Newbie 2068 | Lofi Beats to Play Mafia To | Game Over

[JamesTheNames]

"no comment yet"

This isn't town sided.
Combined with 139
The unnecessary tone in 88 and 99
I'm not stubborn enough.

UNVOTE: Val89
VOTE: GrandpaMo

this is a really weird pivot xD

this should make me town LMAO

VFP townreading me, cook scumreading me, Zyla scumreading VFP + Grandpa then pivoting onto me then as soon Zyla pivots, you pivot LMAO.

I think scum lies between u and Zyla could be both.

dw i will anaylyze every maniupulative post that u have misunderstood (half i believe)

You're attempting to pocket Val89, with non-sensical justifications for town cred.
Not to mention there are different reasons for me and Zyla scumreading you. It's also weird you referred to yourself in the third person.
Also it doesn't make you town.

Pocket Val?? Wtf? You should see me trying to pocket VFP LOL. At the most that is who I would be pocketing if I were scum LOL. But Val someone who is in my null read? "It's also weird you referred to yourself in the third person.
Also it doesn't make you town." Again what is this? I literally do this shit in all my games LOL. Just read my meta at this point because it feels like you are trying to find every reason to scumread me for.

Meta isn't a valid reason to read anybody any direction.

[JamesTheNames]

"no comment yet"

This isn't town sided.
Combined with 139
The unnecessary tone in 88 and 99
I'm not stubborn enough.

UNVOTE: Val89
VOTE: GrandpaMo

Also something really funny to point out is that you said you would never move off ur vote off Val but you just did and contradicted yourself in post 85.

Funny, I don't remember saying never or ever or anything like that. You going to bend words the entirety of this game?

This is literally in post 85 where you said "I'm not moving my vote."

???

What part of 85 do I say I will never move my vote?
Or is it the case (it very obviously is) that it means at that point in time?
You have nothing, stop bending words.

[GrandpaMo]

Yea, that's why I said bad reaction because it was a weird omgus. I don't fully scumread you but you are like the only one who I see that could be possible scum. Also I agree with T3 and I do think your introduction is actually towny.

Can you just confirm if I'm reading right that both of those "yous" are at me? I do agree that I look bad if James flips green, but can you explain a little more why I'm the only possible scum? Besides that you said my post with the most content so far was towny, I'm personally concerned at the number of people we just don't have a lot of information about at this point.

I think it can be very productive. I don't think there are many more efficient ways of getting reads day 1. You have no power role reads, no night kills, no eliminations. You can't use hindsight to justify applying pressure onto somebody either. However tunnelling somebody, especially one who you don't have a town read on, be it null or scum instead, applies more pressure than splitting your attention between multiple people, goes further than split attention pressure would apply, and in general makes the game easier to solve.

You have to dig for treasure, you have a shovel and it could only dig so much, what happens if you split the shovel between multiple holes, maybe you didn't dig deep enough to get the treasure, whereas if you dug as deep as you could on one hole, you'd know if the treasure was there or not. In this analogy shovel = time, treasure = solid read, multiple holes = people.

Also I should probably have clarified instead of making the post so short, it doesn't necessarily mean tunnelling for the entire remaining 8~ days, just for a period of the remaining 8~ days.

I think maybe we then just had different interpretations of "tunnelling." I was taking it to mean, roughly, "lock onto target with full confidence and push as hard as you can for as long as you can." With the treasure metaphor, I agree for the same reason that I think having a vote somewhere is more productive than not voting at all.


Question for

Zyla

regarding your Val read. Does your scum-lean on Grandpa make you think Val is more likely to be town, given all of the back and forth that they had? I ask partially because I have them as flipped. It doesn't read like scum v scum to me.

no im talking bout zyla here sorry nd yea u right. no comment yet. i would just like to redact that info rn, im looking at something rn

"no comment yet"

Yes I am looking at a specific interaction happening. If I spoil the interaction and it happens to be scum -- Scum know how to coordinate now with each other against me hence why I redacted. This shouldn't be alignment indicative only usually towards EoD or even towards the end of the game where you are trying to garner more specific info.

Unfortunately, redactions aren't particularly something you can do in this game, so I implore you to explain. I'm assuming right now you have some form of scum proof against Zyla. If so, why wait?

This is just something for you to fall back on when you have a bogus claim in the future. If you're not scum trying to place what you think is an easy elimination onto Zyla, then what is it you're hiding? As town you should have something right?

I'm calling the bluff, you have nothing here.

I did it my first newbie game. And I will do it again. Redactions are an amazing utility tool to draw away any distractions -- It only works on the proper time though.

It should be obvious. I already slipped it once while talking to you. It's the interaction right now. Between you + Zyla (Mostly), VFP + T3, Cook + Astro

[JamesTheNames]

Quote walls have started.
What makes you think witholding a read you have or an idea is town sided?

[GrandpaMo]

"no comment yet"

This isn't town sided.
Combined with 139
The unnecessary tone in 88 and 99
I'm not stubborn enough.

