Yes. The classic "distance" play of town reading each otherIn post 743, cyrus62 wrote:more interested in showing why i think there is a distance play. here.In post 741, Lukewarm wrote:Are you saying that you are going to compare what I said now compared to what Hockey said before, in order to prove that I am changing my reads to fit the situation?In post 737, cyrus62 wrote:this is what luke saids now. but here is what hockey said.
Shouldn't you compare me to me?
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this is bad strange. every one has the right to have scum leans. most people who have played here long enough believe lurkers are scum. so are you voting him for voting hascal to get more info?In post 719, StrangeMatter wrote:
Lack of activity should be looked at as a whole to really say that. This answer still feels very thrown out there, pulling an implication that they are possible lurking scum. Also, you've been pushing getting haschel into talking more, but then have them on a scum lean. I there's only one part of that, which makes sense. Getting them to talk more gives more opportunity to read them right now, but not what is considered a scum lean.In post 711, Save The Dragons wrote:i mean it could also be haschel who hasn't really posted much- cyrus62
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yes why on earth would scum town read each other. look i said show me why i should follow you.In post 750, Lukewarm wrote:
Yes. The classic "distance" play of town reading each otherIn post 743, cyrus62 wrote:
more interested in showing why i think there is a distance play. here.In post 741, Lukewarm wrote:
Are you saying that you are going to compare what I said now compared to what Hockey said before, in order to prove that I am changing my reads to fit the situation?In post 737, cyrus62 wrote:this is what luke saids now. but here is what hockey said.
Shouldn't you compare me to me?- Lukewarm
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No-
No you didn't... You told me that I should be voting Hockey.
I do not want to offend you again, but I do feel like if I keep responding to you, we are going to just dominate the thread.
I think I am gonna wait for Zyla to get back to me before I post again :/I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
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Alright well I think STD is scummier tbh because of their logs. They are super non-comittal imo and are just lurking(could be a difference in playstyles). They have made about 3-4 TR's(some of them being super lazy imo), and they havent made SR'S to push so this is why u vote STD over LukeIn post 749, cyrus62 wrote:
show me why i should vote strange over hockey? @ hockey show me why i should vote std over lukewarm . show me why you two are town. you may not be willing to work with me. but i'll work with you if you show me why i should trust you.In post 746, Lukewarm wrote:Do you really think that the best play for me to make here is to just follow your vote?- StrangeMatter
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In post 710, StrangeMatter wrote:
That last part of this just seems a little weird to me. It felt like you just kind of threw the thought out there. Also, I'm not sure what caused this, but what's the change between post #67 and now that changed your mind?In post 704, Save The Dragons wrote:going through some personal shit atm so i may be in and out but tonally i'm not a fan of strange, trying to sort out if that's playstyle or if he's scum
it could be hockey with his constant push of me i don't know if the read has developed or if it's a lazy push
it could also be haschel
Two things I really noticed from STD was their change from an early TR to implying a SR just today. Right now, I don't see a reasonable reason other than lurkers are scum from what you've said. Even then, their answer is pretty much just repeating what they've said already. By your standards its completely reasonable, but could've been explained better, which to me points towards a low effort, which I feel is something scum can do.In post 751, cyrus62 wrote:
this is bad strange. every one has the right to have scum leans. most people who have played here long enough believe lurkers are scum. so are you voting him for voting hascal to get more info?In post 719, StrangeMatter wrote:
Lack of activity should be looked at as a whole to really say that. This answer still feels very thrown out there, pulling an implication that they are possible lurking scum. Also, you've been pushing getting haschel into talking more, but then have them on a scum lean. I there's only one part of that, which makes sense. Getting them to talk more gives more opportunity to read them right now, but not what is considered a scum lean.In post 711, Save The Dragons wrote:i mean it could also be haschel who hasn't really posted much- Save The Dragons
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my content has probably gone down due to my future in-laws being in town and today's not a great day because i had to kick my fiance's father off of our property last night. i realize i haven't been around before that but i'll try to see if i can stay caught up and post a little more.
