Newbie 2068 | Lofi Beats to Play Mafia To | Game Over

[Nahdia]

Vote Count 1.02

GrandpaMo (3):

Zyla, JamesTheNames, T3

Cook (2):

MiniMegabyte, GrandpaMo

JamesTheNames (2):

Zyla

, Val89, alstroemerial

Zyla (1):

Cook

MiniMegabyte (0):

GrandpaMo

T3 (0):

Val89

Val89 (0):

JamesTheNames

VFP (0):

Zyla

No Elimination (1):

VFP

Not Voting (0):

alstroemerial

,

T3

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-06-27 12:00:00)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With nine players alive, it takes

five

to reach majority.

Note:

When cooking with firm tofu

always

it drain thoroughly, and then pat dry with a towel (paper or otherwise). If you don't drain it and then think it tastes bad, that's not because tofu sucks, it's because you suck at cooking tofu.

If I'm not mistaken, the only legal way to take 74 is as a joke, otherwise I think it falls under a trust tell

@Mod, can I get confirmation on if I'm correct with that?

No comment.

[alstroemerial]

Some shorter thoughts now, just as reactions to what's happened while I was gone, with more new content later today...

1) It feels like a jerk move to be like "confusing posts are scummy" when it could just be GrandpaMo having trouble with clarity but the amount of effort spent on decoding posts is a bit of a drain on town's time, if that makes sense. In my more detailed dive today I'm going to be looking at GrandpaMo in more detail. Post 143 really bugged me as misleading, even though I do SR James as well for now. That's the other thing that is troubling me -- the amount of visceral hostility between these two doesn't seem like SvS but I have been SR-ing James and questioning Grandpa now. Also this is NAI, but some of GrandpaMo's posts read as just mean. I know we have to be forceful in our arguments but...

2) I just wanted to clarify the below because upon reading I see that it wasn't explained well.

Alstroemerial has me and Grandpa as both TRs at present, so the later assertion they think we are flipped (I think that means of opposite alignments?) adds an interesting dimension.[/spoiler]

My thoughts here were a bit tangled yesterday and it shows... What I had been trying to say is that both Val and Grandpa seemed towny but that if one flipped green it makes the odds of the other being red more likely, and at the time my read on Grandpa was a bit more positive than my read on Val. (Caveat that now I am not so sure anymore, see point #1). It could also be TvT of course, but just thinking in terms of relative odds.

3) Regarding the quote walls, if people are having a conversation that lasts over several posts, instead of quoting the whole conversation each time, could we maybe just quote the few most recent posts? Some of these are a bit unwieldy. On a similar topic, if I'm posting with a lot of different thoughts (like this post, for example), is it easier to read if I break it up into multiple posts or just do it like this? Let me know and I can change my approach.

4) I am absolutely not following the T3 trust tell legality conversation stemming from post 74. If it's really important can someone give a quick paraphrase or give me a hint of what to search on the wiki?

5)

And withholding info that would seem beneficiary to scum would only make my logic and perhaps alstro's (using this as an example for other possible town) logic fail as well because I feel like me and him have this intuitive thought that you or zyla could be scum.

them*


6) I feel like I need to make one of those boards with everyone's avatars (or a piece of paper that says "T3") with colored strings connecting them...

[Val89]

@Alstromerial https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Trust_Tell

[alstroemerial]

Thank you!

[Val89]

Not to mention there are different reasons for me and Zyla scumreading you.

Can someone just take a moment to look at the combined ISO for James and Zyla and identify where Zyla gives her reasons for voting Grandpa prior to James' #145?

I can't find it, and it's worrying me.

[T3]

It is

not

a trust tell.

[alstroemerial]

Not to mention there are different reasons for me and Zyla scumreading you.

Can someone just take a moment to look at the combined ISO for James and Zyla and identify where Zyla gives her reasons for voting Grandpa prior to James' #145?

I can't find it, and it's worrying me.

Here's my attempt at tackling this...

86 is the first post where either mentions Grandpa, and it's James questioning Grandpa's logic toward Val. Then, in 89 (less than 30 min later), Zyla includes Grandpa in a hero solve. In 90, Grandpa says that Zyla's 89 is a bad reaction, and James fires back in 91 that it is "better than" what Grandpa did. (Interesting!)