UNVOTE: Val89
VOTE: GrandpaMo

this is a really weird pivot xD

this should make me town LMAO

VFP townreading me, cook scumreading me, Zyla scumreading VFP + Grandpa then pivoting onto me then as soon Zyla pivots, you pivot LMAO.

I think scum lies between u and Zyla could be both.

dw i will anaylyze every maniupulative post that u have misunderstood (half i believe)

You're attempting to pocket Val89, with non-sensical justifications for town cred.
Not to mention there are different reasons for me and Zyla scumreading you. It's also weird you referred to yourself in the third person.
Also it doesn't make you town.

Pocket Val?? Wtf? You should see me trying to pocket VFP LOL. At the most that is who I would be pocketing if I were scum LOL. But Val someone who is in my null read? "It's also weird you referred to yourself in the third person.
Also it doesn't make you town." Again what is this? I literally do this shit in all my games LOL. Just read my meta at this point because it feels like you are trying to find every reason to scumread me for.

Meta isn't a valid reason to read anybody any direction.

?? Why are trying to say that is a bad thing? Well now to let you know since obviously you aren't going to utilize that function. I have done that. don't scumread me for it if you aren't going to the time to actually cooperate. I disagree with your statement and I think you can garner a lot of info regardless of it being AI.

[GrandpaMo]

Quote walls have started.
What makes you think withholding a read you have or an idea is town sided?

What makes it scumsided? I mean yes, you can bring up the point that it is anti-town to redact info from town. But knowing me, and my experience and my meta on how I play; it would bring that question up as "Why would I do that as scum".

I am town -- And withholding info that would seem beneficiary to scum would only make my logic and perhaps alstro's (using this as an example for other possible town) logic fail as well because I feel like me and him have this intuitive thought that you or zyla could be scum.

2nd; It wasn't an idea nor a read -- It was more of a thought that wouldn't have benefitted town nor disadvantaged town. It was something that was in my head and was going to further analyze it after more interactions happen. I literally said that. I literally said I was going to fully analyze that post but now the interactions that came from me has been spoiled and town may conform and scum may cisconform to create havoc.

[GrandpaMo]

"no comment yet"

This isn't town sided.
Combined with 139
The unnecessary tone in 88 and 99
I'm not stubborn enough.

UNVOTE: Val89
VOTE: GrandpaMo

Also something really funny to point out is that you said you would never move off ur vote off Val but you just did and contradicted yourself in post 85.

Funny, I don't remember saying never or ever or anything like that. You going to bend words the entirety of this game?

This is literally in post 85 where you said "I'm not moving my vote."

???

What part of 85 do I say I will never move my vote?
Or is it the case (it very obviously is) that it means at that point in time?
You have nothing, stop bending words.

I don't know if that is what you originally meant? But it is quoted in the text, and what other meaning there is other than implying it as should, "I am not moving my vote" -- Which should signal to a normal person that that means they won't pivot off the vote for a long time. I see what you mean though but like I said, from my perspective there was no other implication other than that. You are just now tryning to use that misunderstanding from MY side and scumcase it on me. Blatant read; more of basic in my opinion. You knew it was probably a misunderstanding and you didn't mind to correct me possibly. Or maybe you didn't; then what you said, still stands. Heck, you even pointed it out multiple times in the thread that you were implying to not move your vote. And val had to respond to that.

[GrandpaMo]

James. I will like to lay back off you for now since I have successfully answered everything you may have + giving more insight into your reasonings, and debunking some of your flaws / possible manipulation. (I say possible because if you were scum this would be you manipulating context, I mean shit, I already debunked your context thing, and you just decided to deflect that with another thing based on meta? Idek, it looks you tried lol) But if you aren't scum, then these would be flaws.

This usually happens in a newbie game where a TvT occurs and it becomes aggressive -- but once you lay off, you get to see more interactions happening.

Hm. I want to explore this for now.

VOTE: Cook

[GrandpaMo]

Also, I very much dislike how James just left this conversation. This looks bad for you, James.

[GrandpaMo]

I think cook is the only one that should be reasonably scumreading me as possible town.

This is because cook was the only one to garner a read thru prior context of my info etc while both Zyla + James, got it from pivot changes? I don't even know why the pivot had happened but that pivot results in one scum being in between them. I don't know who at this point -- hence why they are strong null reads, leaning scum. They both play the same way. Nyla, if you are town, then I probably would just talk to you about something you do in post game. James as well, you are both newbs, and you play well. James!scum wouldn't surprise me.

Only people I have payed attention to was T3, VFP, Zyla, and Alstro. (Then recently James). I would probably need to reread the game.

[T3]

wait i think alstro is scum lol

nvm i think we vote james today and if they flip green, i think ur scum

wtf
doublewtf
VOTE: Grandpa

[Val89]

Another wall incoming. Sorry not sorry.

I'm ready to give my initial reads on the rest of the game.

