Newbie 2068 | Lofi Beats to Play Mafia To | Game Over

[GrandpaMo]

alas, things change

you literally agree wit me on every point with logic not even surrounding james. and even wit james you do agree wit me. but somehwo im still more scummier than james.

you might be scum then

also don't like with this.

there is literally posts with u admitting that.

[alstroemerial]

Nice try but I don't agree with you on every point. If you go through my ISO I have been hesitant on James since the 300s culminating in my unvote back on 368.

So I'm scum again because I don't like you as much anymore? Cool cool.

[alstroemerial]

James answered our concern to my more-or-less satisfaction, at least relative to other people, awhile ago, but you seem to keep insisting he hasn't

[alstroemerial]

ebwop: our refers to the collective massive batch of questions people had when he was offline for awhile

[Val89]

Val :why did you think James would hammer without announcing intent? And would that be coming from Town or Scum James?

It was a gut reaction. At the time, I assumed it would come from a scum!James. Thinking about it now, it was a load of crap, but play suddenly took off today just as my reads were beginning to shift and took me by suprise. I'll explain.

Spoiler: Second thoughts about town!VFP:

Firstly, I thought VFP was starting to sound more scummy than I pegged them for originally. I had them down as one of those "low-content" players, like T3, but had read initially the content we had as Town leaning in #161. Since then, there was barely anything from them. VFPs #201 was a straight prod-dodge for example.

VFP didn't reply constructively to #207, and it went ignored, so I started paying closer attention to what was posted.

Spoiler: Interactions between VFP and James (via me):

VFP drops their 'Grandpa is scum' post, and James #319 says "Give me a moment and I'll post an actual response.". Grandpa comes in and starts trying to defend themselves, and James joins the Grandpa attack.

I thought scum!James was doing his usual trick of saying or implying he will get back to something later, and then quietly dropping it (cross-ref: #95, #206); and was using VFPs and Grandpa's back-and-forth as his cover. I point this out, and try and have Grandpa shut up.

James post his replies, and one of those replies is one of those truthful statements that sound like a reasonable argument to something, but don't address the question, and I zero in on that in #343. Given what I said about VFP not posting much of substance to that point, it's a surprise to me that VFP responds.

It pings me pretty hard, but it could just be one of those things. I answer it anyway, and the follow up is even weirder, and I start to think not only is VFP acting scummy - they are making it so obvious they WANT me to think they are scummy; and my mind wonders why? While I initially thought James was taking independent advantage of the Grandpa 'push' I wonder if VFP could be

deliberately

draw me into a conversation about how scummy he is acting to lay some noise in the thread James can slip away in again and look like he's answered the case against him; so I decide to take my own advice to Grandpa and shut up, as to not play into it.

Spoiler: VFPs "Look at me, I'm so scum" game:

Zyla's noticed, and pivoted her vote back on the VFP. Alstroemerial does the same, and the reference to 'coasting' makes me believe they were making the pivot for basically the same reasons as I identified.

Then there is the smoking gun post VFP must KNOW is going to get him scum read by any newbie game in all of cyberspace.

You call it coasting.
I call it laying low and trying to avoid being scum read.

I can't help but think it was deliberate. It draws another two votes in rapid succession. VFP is E-1. I'm really uneasy, because I think VFP must be doing this deliberately and the only reason I can immediately think for scum!VFP doing it is to get a quickhammer, end the day, and deny us information. I count the votes, post that, see who isn't voting him yet, and start thinking where the hammer vote could come from - It won't come from me until I've had plenty of time to digest what's happening, so that leaves Grandpa or James (being a newbie, I forget he could self-hammer here).