Grandpa doesn't come up really in the combined ISO again until 118, where Zyla SRs Grandpa and votes without giving a reason. Then there's some James stuff, and then we hit post 145.

So, in short, I couldn't find the reasons either. I think the interaction in the 86-91 is an interesting find that could show James sticking up for Zyla, but it also fits in with the fact that James was already angling towards Grandpa a bit -- i.e. it wasn't out of the blue.

Now, using the powerpoint charts I made with everyone's avatars connected by red and green lines (this took WAY too long), it looks like James and Zyla both had "mutual SRs" with Grandpa as of post 117, and between there and post 180, Zyla gave James a TR. I don't have a read from James on Zyla in my chart, but there is this...

I'm assuming right now you have some form of scum proof against Zyla. If so, why wait?

This is just something for you to fall back on when you have a bogus claim in the future. If you're not scum trying to place what you think is an easy elimination onto Zyla, then what is it you're hiding? As town you should have something right?

I'm calling the bluff, you have nothing here.

The above implies that James' attitude towards Zyla is generally leaning green, if he thinks that there is nothing for Grandpa to have.

One more note on this topic -- like I said, I've been thinking about GrandpaMo, and though I disagree with some of his approaches and ideas, I don't know if scum, especially newbie scum, would be so vocal and out there on Day One. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to fly under the radar than get in fights with everyone?

I do have a question for GrandpaMo, which is, do you TR anyone besides VFP? I couldn't find anyone else from you in my notes, but a

lot

of more SR-y type opinions.

[alstroemerial]

It would also be helpful for me to hear more from the following people: Cook, Mini, VFP

[alstroemerial]

As of right now I'm comfy with my vote on James, but like I alluded to in my earlier post, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the two scum was trying to hide right now. When you consider that the four SEs are T3, VFP, Mini, and Cook, I get nervous that they are generally being quiet while the newbies drive so much of the conversation.

[Zyla]

A) That's fine, we're different players, we look for different things, the important thing isn't that we read people the same, but that we work together

I'm not expecting for our reads to match, and I don't scum read anyone purely for having different reads. I read VFP as leantown, and VFP reads you town, for example. I see VFPs explanation for it - that he considers a scum!Zyla would continue to prosecute the "no-lim" vote further than you did - and while I disagree with it, it seems a reasonable case for Town!VFP to make.

I'm having trouble reconciling the fact that you're saying you wouldn't scum read for differing reads with the fact that that seems to be what your original post was saying in that section, but maybe I misunderstood something there

On the other had, we have the exact opposite read on {T3, James, VFP and Grandpa}, and a different read on Cook, too - over fully half the field, and the essential difference is I can't game out the justifications you might have because you haven't shared them. I am aware the same applies to some of the other players also, and that's on my radar also.

I thought I had shared my reasons for most people:
T3 | 167 (B),
James | gut read,
VFP | 135,
Grandpa | 103

I had a gut feeling that he was town based on what I've seen of him before, in a game that we played and meta I read for that game (as that's what got him), it wasn't much to go off of, but I was curious to how he'd respond if I acted like it was clear cut evidence. I liked his response, which is where the actual town-lean comes from

I'm reading your ISOs side by side, and I don't see it. Which post of his gave that feeling; which post of yours is the one where you act like its clear cut evidence, and which post does he give the response you like?
This seems, on the surface, to be a reasonable explanation, so if you gave give me those links, I may well find some measure of ease there.

Like I said, it was originally a gut feeling, my reaction test was 37, and T3's reaction was 42

"Null" means "I see equal ways to read this person as town that I do to read them as scum", whereas "Not enough info" means "I don't have enough info to declare a read yet"

Fair enough. I can see that. What are your reasons for reading scum!Cook, and what are those for town!Cook?

Actually, rereading Cook's ISO, I can't remember which posts gave me any vibes at all, NEI may have been a better spot for them

Not to mention there are different reasons for me and Zyla scumreading you.

Can someone just take a moment to look at the combined ISO for James and Zyla and identify where Zyla gives her reasons for voting Grandpa prior to James' #145?

I can't find it, and it's worrying me.