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How so? We've got a ton of time left and they currently don't have someone they want to keep their vote on, that seems like it's NAI to me
Honestly, it mostly gut and possibly some confirmation bias at this point, but I haven't seen enough towniness to counteract the things I've pointed out before previously.In post 730, Lukewarm wrote:Maybe I am addressing the wrong person....
@Zyla, why do you think that Hockey is scummy?
To me, while that's definitely a possibility, it's also quite possible for scum!strange that their partner is inexperienced, doesn't use the PT, etc. I don't think it does enough for their case to count it either way
Honestly, I'm not sure that quite answers my question: atIn post 738, HockeyFan wrote:Yes there is still a possibly of their beingSpoiler:1 scum between them, but I am more confident in STD flipping scum(and being the 2nd mafia) rn so that is why I am pushing it morethatpoint, when you seemed sure that one of them was scum, and you were sure Azeru was town, why didn't you vote for or question Pav?- Lukewarm
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Okay, I guess I will look to your iso to try and figure it outIn post 757, Zyla wrote:Honestly, it mostly gut and possibly some confirmation bias at this point, but I haven't seen enough towniness to counteract the things I've pointed out before previously.I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
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Alright there are a few directions I'm interested in going. First off, Strange spends the bulk of the game focusing on just three players. There's a lot of suspicion about HockeyFan, a whole lot of sound with no substance about Cyrus, and the interactions with Pavowski which ultimately result in a vote on Pavowski. There are a few things I see here. First of all, the push back on Pavowski is not good. Pav is playing very pro-town, and his vote for Strange is well-reasoned and well-justified. Meanwhile, Strange's defense of their own vote on Pav comes across as lackluster to me.
Also of note, Strange says that Zyla is a "decently good townread". No explanation is given.
So, is Zyla a good townread? She certainly has a long enough ISO that we should be able to find out. But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not. Out of all of her posts I was only able to pinpoint four that look like they are scumhunting or scumhunting-adjacent: A vote on Hockey with weak reasoning, a minor defense of Lukewarm with weak reasoning, a list of reads where the scumreads are justified with "Mostly gut read" on Strange and "I feel like I've made my case enough here" on Hockey (she has not btw).
Vote: Zylais a good road to follow and Zyla/Strange isn't a possibility that strikes me as beyond the pale.
Meanwhile Azeru is making some posts that I like, and Fen seems weirdly focused on me to a point that is disproportionate with the few posts I had made.
I'm still gonna be rereading more, but this should provide enough of a framework for a discussion for now.- Lukewarm
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From looking at your mentions of him, I think it boils down to him avoiding your questions early in the day, and then you tthink his reads are not genuine because he can't back them up or outright walks them back when you press him on it
Spoiler:
Did I miss anything you want me to look at as well?
If that is your case, I will go back and look at his pushes. I think that for the first chunk of the day, I was mainly interacting with his weird partner interaction case on me. I know I have a tendency to TR people who loudly push me, because I don't feel like I am a particularly easy person to push a miselim on, and I expect scum to be looking for that kind of person to target Day 1.
I am not sure that I saw enough in your iso to shake my own read on him, but I will give it a second look.I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
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I feel like you made a better case against strange then you did against Zyla, but then you placed your vote on Zyla. Can you talk more about why you went with Zyla over strange?