Spoiler: alstroemerial:

Town. My initial and overall reaction to seeing their contributions to the game overnight was 'finally!'. I know it could be fairly easy to rock up fashionably late, post a list of reads now you have something juicy to analyse and soak up the towncred, but it feels genuine; it mirrors the approach taken by Town!James in 2064, so I know there is precedent for newbtown to act that way, and I generally agree with the reads given, as you will see.

There is only one thing that pings me:

Does your scum-lean on Grandpa make you think Val is more likely to be town, given all of the back and forth that they had?

As you will see in my Gandpa read, I'm not really convinced the "back-and-forth" actually turns out in the end to be anything of substance. I think it's very clear my focus up to the point of Zyla's reads has been James, and Zyla has James as a Townlean. I feel if the positions were switched, I would be thinking what the

James

flip would mean for my alignment, and how to tie Zyla into that scenario more than I would Grandpa. Alstroemerial has me and Grandpa as both TRs at present, so the later assertion they think we are flipped (I think that means of opposite alignments?) adds an interesting dimension.

Spoiler: GrandpaMo:

So, continuing with Grandpa; I'll be honest, I am struggling this one. There is a lot of content to digest, which I much prefer over the 'active lurking' I would characterise some of the other play as, but it comes across, as they admit themselves, as confused - it may well not be deliberate, but it certainly isn't helping town.

Look at the full context please. Smh. The answer you are looking for should be within the conversation. I will give you a hint; the reason relates to a misunderstanding we BOTH had. (I am assuming)

Context for the quote: Grandpa is addressing James, who had taken issue with Grandpa giving me towncred for my #63

I feel like I should be able to understand what Grandpa is refering to here, but I don't. I thought it was clear and obvious my #25 and #27 were non-serious RVS stage posts, in eactly the same way T3's #34 was, but since at least 2 players replied as if it was serious, and a third has hinted they took it that way, I have to admit that perhaps that assumption was wrong. In retrospect, I may modify my approach in future but I still stand by the fact I think we got more out of it than "hello i'm val, lets have fun vote: T3" would have.

Grandpa says in 49 that they are unsure if I am serious, but then assumed I was and proceeded to give an analysis as if I were. I clarified I wasn't being serious, and Grandpa rows it back, saying we were obviously BOTH labouring under a misunderstanding, but as far as I see - only Grandpa misunderstood my intent. It then gets waved around as if James is missing something obvious for not seeing what we both missed. I'm actually inclined to agree with James here, despite my read on them, in that I don't think my response warranted a townread in isolation. Grandpa read me as scummy based on #27, and my explanation might have placated them enough to discard that, but that should have put me back at null, right? Making two RVS posts should have been NAI at that point.

Then there is a VFP townread, which Grandpa confirms is serious in the first line of #49. The last post that VFP makes up to getting that townread is #33, and I see nothing to justify such a read that early. I agree, taking everything else since then that VFP does read town, but I don't see how Grandpa reaches that conclusion as fast as he does.

wait i think alstro is scum lol

This is another read I have no idea where it comes from. I'm trying to get into Grandpas head, assuming he is town, then assuming he is scum, and reading what alstroemerial had contributed until then, and I don't see it at all. I think Grandpa is going to have to chime in with some more here.

I am aware that, so far that I have done nothing but point out inconsistencies, so the overall read I am about to give - a townlean - might seem at odds with that, but my gut says overall the approach and town feels towny. I think some of my misgivings come from the confused presentation rather than content, but there are some actual issues I have there - If it a further misunderstanding-type situation, Grandpa might clear some of this up with a followup, and I expect them do so.

Spoiler: VFP

It's all rather vague, and I think we ought to start seeing some more justification for what is being spit out, but I agree what we do have from them looks, taken together, more like a slightly-too passive town game than it does scum. The interactions between Grandpa and VFP are interesting too, and I think VFP was a bit too quick to read Grandpa as town too, even if we eventually come to the same conclusions, so that is on my radar. I disagree with the read on Zyla, but there is some justification I can find somewhat reasonable.

I don't read anything into the no lim vote - it's seems basically the same as a vote on a random person, provided that, like that random vote, its going to be quickly moved on to an actual scum read. I do expect that vote to go somewhere constructive soon, at which point, it's had the exact same effect as any other temporary RVS vote, and I'll treat it the same way. I don't give Zyla scum points for pushing it, because it does seem unexpected, but I'm not giving her town points for dropping it in the same VFP has, either.

I have something else too, but ongoing games. Townlean.

Spoiler: T3

Scumlean. Reading the ISO, he might as well not be in the game, in my opinion. I don't see anything of substance apart from this:

I don't post anything over 5 lines unless I'm scum.

Anyone else read this as "I'm getting in my excuse early as to why I can't flesh out my arguments, so don't bother asking me for too much details". Seems like a way to play rather anti-town, while having it passed off as just being 'meta'. I don't buy that argument at all, and its enough to scumlean rather than null this one. It also makes me wonder what those who have townlean'd T3 see that I don't, because if it wasn't for that, this one would be a null for me.