Hm. I hadn't noticed that yet, I'm still leaning town on James, but I'll be watching for sure

[GrandpaMo]

A) That's fine, we're different players, we look for different things, the important thing isn't that we read people the same, but that we work together

I'm not expecting for our reads to match, and I don't scum read anyone purely for having different reads. I read VFP as leantown, and VFP reads you town, for example. I see VFPs explanation for it - that he considers a scum!Zyla would continue to prosecute the "no-lim" vote further than you did - and while I disagree with it, it seems a reasonable case for Town!VFP to make.

I'm having trouble reconciling the fact that you're saying you wouldn't scum read for differing reads with the fact that that seems to be what your original post was saying in that section, but maybe I misunderstood something there

On the other had, we have the exact opposite read on {T3, James, VFP and Grandpa}, and a different read on Cook, too - over fully half the field, and the essential difference is I can't game out the justifications you might have because you haven't shared them. I am aware the same applies to some of the other players also, and that's on my radar also.

I thought I had shared my reasons for most people:
T3 | 167 (B),
James | gut read,
VFP | 135,
Grandpa | 103

I had a gut feeling that he was town based on what I've seen of him before, in a game that we played and meta I read for that game (as that's what got him), it wasn't much to go off of, but I was curious to how he'd respond if I acted like it was clear cut evidence. I liked his response, which is where the actual town-lean comes from

I'm reading your ISOs side by side, and I don't see it. Which post of his gave that feeling; which post of yours is the one where you act like its clear cut evidence, and which post does he give the response you like?
This seems, on the surface, to be a reasonable explanation, so if you gave give me those links, I may well find some measure of ease there.

Like I said, it was originally a gut feeling, my reaction test was 37, and T3's reaction was 42

"Null" means "I see equal ways to read this person as town that I do to read them as scum", whereas "Not enough info" means "I don't have enough info to declare a read yet"

Fair enough. I can see that. What are your reasons for reading scum!Cook, and what are those for town!Cook?

Actually, rereading Cook's ISO, I can't remember which posts gave me any vibes at all, NEI may have been a better spot for them

Not to mention there are different reasons for me and Zyla scumreading you.

Can someone just take a moment to look at the combined ISO for James and Zyla and identify where Zyla gives her reasons for voting Grandpa prior to James' #145?

I can't find it, and it's worrying me.

Hm. I hadn't noticed that yet, I'm still leaning town on James, but I'll be watching for sure

what?? what quote is this????

[GrandpaMo]

Some shorter thoughts now, just as reactions to what's happened while I was gone, with more new content later today...

1) It feels like a jerk move to be like "confusing posts are scummy" when it could just be GrandpaMo having trouble with clarity but the amount of effort spent on decoding posts is a bit of a drain on town's time, if that makes sense. In my more detailed dive today I'm going to be looking at GrandpaMo in more detail. Post 143 really bugged me as misleading, even though I do SR James as well for now. That's the other thing that is troubling me -- the amount of visceral hostility between these two doesn't seem like SvS but I have been SR-ing James and questioning Grandpa now. Also this is NAI, but some of GrandpaMo's posts read as just mean. I know we have to be forceful in our arguments but...

2) I just wanted to clarify the below because upon reading I see that it wasn't explained well.

Alstroemerial has me and Grandpa as both TRs at present, so the later assertion they think we are flipped (I think that means of opposite alignments?) adds an interesting dimension.[/spoiler]

My thoughts here were a bit tangled yesterday and it shows... What I had been trying to say is that both Val and Grandpa seemed towny but that if one flipped green it makes the odds of the other being red more likely, and at the time my read on Grandpa was a bit more positive than my read on Val. (Caveat that now I am not so sure anymore, see point #1). It could also be TvT of course, but just thinking in terms of relative odds.

3) Regarding the quote walls, if people are having a conversation that lasts over several posts, instead of quoting the whole conversation each time, could we maybe just quote the few most recent posts? Some of these are a bit unwieldy. On a similar topic, if I'm posting with a lot of different thoughts (like this post, for example), is it easier to read if I break it up into multiple posts or just do it like this? Let me know and I can change my approach.

4) I am absolutely not following the T3 trust tell legality conversation stemming from post 74. If it's really important can someone give a quick paraphrase or give me a hint of what to search on the wiki?

5)

And withholding info that would seem beneficiary to scum would only make my logic and perhaps alstro's (using this as an example for other possible town) logic fail as well because I feel like me and him have this intuitive thought that you or zyla could be scum.

them*

Sorry, I hadn't checked ur pronouns!

