you back then to clarify that read. And also why I am asking you to clarify it now.

[Moongrass]

No that's the easiest read in the game. Plus they insta buddied Cyrus on their entrance like a slimeball, then pivoted into tunneling me... no on the town mindset imo.

[Moongrass]

@Moongrass
Well, why did your read on Gamma change?
Like i’m seeing the same thing. You’re moving the goalpost and accusing Nom of tunneling instead of answering the question. Or did you scumread Nom? Idk, that’s not very clear either at this point.

I reread his iso when I was bouncing ideas off of my ex-friend and said actually I think he's town.

If you were in my position where it's glaringly obvious that nom has no real interest in my answers and see it for the shake down it is, you'd get why I refuse to interact with him.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Yeah like, it feels like Moonshot decided to townread Gamma here, but then forgot their initial fabricated read and now decided to scumread Gamma. And double the points by them going full Zuckerberg instead of answering a very simple discrepancy.
I would vote Moonshot here.

[Moongrass]

What are you talking about?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Also i keep calling the Moonshot for some reason but i intend to say Moongrass.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Also other way around.
Typing things hastily while tired from work and sitting on the bus is surprisingly not a good idea.

[Moongrass]

I changed my reads and refused to answer someone who has never approached me in good faith. But your version sounds better, go with that.

[Moongrass]

Clearly I'm doing something wrong if 2/3 confirmed town think I'm scum so I'm going to bed.

[Titus]

@Moongrass I know it's possible Gamma is scum but that type of posting.

@House, Nothing changed. I just forgot my read on you.

I don't like nom calling cyrus miselimination bait. He's near a universal townread.

[nomnomnom]

I don't like nom calling cyrus miselimination bait. He's near a universal townread.

That's not true at all.
That call is also because I know Cyrus as a player and I read the reasons that some slots have to vote there and I call that pure mislimbait because this is what I know of Cyrus' playstyle.
I also disagree with Moon calling the read easy. I think town!Cyrus and scum!Cyrus actually have subtle differences between them that are not immediately obvious.

[Mia and Maya Fey]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=200

I was trying to find some Moon scumgames but there aren’t any, so I’m linking their iso from GS, which was extremely painful to read - even after all this time.

Especially the part about milk. :/

[northsidegal]

man, it really makes me miss ankamius when people think that looking at the formation of wagons is useless unless you have a flip. does nobody think that gamestate analysis is possible or useful?

anyways, i think that NK15 is a pretty bad vote. he's d1 lynchbait in a

lot

of games which is weak evidence that he's town in this game, but the more salient point for me is that based on the wagons earlier i think it almost just doesn't make sense for him to be scum, unless his partners decided to immediately hardbus him (which i think is unlikely). the jjh wagon didn't form in response to NK's wagon, it was actually there before his wagon formed. so the question is, if NK is scum, what are his partners doing?

you guys might think this analysis is pretty weak, and that's fine. i'm not explaining it the best – i historically haven't often done gamestate reads. it just stood out to me as being particularly relevant given that almost everyone was on either jjh or NK, but i already am almost entirely sure jjh is town, and even without that based on the gamestate it didn't really feel like one of these was a scum wagon that was being fought against by some people.

[northsidegal]

The fact that NK has completely ignored his wagon in favor of voting up a slot I am convinced is complete mislim bait is also making me comfortable in my vote here.

why does he vote cyrus instead of the JJH counterwagon?

[northsidegal]

Yeah like, it feels like Moonshot decided to townread Gamma here, but then forgot their initial fabricated read and now decided to scumread Gamma

. And double the points by them going full Zuckerberg instead of answering a very simple discrepancy.
I would vote Moonshot here.

1) i think that scum almost never ever do the bolded
2) moon did something almost exactly the same in the last game that i played with her, with seeming read shifts from someone being voted shifting instantly to being at the top of her readslist. i similarly asked and could not get an answer out of her for why it had happened. just wanted to give some perspective.

[NorwegianboyEE]

1) i think that scum almost never ever do the bolded

I did see the bolded on a scum player once though, so it’s not like i pulled that read from my ass.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Point is i didn’t see the progression as genuine.
But apparently they did do exactly that as town once?
Weird, but ok. That makes things different.

[nomnomnom]

For the record, it's not that I don't value looking at wagon progression as good, it's that I don't want to do it myself because I know in the past this has caused me to hardcore tunnel with reads, it's mostly a me issue so I tend to avoid doing it until I have flips where I'm more certain that it isn't some kind of hardcore tunnel I'm doing.

The fact that NK has completely ignored his wagon in favor of voting up a slot I am convinced is complete mislim bait is also making me comfortable in my vote here.

why does he vote cyrus instead of the JJH counterwagon?

I'm not in his mind so I can't say for sure but the fact that he has voted there after quoting a jjh post makes me think that scum!him could just be piggybacking off a player's read, and as I said, Cyrus is that kind of player who will attract votes entirely on play and posting style so it's an easy vote to make. Certainly easier than voting jjh here I'd say.
Do you think he's town?
If you do, you have a version of your game that has jjh/moon/nk all as town, so I would be curious as to where you think the scum would be in a world where that is the case
pedit: I've thought numerous times that it could simply be that moon is exhibiting some classic town read shift but what makes me unsure is his insistence on avoiding the question altogether. In my mind if he's town he would have no trouble telling me something he told norwee? Instead he went on a tirade about how unfun I am to play against when I was simply asking questions, so basically the question in my mind really is "would town!moon be this annoyed by me right about now?"

[nomnomnom]

There's also something to be said about the fact that I don't believe scum would automatically vote the counterwagon in this case depending on how scared they would be on how that would look like, I think it would take a certain kind of confidence to do it and somehow not care about how that makes you look, and I don't think NK is that type of scum

[NorwegianboyEE]

Same as what Nom is saying though, i don't think it's inherently scummy to have some reads switch around when it's early day 1, and maybe it's hard to explain. But having that feeling escalate into a full "NO U SCUM" onto Nomnomnom is what i find suspicious. They could have just been clear about their stance considering Nom asked a pefectly valid question and i don't see why Moongrass as town wouldn't be self-aware enough as town to understand why town!Nom might find that suspicious instead of just considering it an scum attack on them.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Did Moongrass also try to hard discredit you and scumread you when you asked why their progression was odd in that previous game NSG?