Spoiler: Cook

Scumlean. This one seems like even less substance than T3, in honestly, and as alstroemerial points out; It's obvious they are engaging with the game on some level, but giving us nothing until #123, when we get:

TR VFP
SL James
SR GrandpaMo, Val89, MiniMegabyte

WTH? How in everything that is holy does MiniMegabyte warrant an inclusion on that list over Zyla, alstroemerial and T3, and a strong read at that?

Spoiler: MiniMegabyte

I say this, because she is CLEARY a null read at this point. I place no importance on her reaction to my post, because while I think it was obvious I was joking, I can understand why, if you are new to the game and you see the first substantial post of the game on it's surface shading you, you might respond instinctively, but the posts that are there basically summed up "Hi!" and "Vals post about me is fucking ridiculous", which of course it is, and so there is nothing here to work with, at all. I can't make anything other than a null read, and I fail to see how anyone else can do anything different.

Spoiler: Zyla

Scumread. After Cook, we have another player posting a read list with little justification, which on examination, I can't get my head around in the slightest. I agree on MiniMegabyte being null. For me alstroemerial is any easy townlean read at this stage for both town and scum, but the rest of it, we are basically diametrically opposed.

Let's start with T3. She reads him as notscum based on meta based on two posts, which is basically a obviously non-serious fake claim in response to my equally non-serious RVS vote. How is that alignment indicative in the slightest, even if you have a huge sample of T3s games to work with? T3 himself points this out, and Zyla rows back on it, and agrees its rubbish. Nothing else passes between them, and T3 continues to make non-posts, but he still ends up making the list as a Townlean? Not following, sorry.

Then there is the James thing. I don't think anyone is going to be the slightest bit surprised when I give my read of James as scum, and even though his vote has moved at the time I am writing this, I think we are all expecting to see my name in red when James posts his list, if he gets around to it. This can't have escaped Zyla's attention. I'm reading James as scum, and I've said explicitly that's a pretty hard read, and Zyla reads him as townlean, no explanation given - but choses not to pipe up and explain why?

And then I am null (or rather @Not enough info'). They must have taken a position on the Me V James push here - they say that read James town, so Zyla either thinks it's TvT, and I'm scooting off in the wrong direction hard, or I am scum pushing someone she thinks is town. In either case, I can't see how you hold me as 'not enough info' in the same vein as MiniMegabyte. Town!Zyla seeing either another town player pushing on someone they thing is town, or seeing someone they think is scum pushing on a town read surely says SOMETHING about that by now, and the fact it is being left as the giant elephant in the room and glossed over reads to me as newscum scared to either get too closely associated with her partner, or get accused of a chainsaw defense if the come after me, notwithstanding that coming after me is something I would expect town!Zyla to do if she reads it as SvT, or at least think about telling me to knock it off if she gets TvT vibes.

I'm hoping someone can explain the difference between a "null" read and "not enough info", because to me, they are the same thing.

Spoiler: James

And so to my strongest Scumread. I'm sticking with it. I'm trying to read everything he has posted since with a good dose of benefit of the doubt. I'm going searching for reasons to believe this is a Town v Town situation, and I'm not seeing it. I'm only getting further entranced in my read every post. Everything I said in #72 still applies, and I haven't been satisfied by any of the explanation that has been provided. Since then, there is more:

First of all townreading someone who didn't vote anybody and rather wants to No-Elim.

Clearly, he means VFP here. Can someone point out where, up to now, I've given a read on VFP? The only place I've mentioned VFP at all until now was my very first post, which EVEN IF, and its a big IF, James took that I was being dead serious reading MiniMegaByte as Scum, VFP as town, and then voting for T3; I have already clarified, twice by that point, that is it wasn't.

I personally don't think meta is a genuine reason to vote somebody ever

Meta isn't a valid reason to read anybody any direction.

You know, it's funny. Game #2064 had several reads formed on meta, and yet Town!James doesn't make that argument there. You say that you don't like judging people on self-given meta, like T3 delivered in this game, but you certainly seem prepared to listen to meta reads of more experienced players in that game, without comment that you don't think that's a valid way to form reads - unless (like in this game) there is one directed towards you.

I intend to go digging a little further into that game here, because I think this may well end up being pretty damning, but in any case, my read against you in no longer "meta", is the sense that it is based off another previous game, because you say what I was building my case off explicitly here.

What makes you think witholding a read you have or an idea is town sided?

Exactly. This is precisely what I was trying to put across in my quotes from your previous games. James the player KNOWs that withholding a read or idea is anti-town.

Oh well. I am satisfied with my vote.

I'm still happy with my vote.

Why're you so desperate to leave the RVS stage?

I'm getting the distinct "I'm going to imply I have something about Val, but I'm not sharing" vibes here, along with the "I'm happy to keep the game in this low information RVS stage for as long as a I can, even though we have something real to discuss". Thinking about it, that doesn't tally with your (apparently) taking my reads in #27 seriously either. We know you believe that to be anti-town behavior because you told us so, when you started pushing on GrandPa for it, so why would a theoretical Town!James engage in it this game? Ocams Razor: It's because you rolled scum.

multiple holes = people

In other news, this made my chuckle far more than it ought. I realise I am still such a child.