A lot of what you said about Strange matches some of my own concerns over that slot, but I am reading Zyla as town, so I am curious what you are seeing there.I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
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I mean, I literally just isoed her, and I felt like she was doing a decent amount of digging into Hockey. Questioning his reads and votes and how those didn't line up for her.I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
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I also find it strange that you boiled her scumread on Strange down to "mostly just gut" when this is what she said
Sure she says that it is gut, but she also backs it up with saying that she is posting a lot with very little content. And, like compare that to the case you just made against ZylaIn post 284, Zyla wrote:Honestly, looking through their Iso, I just see a lot of posts with very little to say. Mostly gut read though
Why is that a good reason for you to scum read Zyla, but then a weak reason for Zyla to scum read Strange?In post 759, Haschel Cedricson wrote:But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not.I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
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"Decent amount" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there; besides the post preceding the vote and 155 it's all incredibly light. Why specifically are you reading Zyla as town?In post 763, Lukewarm wrote:I mean, I literally just isoed her, and I felt like she was doing a decent amount of digging into Hockey. Questioning his reads and votes and how those didn't line up for her.
As for why I'm bringing attention to Zyla over Strange, I am declining to answer that at the moment.
Preview Edit: For starters I'm not claiming "gut". Second of all, Strange had made a ton of game-relevant posts to comment on so "a lot of posts with little say" isn't really an accurate description. Up to that point in the game Strange had been saying a fair bit about Hockey and Cyrus. That's not nothing.- Save The Dragons
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Azeru
105 i like, looks like he's trying to get a better sense of hockeyfan.
237 has a case on cyrus. i don't think i realized what cyrus was at this point and i agree cyrus laid a bunch of posts that were vote worthy.
333 i like the callout to 287 but i'm not sure my answer is the weakest, i would say that i never really understood the question or why it was asked. his point about luke is interesting though i'm not sure i agree with his "too townie" logic. but his point about haschel seems a little off to me, which is why i asked about it. there's a chance they could be partners and he picked his scumbuddy to be his town read.
399 i like the reference to cyrus being anti-town
604 raises an interesting point but i do think cyrus is town, i think he's just a lot of noise at this point. i think he's calmed down a bit but his wild vote swings have been strange.
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17 i'm not sure what to make of his "vanilla town means zero fucks" post, it could come from vt or bombastic scum but i'm not sure it was a good idea to basically say "i'm not a pr don't nk me but also i'm supposed to draw the nk"
i've talked a lot about his interaction with strange
140 i agree with. @Haschel, how do you feel about Hockeyfan now?
759 i'm not focused on you i keep getting asked about you. why do you go for zyla instead of strange?
Hockeyfan
89 i guess i'm scumread for my interactions with strange here, which seems to make sense only if we're partners.
310 here is where i'm a gut read. when asked about it he points back to this post which is weird since he mainly called it a gut read.
then he just kind of pushes me over and over again 397 437
492 gives a reason which is weird because it didn't show up before and i don't think it's a strong case against me (but maybe i'm biased)
more push 539 634 654 692 but not much of a case against me still
754 i'm scum because of my posts but no posts given
I don't think i've been non-committal. I've given a few reads that have progressed as time goes on and i've voted my scum reads whether i've said them or not.aka Fenrir- Haschel Cedricson
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1) I was asked in RVS if I preferred being Town or Mafia. My reply was I prefer being vanilla town most of all. Somebody caught that but I'm too lazy to find out who.In post 766, Save The Dragons wrote:17 i'm not sure what to make of his "vanilla town means zero fucks" post, it could come from vt or bombastic scum but i'm not sure it was a good idea to basically say "i'm not a pr don't nk me but also i'm supposed to draw the nk"
i've talked a lot about his interaction with strange
140 i agree with. @Haschel, how do you feel about Hockeyfan now?
759 i'm not focused on you i keep getting asked about you. why do you go for zyla instead of strange?
2) Better, although admittedly that's partially because my two strongest scumreads have gone after him. I've skimmed his ISO but haven't done a deep dive yet like I did with the others I mentioned in my last post.
3) No comment.- Zyla
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Apologies if I haven't explained my views on Hockey as well as I thought, tbh I'm not always the best at explaining my thoughts, and that's part of why I like this game, since it's a fun way to practice. I'll try and go back and figure out what needs fleshing out, but is there a particular part of it that you think needs improvement?In post 759, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Also of note, Strange says that Zyla is a "decently good townread". No explanation is given.