6) I feel like I need to make one of those boards with everyone's avatars (or a piece of paper that says "T3") with colored strings connecting them...

[GrandpaMo]

Also, I very much dislike how James just left this conversation. This looks bad for you, James.

Hold up. Wait a minute. You're giving me scum points, For Sleeping? How desperate are you?

LOL I LOVE HOW U RESPOND THIS AND CALL ME OUT FOR THIS! But you being contradicting; by not even ending up responding with it.

[GrandpaMo]

wait i think alstro is scum lol

nvm i think we vote james today and if they flip green, i think ur scum

wtf
doublewtf
VOTE: Grandpa

lol ok i guess i have to explain why i thought alstro was scum so randomly lmfao

i thought it was obvious. i dont really scumread them, they will probably be in my townreads just because i cant read 3 ppl and the 2 ppl are acting scummy.

and so far you + val have done like the most contributions

[GrandpaMo]

i was just reading alstro thru the interactions wit james hence why i said james flips scum >>> alstro most likely town. james flips town >>> alstro most likely scum.

i dont see why you points this out @t3 and said "wtf' like you were suprised?

I have done this multiple times as town in games I have played with you?

[GrandpaMo]

the vote looks weird -- hm t3 could be scum just because they are tryna find a reason. but them not providing a reason could be town. idrk honestly.

t3 can u explain? because u never vote me early

[GrandpaMo]

also whoever else is town? like no one has actually analyzed the me vs james conversation -- and haven't seen anyone point it out; other than small tid bits. because if you actually analyze it from a townmindset you can see how james is possible scum.

[alstroemerial]

On the other had, we have the exact opposite read on {T3, James, VFP and Grandpa}, and a different read on Cook, too - over fully half the field, and the essential difference is I can't game out the justifications you might have because you haven't shared them. I am aware the same applies to some of the other players also, and that's on my radar also.

I thought I had shared my reasons for most people:
T3 | 167 (B),
James | gut read,
VFP | 135,
Grandpa | 103

Looking at 103, it looks like the main part where you talk about Grandpa is below (spoilered to try to control length).

Spoiler:

I have never lost a game with a D1 no lim on here.

Here

is where it goes from "what's the meaning of your vote?" to scum reading.

That's quite interesting, considering I haven't even found a game of yours that had a D1 No Lim. I guess you're 0for0 instead of 7for7

Why are they saying that they never lost a game that they've never played? (And if I missed the one where it did, why are they treating 1 or 2 as a rule?)

Yes, I lied to you, it wasn't just because I pointed it out to say "it was funny", I pointed it out because I knew this was going to happen, and you weren't going to realize it after questioning hence why I had to lie so I can drop it off. But since, it has escalated ever since, the only reason this conversation happened was because VFP did a no lim. It's really NAI, and it seems like you are trying to set him up as scum for it. Yes, maybe he could be scum however, this is something more of NAI in my opinion, and shouldn't be taken as a regard. Many people no lim on day 1 and many people vote on day 1.

We will all be voting regardless by day 1, so there is no point to continue this conversation. I thought you would stop because you would find it unnecessary and NAI to keep going about a specific vote, specifically a no lim.

But you didn't.

So I will give you scumpings for this. I don't fully scumread you because you initiating this conversation could be towny of you but the way you are handling it could be scummy of you if you understand.

Then there's this. I'm not sure if I'm somehow not understanding a couple of sentences in there or something, but I don't follow the logic at all. Frankly, this post just confuses me , and I'm struggling to understand where his scum read is coming from.

Breaking this down, the way that I'm reading this is, in post 87, Grandpa makes a (to be fair, confusing) post that casts suspicion on you and you say you don't get it. I do think there's an argument for SR Grandpa, but this one post as the main evidence is a little OMGUS-y.

[alstroemerial]

Also, I very much dislike how James just left this conversation. This looks bad for you, James.

Hold up. Wait a minute. You're giving me scum points, For Sleeping? How desperate are you?

LOL I LOVE HOW U RESPOND THIS AND CALL ME OUT FOR THIS! But you being contradicting; by not even ending up responding with it.

Can you please consider being a little nicer...? I still TR you and SR James but you make it very hard for me to be happy about it. Like, yes, people sleep? There's no need to get derisive when someone doesn't respond in the middle of the night.