Conclusion:

alstroemerial

,

VFP

,

GrandpaMo

,

MiniMegabyte

,

T3

,

Cook

,

Zyla

,

JamesTheNames

.

By the way, if you really are colourblind James, and that wasn't a clumsy attempt at a fake breadcrumb, let me know which colour is easier to differentiate over green for my town leans.

[JamesTheNames]

Also, I very much dislike how James just left this conversation. This looks bad for you, James.

Hold up. Wait a minute. You're giving me scum points, For Sleeping? How desperate are you?

[JamesTheNames]

By the way, if you really are colourblind James, and that wasn't a clumsy attempt at a fake breadcrumb, let me know which colour is easier to differentiate over green for my town leans.

I found a FireFox addon, so don't worry about that anymore I've sorted it but thank you.

[Val89]

Hold up. Wait a minute. You're giving me scum points, For Sleeping? How desperate are you?

Yeah, I don't think we need to go reading in to James activity patterns to find scumtells here, there is enough without that. As long as it gets dealt with now, I don't think the way GrandPa V James was left is AI in any way in either direction.

[T3]

Another wall incoming. Sorry not sorry.

I'm ready to give my initial reads on the rest of the game.

Spoiler: alstroemerial:

Town. My initial and overall reaction to seeing their contributions to the game overnight was 'finally!'. I know it could be fairly easy to rock up fashionably late, post a list of reads now you have something juicy to analyse and soak up the towncred, but it feels genuine; it mirrors the approach taken by Town!James in 2064, so I know there is precedent for newbtown to act that way, and I generally agree with the reads given, as you will see.

There is only one thing that pings me:

Does your scum-lean on Grandpa make you think Val is more likely to be town, given all of the back and forth that they had?

As you will see in my Gandpa read, I'm not really convinced the "back-and-forth" actually turns out in the end to be anything of substance. I think it's very clear my focus up to the point of Zyla's reads has been James, and Zyla has James as a Townlean. I feel if the positions were switched, I would be thinking what the

James

flip would mean for my alignment, and how to tie Zyla into that scenario more than I would Grandpa. Alstroemerial has me and Grandpa as both TRs at present, so the later assertion they think we are flipped (I think that means of opposite alignments?) adds an interesting dimension.

Spoiler: GrandpaMo:

So, continuing with Grandpa; I'll be honest, I am struggling this one. There is a lot of content to digest, which I much prefer over the 'active lurking' I would characterise some of the other play as, but it comes across, as they admit themselves, as confused - it may well not be deliberate, but it certainly isn't helping town.

Look at the full context please. Smh. The answer you are looking for should be within the conversation. I will give you a hint; the reason relates to a misunderstanding we BOTH had. (I am assuming)

Context for the quote: Grandpa is addressing James, who had taken issue with Grandpa giving me towncred for my #63

I feel like I should be able to understand what Grandpa is refering to here, but I don't. I thought it was clear and obvious my #25 and #27 were non-serious RVS stage posts, in eactly the same way T3's #34 was, but since at least 2 players replied as if it was serious, and a third has hinted they took it that way, I have to admit that perhaps that assumption was wrong. In retrospect, I may modify my approach in future but I still stand by the fact I think we got more out of it than "hello i'm val, lets have fun vote: T3" would have.

Grandpa says in 49 that they are unsure if I am serious, but then assumed I was and proceeded to give an analysis as if I were. I clarified I wasn't being serious, and Grandpa rows it back, saying we were obviously BOTH labouring under a misunderstanding, but as far as I see - only Grandpa misunderstood my intent. It then gets waved around as if James is missing something obvious for not seeing what we both missed. I'm actually inclined to agree with James here, despite my read on them, in that I don't think my response warranted a townread in isolation. Grandpa read me as scummy based on #27, and my explanation might have placated them enough to discard that, but that should have put me back at null, right? Making two RVS posts should have been NAI at that point.

Then there is a VFP townread, which Grandpa confirms is serious in the first line of #49. The last post that VFP makes up to getting that townread is #33, and I see nothing to justify such a read that early. I agree, taking everything else since then that VFP does read town, but I don't see how Grandpa reaches that conclusion as fast as he does.

wait i think alstro is scum lol

This is another read I have no idea where it comes from. I'm trying to get into Grandpas head, assuming he is town, then assuming he is scum, and reading what alstroemerial had contributed until then, and I don't see it at all. I think Grandpa is going to have to chime in with some more here.

I am aware that, so far that I have done nothing but point out inconsistencies, so the overall read I am about to give - a townlean - might seem at odds with that, but my gut says overall the approach and town feels towny. I think some of my misgivings come from the confused presentation rather than content, but there are some actual issues I have there - If it a further misunderstanding-type situation, Grandpa might clear some of this up with a followup, and I expect them do so.