So, is Zyla a good townread? She certainly has a long enough ISO that we should be able to find out. But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not. Out of all of her posts I was only able to pinpoint four that look like they are scumhunting or scumhunting-adjacent: A vote on Hockey with weak reasoning, a minor defense of Lukewarm with weak reasoning, a list of reads where the scumreads are justified with "Mostly gut read" on Strange and "I feel like I've made my case enough here" on Hockey (she has not btw).
Ye, I think that's pretty much it. Also the fact that I'm still not sure what his initial TR on Fenrir was even supposedly based on.In post 760, Lukewarm wrote:From looking at your mentions of him, I think it boils down to him avoiding your questions early in the day, and then you think his reads are not genuine because he can't back them up or outright walks them back when you press him on it
Spoiler:
That's fair, honestly until we get NK info I don't think my read on him is going to change, but it's not like it's a 100% chance he's scum either[post=#12835041]760[/post], Luke wrote: I am not sure that I saw enough in your iso to shake my own read on him, but I will give it a second look.
Pedit: haven't had a chance to look at 766+ yet, will reply to those after eating supper- Lukewarm
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I think that Zyla has not done as good of a job summarizing her read as she could, but she is definitely pushing him over posts that she thinks are scummy.In post 765, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
"Decent amount" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there; besides the post preceding the vote and 155 it's all incredibly light. Why specifically are you reading Zyla as town?In post 763, Lukewarm wrote:I mean, I literally just isoed her, and I felt like she was doing a decent amount of digging into Hockey. Questioning his reads and votes and how those didn't line up for her.
As for why I'm bringing attention to Zyla over Strange, I am declining to answer that at the moment.
Preview Edit: For starters I'm not claiming "gut". Second of all, Strange had made a ton of game-relevant posts to comment on so "a lot of posts with little say" isn't really an accurate description. Up to that point in the game Strange had been saying a fair bit about Hockey and Cyrus. That's not nothing.
Spoiler:
I also liked the way that she handled Cyrus.
I will admit that a decent part of the reason my town read on her is as confident as it is, is that I just witnessed her scum game, and she feels very different in this game.
I think my only real concern in regards to Zyla is that she seems a bit overly focused on Hockey, but I don't think that you can genuinely argue that she has not been pushing him and repeatedly questioning him over things that she found scummy.I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
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Maybe it is {HC, Strange}
That would explain his "sure, Strange is scummy, but lets transition to Zyla instead" move, and that could explain why Strange didn't have someone in a PT helping them deal with being put at e-1.I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
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Okay, let's look deeper at these posts she thinks are scummy.In post 769, Lukewarm wrote: I think that Zyla has not done as good of a job summarizing her read as she could, but she is definitely pushing him over posts that she thinks are scummy.
70 into 87, pressing him over his STD read, and calling him out for trying to back off of it
She presses him over his read of me in 155 and 157
She presses him over his read of her in 207
And then she pushes him again in 720
And then again in 757
- HockeyFan mentions that an RQS question was asked and doesn't answer it -> "I find it interesting that you mention my question but don't actually respond to either of them" and "Ignoring is NAI, but mentioning it and not responding seemed a little off to me."
I don't know how many fucks the rest of you give towards a player not answering a blatant RQS question, but I promise you your number is way too high.
- Hockey makes a weak read -> Zyla points out it is weak -> Hockey acknowledges it was weak -> Zyla attacks Hockey for backing down from a read she herself pointed out was weak in the first place.
- Hockey says he didn't feel Luke was genuine in his first few posts -> Zyla attacks something that pretty much by definition is a subjective feeling, and adds that experienced scum would be less likely to defend their partner.
While bussing is a thing, in a game with two scum it's incredibly important that the scum don't lose a member on Day 1, so this is an incredibly weak defense of Luke.