Spoiler: My concern about a James hammer:

I've made no secret that James is my number one scumread. The play feels deliberate, and I can't think of a reason town!VFP would WANT to get himself hammered at this point, so I have to assume a scum!VFP. My gut says a town!Grandpa does seem a reactive player who might be the type to drop the hammer on VFP, particularly just after VFP has started attacking Grandpa, so I wonder if

that's

the play - scum!VFP has decided to try and induce town!Grandpa into hammering him, perhaps the remain scum (James) then NKs me or Alstroemerial who also seemed sus of James, and the remaining Town lim Grandpa D2. The remaining town then are all basically town reading James less whomever of me or Alstro survives, who could be taken out N2, and he might go on to win for scum.

The only other place the hammer could come from is James himself. He is online and posting, and I also figure that scenario might give scum!James some superficial towncred for taking out someone who flips red. The second the hammer drops, It might be day over if Nahdia is online so I quickly want to try and put the thought that a scum!James might be the one dropping the hammer out there, and also to give him a moments pause before doing so, and so I quick-reply my #392 on to the thread.

Then I remember self-hammer is a thing, and in this scenario, that would be scum!VFPs play. It's moot anyway, because within a few seconds of posting #392, T3 unvotes.

I still gut-think the case above for linking {James, VFP} as the scumpair is there for the reasons I mention; although I do intend to think hard on it, but I realise now the hammer was never going to come from James.I also wonder if sacrificing scum!VFP to let scum!James slip through is actually the right play for that pairing. I've said why I think that would leave a D3 town that basically all townreads James, but at the moment this all started, only Zyla was openly reading VFP as anything other than townlean, and a wagon was starting to form on Zyla anyhow, so I don't think scum!VFP revealing themselves makes more than sense than just staying hidden in case James did end up getting limmed today; particularly as Cook's thoughts on James aren't known. I also realise I make assumptions that the mafia are able to get both nightkills off, and we might be in a setup where that isn't a given.

TL:DR for Norwee:

I started to see interactions between James and VFP that made me consider them as the scumteam. I thought scum!VFP might be deliberately making themselves look scummy to induce a quickhammer and end the day, but forgot self-hammers were a thing. On reflection, I was talking out my arse.

As an aside, I'm giving Grandpa +1000 scum points if this post gets quoted by him at any point without snipping it.

[GrandpaMo]

James answered our concern to my more-or-less satisfaction, at least relative to other people, awhile ago, but you seem to keep insisting he hasn't

where r u ? he still hasnt answered anything. im literally quoting where he hasnt

[GrandpaMo]

Nice try but I don't agree with you on every point. If you go through my ISO I have been hesitant on James since the 300s culminating in my unvote back on 368.

So I'm scum again because I don't like you as much anymore? Cool cool.

do u think we could be tvt?

[Val89]

I have to say that recent posting by Grandpa is also starting to give me the creeps. He is so desperate to come off as town it's unreal.

The only thing that is giving me pause is that I can't believe if it is scum!Grandpa; then his partner hasn't already told him to knock it off already before he throws the game.

[Zyla]

Maybe it's T3, he's a pretty silent partner, lol

[Val89]

Maybe it's T3, he's a pretty silent partner, lol

What do you mean?

[GrandpaMo]

I have to say that recent posting by Grandpa is also starting to give me the creeps. He is so desperate to come off as town it's unreal.

The only thing that is giving me pause is that I can't believe if it is scum!Grandpa; then his partner hasn't already told him to knock it off already before he throws the game.

i dare u too look at my town performance in the newbie game i was town vs scum performance in the first time i was scum and compare to this game. likepls.

see any differences/ similarities

[GrandpaMo]

I have to say that recent posting by Grandpa is also starting to give me the creeps. He is so desperate to come off as town it's unreal.

The only thing that is giving me pause is that I can't believe if it is scum!Grandpa; then his partner hasn't already told him to knock it off already before he throws the game.

like i deadass gave up 10 posts ago. and its not worth my town to keep going back and forth wit someone who is always ignorning / deflecting.

[Zyla]

Maybe it's T3, he's a pretty silent partner, lol

What do you mean?

Mostly a joke, I just know from experience in a Newbie 2065 that he's not really a "coaching" type scum-partner (to be fair to him, he didn't have

much

of a chance, as he was meta-read early on in the game)

[Val89]

Anyway i will let this point ruminate as i wait to see James's response to all of this.