Spoiler: VFP

It's all rather vague, and I think we ought to start seeing some more justification for what is being spit out, but I agree what we do have from them looks, taken together, more like a slightly-too passive town game than it does scum. The interactions between Grandpa and VFP are interesting too, and I think VFP was a bit too quick to read Grandpa as town too, even if we eventually come to the same conclusions, so that is on my radar. I disagree with the read on Zyla, but there is some justification I can find somewhat reasonable.

I don't read anything into the no lim vote - it's seems basically the same as a vote on a random person, provided that, like that random vote, its going to be quickly moved on to an actual scum read. I do expect that vote to go somewhere constructive soon, at which point, it's had the exact same effect as any other temporary RVS vote, and I'll treat it the same way. I don't give Zyla scum points for pushing it, because it does seem unexpected, but I'm not giving her town points for dropping it in the same VFP has, either.

I have something else too, but ongoing games. Townlean.

Spoiler: T3

Scumlean. Reading the ISO, he might as well not be in the game, in my opinion. I don't see anything of substance apart from this:

I don't post anything over 5 lines unless I'm scum.

Anyone else read this as "I'm getting in my excuse early as to why I can't flesh out my arguments, so don't bother asking me for too much details". Seems like a way to play rather anti-town, while having it passed off as just being 'meta'. I don't buy that argument at all, and its enough to scumlean rather than null this one. It also makes me wonder what those who have townlean'd T3 see that I don't, because if it wasn't for that, this one would be a null for me.

Spoiler: Cook

Scumlean. This one seems like even less substance than T3, in honestly, and as alstroemerial points out; It's obvious they are engaging with the game on some level, but giving us nothing until #123, when we get:

TR VFP
SL James
SR GrandpaMo, Val89, MiniMegabyte

WTH? How in everything that is holy does MiniMegabyte warrant an inclusion on that list over Zyla, alstroemerial and T3, and a strong read at that?

Spoiler: MiniMegabyte

I say this, because she is CLEARY a null read at this point. I place no importance on her reaction to my post, because while I think it was obvious I was joking, I can understand why, if you are new to the game and you see the first substantial post of the game on it's surface shading you, you might respond instinctively, but the posts that are there basically summed up "Hi!" and "Vals post about me is fucking ridiculous", which of course it is, and so there is nothing here to work with, at all. I can't make anything other than a null read, and I fail to see how anyone else can do anything different.

Spoiler: Zyla

Scumread. After Cook, we have another player posting a read list with little justification, which on examination, I can't get my head around in the slightest. I agree on MiniMegabyte being null. For me alstroemerial is any easy townlean read at this stage for both town and scum, but the rest of it, we are basically diametrically opposed.

Let's start with T3. She reads him as notscum based on meta based on two posts, which is basically a obviously non-serious fake claim in response to my equally non-serious RVS vote. How is that alignment indicative in the slightest, even if you have a huge sample of T3s games to work with? T3 himself points this out, and Zyla rows back on it, and agrees its rubbish. Nothing else passes between them, and T3 continues to make non-posts, but he still ends up making the list as a Townlean? Not following, sorry.

Then there is the James thing. I don't think anyone is going to be the slightest bit surprised when I give my read of James as scum, and even though his vote has moved at the time I am writing this, I think we are all expecting to see my name in red when James posts his list, if he gets around to it. This can't have escaped Zyla's attention. I'm reading James as scum, and I've said explicitly that's a pretty hard read, and Zyla reads him as townlean, no explanation given - but choses not to pipe up and explain why?

And then I am null (or rather @Not enough info'). They must have taken a position on the Me V James push here - they say that read James town, so Zyla either thinks it's TvT, and I'm scooting off in the wrong direction hard, or I am scum pushing someone she thinks is town. In either case, I can't see how you hold me as 'not enough info' in the same vein as MiniMegabyte. Town!Zyla seeing either another town player pushing on someone they thing is town, or seeing someone they think is scum pushing on a town read surely says SOMETHING about that by now, and the fact it is being left as the giant elephant in the room and glossed over reads to me as newscum scared to either get too closely associated with her partner, or get accused of a chainsaw defense if the come after me, notwithstanding that coming after me is something I would expect town!Zyla to do if she reads it as SvT, or at least think about telling me to knock it off if she gets TvT vibes.

I'm hoping someone can explain the difference between a "null" read and "not enough info", because to me, they are the same thing.

Spoiler: James

And so to my strongest Scumread. I'm sticking with it. I'm trying to read everything he has posted since with a good dose of benefit of the doubt. I'm going searching for reasons to believe this is a Town v Town situation, and I'm not seeing it. I'm only getting further entranced in my read every post. Everything I said in #72 still applies, and I haven't been satisfied by any of the explanation that has been provided. Since then, there is more:

First of all townreading someone who didn't vote anybody and rather wants to No-Elim.