- HockeyFan mentions that Lukewarm had thrown minor suspicion onto HockeyFan along with Cyrus, although most pressure had come from me -> Zyla points out that Lukewarm wasn't thinking that Hockeyfan was scummy.
That, of course, ignores the fact that Lukewarm had indeed been applying pressure to Hockey; Luke's 84/145/147/148/151/164 are certainly adversarial enough with regards to Hockeyfan that I have no problem whatsoever with Hockeyfan interpreting it as a minor attack on him.
The remaining posts all refer to things that were said after I read Zyla's ISO but I'll indulge you anyway.
- Zyla attacks Hockey for a supposed scumslip in Hockey's very first post of the game.
I don't care about the RVS stage at all on page 2; I'm not gonna start caring on page 31. I can't analyze the rest of this post or 757 until I do the deep dive on HockeyFan.
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Dude, most of her posts are making multiple points, and you are cherry picking the ones that fit the case you are trying to make, and ignoring the others.
Like every single bullet point in 772 is terrible. You are looking at the posts, finding the weakest single sentence in the post, and then claiming that that is the primary content of the post, which is just wrong.
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In d1, how are we supposed to gather information? Random Questions seem as good a way as any, so isn't it better to answer them? And again, it's the fact that he interacted with the question but refused to answer.In post 772, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
Okay, let's look deeper at these posts she thinks are scummy.In post 769, Lukewarm wrote: I think that Zyla has not done as good of a job summarizing her read as she could, but she is definitely pushing him over posts that she thinks are scummy.
70 into 87, pressing him over his STD read, and calling him out for trying to back off of it
She presses him over his read of me in 155 and 157
She presses him over his read of her in 207
And then she pushes him again in 720
And then again in 757
- HockeyFan mentions that an RQS question was asked and doesn't answer it -> "I find it interesting that you mention my question but don't actually respond to either of them" and "Ignoring is NAI, but mentioning it and not responding seemed a little off to me."
I don't know how many fucks the rest of you give towards a player not answering a blatant RQS question, but I promise you your number is way too high.
I'm confused on this one. Could you quote the posts in question?[*]Hockey makes a weak read -> Zyla points out it is weak -> Hockey acknowledges it was weak -> Zyla attacks Hockey for backing down from a read she herself pointed out was weak in the first place.
That was a genuine question, where does the line fall between not being genuine and cracking a joke? Are jokes inherently scummy?[*]Hockey says he didn't feel Luke was genuine in his first few posts -> Zyla attacks something that pretty much by definition is a subjective feeling, and adds that experienced scum would be less likely to defend their partner.
Of course they don't want to lose a member, but Luke would know that a pageWhile bussing is a thing, in a game with two scum it's incredibly important that the scum don't lose a member on Day 1, so this is an incredibly weak defense of Luke.1vote wouldn't be important enough to warrant trying to defend their partner.
At least to me, those seemed to be clearly engagement, not attacks or a scum push. I suppose I might not have looked at it from Hockey's viewpoint well enough though[*]HockeyFan mentions that Lukewarm had thrown minor suspicion onto HockeyFan along with Cyrus, although most pressure had come from me -> Zyla points out that Lukewarm wasn't thinking that Hockeyfan was scummy.
That, of course, ignores the fact that Lukewarm had indeed been applying pressure to Hockey; Luke's 84/145/147/148/151/164 are certainly adversarial enough with regards to Hockeyfan that I have no problem whatsoever with Hockeyfan interpreting it as a minor attack on him.
That seems like a personal problem to me. Everything is important on some level, and if I see something I missed earlier while looking at an ISO, I intend to bring it up.The remaining posts all refer to things that were said after I read Zyla's ISO but I'll indulge you anyway.
[*]Zyla attacks Hockey for a supposed scumslip in Hockey's very first post of the game.
I don't care about the RVS stage at all on page 2; I'm not gonna start caring on page 31. I can't analyze the rest of this post or 757 until I do the deep dive on HockeyFan.[/list]
All of that is weak as hell. - Zyla
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