Did you get what you were expecting, Norwee?

[alstroemerial]

James answered our concern to my more-or-less satisfaction, at least relative to other people, awhile ago, but you seem to keep insisting he hasn't

where r u ? he still hasnt answered anything. im literally quoting where he hasnt

looking at the combined ISOs of Grandpa+James he's acknowledged everything reasonable. It's debatable if the answers are enough to throw off suspicion but it's pretty quickly devolved into you just quoting yourself with things that have already been answered and then just being derisive.

do u think we could be tvt?

Potentially! The only scenario I'm ruling out entirely is SvS because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have gotten this far. It's early enough in the game that we could all be barking up completely the wrong tree. Like VFP alluded to awhile back (yes, I know VFP isn't looking great but I agree with this sentiment in particular), a lot of Day 1 is reaching around and hoping something will stick, since we don't have much to go on. However...

I have to say that recent posting by Grandpa is also starting to give me the creeps.

^this

[alstroemerial]

One last post before I call it a night: At this point I would in theory be comfortable voting for Grandpa and the only reason I'm not is that given the pace of the game, I don't want to leave my vote somewhere that I could potentially miss a hammer while I'm gone for an extended period of time (sleeping). In fact, UNVOTE: Cook just to be safe, though like I said I doubt that's going anywhere.

[T3]

Last game I played with Cook they coasted and threw out random reads and flipped scum.

[T3]

They're doing that this game, but I don't have a large enough sample size.

[Val89]

James answered our concern to my more-or-less satisfaction, at least relative to other people, awhile ago, but you seem to keep insisting he hasn't

Listen, folks, I've spent the last hour-and-a-half trying to relook at James with fresh eyes. It appears at this point that Grandpa is the only other person onboard with James-as-scum, and I get the impression over the last 2 or 3 pages that some of the posts he has been doing seem to be aimed at linking me and him together, which is starting to give me pings that perhaps I can't trust his judgement on it.

I'm saying to myself "Come on, you are 99% sure James is scum at this point, and you've been at-least fairly sure of it since Friday. Nobody else seems to be agreeing with you at this point, apart from a possible scum; and everyone else seems to agree {Grandpa, James} is never going to be a thing, so maybe time to look again, eh?"

So, I decided to challenge myself to come up with a town-case for James, just privately for now, trying to forget my pre-convinced ideas, bearing in mind what Norwee has said - and I'm sorry, but I just can't do it. I can't generate any case for myself to say Town!James, and I'm worried, because I can do it to some degree or another for every other player in the game; even Cook, who has made almost zero contributions thus far.

Please, help me out here, has

anyone

got a case for a town James that goes further than "Meh, seems town to me; you might understand better when you aren't a newb"? Please and thank you.

[GrandpaMo]

James answered our concern to my more-or-less satisfaction, at least relative to other people, awhile ago, but you seem to keep insisting he hasn't

Listen, folks, I've spent the last hour-and-a-half trying to relook at James with fresh eyes. It appears at this point that Grandpa is the only other person onboard with James-as-scum, and I get the impression over the last 2 or 3 pages that some of the posts he has been doing seem to be aimed at linking me and him together, which is starting to give me pings that perhaps I can't trust his judgement on it.

I'm saying to myself "Come on, you are 99% sure James is scum at this point, and you've been at-least fairly sure of it since Friday. Nobody else seems to be agreeing with you at this point, apart from a possible scum; and everyone else seems to agree {Grandpa, James} is never going to be a thing, so maybe time to look again, eh?"

So, I decided to challenge myself to come up with a town-case for James, just privately for now, trying to forget my pre-convinced ideas, bearing in mind what Norwee has said - and I'm sorry, but I just can't do it. I can't generate any case for myself to say Town!James, and I'm worried, because I can do it to some degree or another for every other player in the game; even Cook, who has made almost zero contributions thus far.