Clearly, he means VFP here. Can someone point out where, up to now, I've given a read on VFP? The only place I've mentioned VFP at all until now was my very first post, which EVEN IF, and its a big IF, James took that I was being dead serious reading MiniMegaByte as Scum, VFP as town, and then voting for T3; I have already clarified, twice by that point, that is it wasn't.

I personally don't think meta is a genuine reason to vote somebody ever

Meta isn't a valid reason to read anybody any direction.

You know, it's funny. Game #2064 had several reads formed on meta, and yet Town!James doesn't make that argument there. You say that you don't like judging people on self-given meta, like T3 delivered in this game, but you certainly seem prepared to listen to meta reads of more experienced players in that game, without comment that you don't think that's a valid way to form reads - unless (like in this game) there is one directed towards you.

I intend to go digging a little further into that game here, because I think this may well end up being pretty damning, but in any case, my read against you in no longer "meta", is the sense that it is based off another previous game, because you say what I was building my case off explicitly here.

What makes you think witholding a read you have or an idea is town sided?

Exactly. This is precisely what I was trying to put across in my quotes from your previous games. James the player KNOWs that withholding a read or idea is anti-town.

Oh well. I am satisfied with my vote.

I'm still happy with my vote.

Why're you so desperate to leave the RVS stage?

I'm getting the distinct "I'm going to imply I have something about Val, but I'm not sharing" vibes here, along with the "I'm happy to keep the game in this low information RVS stage for as long as a I can, even though we have something real to discuss". Thinking about it, that doesn't tally with your (apparently) taking my reads in #27 seriously either. We know you believe that to be anti-town behavior because you told us so, when you started pushing on GrandPa for it, so why would a theoretical Town!James engage in it this game? Ocams Razor: It's because you rolled scum.

multiple holes = people

In other news, this made my chuckle far more than it ought. I realise I am still such a child.

Conclusion:

alstroemerial

,

VFP

,

GrandpaMo

,

MiniMegabyte

,

T3

,

Cook

,

Zyla

,

JamesTheNames

.

By the way, if you really are colourblind James, and that wasn't a clumsy attempt at a fake breadcrumb, let me know which colour is easier to differentiate over green for my town leans.

It was kind of a joke-y obvservation about my meta.

[Val89]

Anyone else read this as "I'm getting in my excuse early as to why I can't flesh out my arguments, so don't bother asking me for too much details". Seems like a way to play rather anti-town, while having it passed off as just being 'meta'

It was kind of a joke-y obvservation about my meta.

Yes, I am aware that how the surface reading was supposed to be taken, and if that's all true, it just means it's another one of those non-posts that serve only to make it look like you are saying SOMETHING whilst actually not.

But, what does it mean for the game? If you do end up posting more than 5 lines this game, what do you expect us to read from it? Or are you making a commitment now that you never will, and so it's a non-issue? If that's the case, how will you deal with the situation where actually you do have a fair bit to say, without breaking your self-imposed meta?

It pings me as scummy for the reason I quote, if it's just left as is. If its not scummy, lets publicly deal with the ramifications of that statement now so I can write it off and move on.

[Zyla]

If I'm not mistaken, the only legal way to take 74 is as a joke, otherwise I think it falls under a trust tell

@Mod, can I get confirmation on if I'm correct with that?

Spoiler: Zyla

A)

After Cook, we have another player posting a read list with little justification, which on examination, I can't get my head around in the slightest. I agree on MiniMegabyte being null. For me alstroemerial is any easy townlean read at this stage for both town and scum, but the rest of it, we are basically diametrically opposed.

B)

Let's start with T3. She reads him as notscum based on meta based on two posts, which is basically a obviously non-serious fake claim in response to my equally non-serious RVS vote. How is that alignment indicative in the slightest, even if you have a huge sample of T3s games to work with? T3 himself points this out, and Zyla rows back on it, and agrees its rubbish. Nothing else passes between them, and T3 continues to make non-posts, but he still ends up making the list as a Townlean? Not following, sorry.

C)

Then there is the James thing. I don't think anyone is going to be the slightest bit surprised when I give my read of James as scum, and even though his vote has moved at the time I am writing this, I think we are all expecting to see my name in red when James posts his list, if he gets around to it. This can't have escaped Zyla's attention. I'm reading James as scum, and I've said explicitly that's a pretty hard read, and Zyla reads him as townlean, no explanation given - but choses not to pipe up and explain why?

D)

And then I am null (or rather @Not enough info'). They must have taken a position on the Me V James push here - they say that read James town, so Zyla either thinks it's TvT, and I'm scooting off in the wrong direction hard, or I am scum pushing someone she thinks is town. In either case, I can't see how you hold me as 'not enough info' in the same vein as MiniMegabyte. Town!Zyla seeing either another town player pushing on someone they thing is town, or seeing someone they think is scum pushing on a town read surely says SOMETHING about that by now, and the fact it is being left as the giant elephant in the room and glossed over reads to me as newscum scared to either get too closely associated with her partner, or get accused of a chainsaw defense if the come after me, notwithstanding that coming after me is something I would expect town!Zyla to do if she reads it as SvT, or at least think about telling me to knock it off if she gets TvT vibes.