On that note, I guess I'll specify that I'll be going offline to sleep within the next hour or so, maybe a post or two still today if something happens.

[alstroemerial]

Oh, by the way, I'm not too worried about some accidental hammer in the middle of the night, but I should note that Grandpa is at -2.

[Val89]

I'm having trouble reconciling the fact that you're saying you wouldn't scum read for differing reads with the fact that that seems to be what your original post was saying in that section

That'll be because you quoted the first part of my response, and not the follow up where I addresed that already.

On the other had, we have the exact opposite read on {T3, James, VFP and Grandpa}, and a different read on Cook, too - over fully half the field, and the essential difference is I can't game out the justifications you might have because you haven't shared them. I am aware the same applies to some of the other players also, and that's on my radar also.

There's a slight difference between "we don't have the same reads" and "everyone you think is town is actually scum, and everyone you think is scum I think is town".

Hm. I hadn't noticed that yet, I'm still leaning town on James, but I'll be watching for sure

Hm indeed. It might have escaped your attention, but now you see James heavily implying you are communicating outside of thread, either a straight up scum slip, or else a scummy attempt to put words in your mouth and link you together, and your response is "still town though"?

I'm sorry, but if all I had was a 'gut read'; then even if you thought my argument around him being evasive in the James v Val interactions when he has demonstrated that he thinks that is anti-town were total BS, even if you think there is some town explaination for the "I don't like using meta in this game when it looks bad for me, but I thought was fine in my last town game when it helped find scum" line he is trying to slip past us, even if you couldn't follow Grandpa's arguments against James and wrote those off, and even if you buy James response to alstromerial's additional reason re: the tunneling comment, then I would have thought James trying to link you in such a manner would be reason enough alone to override a pure 'gut read'.

To your credit, however, I am satisfied with your response with regards to T3.

[Val89]

lol ok i guess i have to explain why i thought alstro was scum so randomly lmfao

i thought it was obvious. i dont really scumread them, they will probably be in my townreads just because i cant read 3 ppl and the 2 ppl are acting scummy.

To be fair, that doesn't really count as an explanation.

"I have to explain why I thought alstro was scum, actually I don't, here is reasons for a town read"

Fine, as you know, I townread them myself, and you can always change your mind if later events warrant it, but let's hear what crossed your mind when said you thought they were scum, even if it was only for a few minutes. It was long enough for you to post a read to that effect before it was recinded.

[T3]

wait i think alstro is scum lol

nvm i think we vote james today and if they flip green, i think ur scum

wtf
doublewtf
VOTE: Grandpa

lol ok i guess i have to explain why i thought alstro was scum so randomly lmfao

i thought it was obvious. i dont really scumread them, they will probably be in my townreads just because i cant read 3 ppl and the 2 ppl are acting scummy.

and so far you + val have done like the most contributions

I

have done the most contribution?

The alstro read seemed really out of the blue and I disagreed with it. Then the second part seemed like you trying to set up for tomorrow.

[Val89]

You have to dig for treasure, you have a shovel and it could only dig so much, what happens if you split the shovel between multiple holes, maybe you didn't dig deep enough to get the treasure, whereas if you dug as deep as you could on one hole, you'd know if the treasure was there or not. In this analogy shovel = time, treasure = solid read, multiple holes = people.

One hour later:

I'm not stubborn enough.

UNVOTE: Val89
VOTE: GrandpaMo

I can only assume James decided if would be better if we didn't get that treasure after all.

Where does your "solid read" on me sit now, James?

[JamesTheNames]

You have to dig for treasure, you have a shovel and it could only dig so much, what happens if you split the shovel between multiple holes, maybe you didn't dig deep enough to get the treasure, whereas if you dug as deep as you could on one hole, you'd know if the treasure was there or not. In this analogy shovel = time, treasure = solid read, multiple holes = people.

One hour later:

I'm not stubborn enough.

UNVOTE: Val89
VOTE: GrandpaMo

I can only assume James decided if would be better if we didn't get that treasure after all.

Where does your "solid read" on me sit now, James?

Different shovel.
I'm not stubborn enough.
As in I'm not stubborn enough to vote Val89 when GrandpaMo is giving me much scummier vibes.