Please, help me out here, has

anyone

got a case for a town James that goes further than "Meh, seems town to me; you might understand better when you aren't a newb"? Please and thank you.

thats what i tried doing too :/

nd it didnt workout -- just recieved "backlash for it"

[GrandpaMo]

James answered our concern to my more-or-less satisfaction, at least relative to other people, awhile ago, but you seem to keep insisting he hasn't

where r u ? he still hasnt answered anything. im literally quoting where he hasnt

looking at the combined ISOs of Grandpa+James he's acknowledged everything reasonable. It's debatable if the answers are enough to throw off suspicion but it's pretty quickly devolved into you just quoting yourself with things that have already been answered and then just being derisive.

do u think we could be tvt?

Potentially! The only scenario I'm ruling out entirely is SvS because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have gotten this far. It's early enough in the game that we could all be barking up completely the wrong tree. Like VFP alluded to awhile back (yes, I know VFP isn't looking great but I agree with this sentiment in particular), a lot of Day 1 is reaching around and hoping something will stick, since we don't have much to go on. However...

I have to say that recent posting by Grandpa is also starting to give me the creeps.

^this

nah he didnt m8 :/ let me quote it for u

[GrandpaMo]

Explain your unvote. I'm curious.

im just thinking rn

Thinking what?

u think t3 is possible more liable to be my scumpartner than val?

t3 the person who i scumread?

Yes, I do think t3 is more liable than Val to be your scumpartner because of x.
No, I do not think T3 is more liable than Val to be your scumpartner because of x.

do you think i would bus as scum here?

Yes, I would think you bus here because of x..
No, I would think you don't here because of x.

you also pivoted ur vote from val to me. and this would have implied that you thought i was scummier. but still are bringing up the narrative that i could be scum wit val? so why pivot in the first place if there was a liable chance that i was scum wit val?

And you haven't even addressed this. I am not looking for a no/yes answer for this. But why.

can you find reasons for this? no you can't. never has answered anything.

[GrandpaMo]

pls alstro. pls for the sake of possible town!james. list out everything james has done that was a "a good response" to what was tryna be addressed?

[GrandpaMo]

202
Just because it worked doesn't mean it was valid. If you got to a hammer or lose and chose someone to vote because their name had an 8 in it and you think 8 is unlucky, and it just so happens to hit scum, doesn't mean going off of the number in their name is valid.

210
Completely disingenuous, you know that's not why.

239
I can't read Zyla's mind: 184 is different than mine, there's the formal comment for my not-so-formal comment just prior.

240
Pocketing from 145 has been adressed.
Stop with the self meta.
The whole being inactive for a night has been dealt with.

254
Adressed.

275
Adressed.

Everything else as far as I can tell, is asking for me to respond, commenting on my lack of reponse, or it's answered in this or the earlier post.

I apologise for the lack of posting, I'd like to post more and I'm going to try to.

this is just a poor response.

i expected way better.

like really?? this comes from town??

[Val89]

thats what i tried doing too :/

nd it didnt workout -- just recieved "backlash for it"

No, listen, Grandpa, I don't mean to be rude, but that's clearly not what you have done - you've just reiterated a

Scum

case on James and I want to hear a

Town

case on James. Frankly, unless you are going to start posting reasons why you think James could actually be town - in such a way that I'll be able to follow them - yours is only opinion I don't want right now. I've got myself here by trying to game out a Scum!Grandpa.

Maybe you pay a little more attention to a post when you see your name in it, but I've started to notice you've been pushing the idea of a {Val, James} scum pair as early as #268, something you've brought up again today in #465, and you seem desperate to get feedback from the other players as to how far that idea has started to implant. It feels a bit like you are starting to try and set me up for the D2 lim, knowing that James is going to flip red today. I know I then have to read you and James as scum v scum and I'm struggling to see that right now, but I'm not seeing an alternative.

Then again, t3 says trying to link people together and set up for the elimination the next day in something town!Grandpa does; so I don't fully know where I am at. Regardless, I want to hear from others now on James.