E)

I'm hoping someone can explain the difference between a "null" read and "not enough info", because to me, they are the same thing.

A) That's fine, we're different players, we look for different things, the important thing isn't that we read people the same, but that we work together

B) I had a gut feeling that he was town based on what I've seen of him before, in a game that we played and meta I read for that game (as that's what got him), it wasn't much to go off of, but I was curious to how he'd respond if I acted like it was clear cut evidence. I liked his response, which is where the actual town-lean comes from

C) I personally don't read anything scummy from his posts so far

D) Most of the time, I would rather sit back and try to get some information from the interaction than tell you to knock it off. I may step in if I see some logical inconsistencies, or if it causes a wagon to be started, but it's good to get the information I can

E) "Null" means "I see equal ways to read this person as town that I do to read them as scum", whereas "Not enough info" means "I don't have enough info to declare a read yet"

[VFP]

Zyla you need to ease up more my friend.
T3 isn't one to break rules.

Even if its true, there's no backing to it so there's no trust tell.
But it just looks like a joke to me.

[Zyla]

? Nono, I'm saying that it is a joke, and that Val's questioning about it can go nowhere because of that

[Val89]

? Nono, I'm saying that it is a joke, and that Val's questioning about it can go nowhere because of that

Hard disagree. T3 can't very well say "no, I am serious, and I intend to continue with it", the "it's a joke part" is given and already stated.

Its a trust tell if its something that applies

across

games. T3 can, and should, tell us now if he intends to rely on it

this game

, and if so, how far he acknowledges that will affect gameplay.

[JamesTheNames]

D) Most of the time, I would rather sit back and try to get some information from the interaction than tell you to knock it off. I may step in if I see some logical inconsistencies, or if it causes a wagon to be started, but it's good to get the information I can

Being in the forefront is the most fun.

[Val89]

James. I will like to lay back off you for now since I have successfully answered everything you may have + giving more insight into your reasonings, and debunking some of your flaws / possible manipulation.

(...snip...)

This usually happens in a newbie game where a TvT occurs and it becomes aggressive -- but once you lay off, you get to see more interactions happening.

Disagree. If I read what you are trying to say correctly, if you get the impression James is throwing shade at you, the fact "have successfully answered everything [James] may have" is irrelevant. If you have cause to believe James is scum, and alluding to 'possible manipulation' certainly seems that way; then it would seem to me the play is to keep that pleasure up until

James

has answered everything from

you

to your satisfaction. We have possible scum in our sights. I am aware there is a scum partner out there, but in my opinion the continued pressure on one of the scum partners is more likely to draw the other other than pivot elsewhere, risk landing on a townie and completely releasing the pleasure from both scum partners inadvertently.

I think cook is the only one that should be reasonably scumreading me as possible town.

This is because cook was the only one to garner a read thru prior context of my info etc while both Zyla + James, got it from pivot changes?

I am having difficulty parsing this comment. Are you saying only

Cook

has good reason read a Town!Grandpa, and everyone else should be reading you as null or scum at this point, or that you can understand why a Town!Cook might read you as scum, but can't understand why anyone else would?

[Cook]

TR VFP
SL James
SR GrandpaMo, Val89, MiniMegabyte

i forgot u were someone in this game

can u explain ur reads?

I modded for Scum!VFP. Play here isn't indicative of that play there.
At the time, JamesTheNames gave me

vibes

of scumminess, same with Mo and Val.

Low content and in a quick burst from MM.

[Val89]

A) That's fine, we're different players, we look for different things, the important thing isn't that we read people the same, but that we work together

I'm not expecting for our reads to match, and I don't scum read anyone purely for having different reads. I read VFP as leantown, and VFP reads you town, for example. I see VFPs explanation for it - that he considers a scum!Zyla would continue to prosecute the "no-lim" vote further than you did - and while I disagree with it, it seems a reasonable case for Town!VFP to make.

On the other had, we have the exact opposite read on {T3, James, VFP and Grandpa}, and a different read on Cook, too - over fully half the field, and the essential difference is I can't game out the justifications you might have because you haven't shared them. I am aware the same applies to some of the other players also, and that's on my radar also.

I had a gut feeling that he was town based on what I've seen of him before, in a game that we played and meta I read for that game (as that's what got him), it wasn't much to go off of, but I was curious to how he'd respond if I acted like it was clear cut evidence. I liked his response, which is where the actual town-lean comes from

I'm reading your ISOs side by side, and I don't see it. Which post of his gave that feeling; which post of yours is the one where you act like its clear cut evidence, and which post does he give the response you like?
This seems, on the surface, to be a reasonable explanation, so if you gave give me those links, I may well find some measure of ease there.

"Null" means "I see equal ways to read this person as town that I do to read them as scum", whereas "Not enough info" means "I don't have enough info to declare a read yet"

Fair enough. I can see that. What are your reasons for reading scum!Cook, and what are those for town!Cook?