Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

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Post Post #675 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:07 am

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 674, Gypyx wrote:
In post 671, TemporalLich wrote:Combined Cop would technically be correct but also is wrong - You're meant to put at least two things in a Combined container but it's not like you're going to crash the game if Combined has 1 or 0 things in it.
well, a Mafia combined cop would be forced to have the same target for a Factional Kill and Cop action right?
I am not sure if that is possible, even if it is I'd insist on calling it a "Mafia Combined Goon Cop" to make it clear you're combining the factional kill.

It would be the Mafia equivalent of a Town Combined Vigilante Cop.

The problem with that is then, could such a Mafioso perform the factional kill normally? What about a Mafia 1-shot Combined Goon Cop?
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Post Post #676 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:10 am

Post by Umlaut »

Another example:
  • It seems mostly agreed that e.g. a Mafia Loyal Rolestopper can still carry out the factional kill against town, mostly because that's how everyone wants it to work. This means the Loyal modifier attaches only to the abilities of the role it modifies.
  • There is precedent that Mafia Loud Goon is an acceptable normal role and that it will commit the factional kill loudly, implying the Loud modifier attaches to all active abilities including factional ones.
Is this a contradiction? Only under an overly formalistic interpretation where each modifier must fall into one of a number of categories and all modifiers in that category have to have the same scope. In practice no one cares, and this is just resolved by the obvious intent of the setup designer.
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Post Post #677 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:14 am

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

I think this is all just semantics which can, and should, be clarified within the rolecard text itself.
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Post Post #678 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:17 am

Post by Umlaut »

In post 677, Jake The Wolfie wrote:this is all just semantics
Yes, the process of assigning meaning to syntactically well-formed expressions literally is semantics
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Post Post #679 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:33 am

Post by Gypyx »

In post 676, Umlaut wrote:Another example:
  • It seems mostly agreed that e.g. a Mafia Loyal Rolestopper can still carry out the factional kill against town, mostly because that's how everyone wants it to work. This means the Loyal modifier attaches only to the abilities of the role it modifies.
  • There is precedent that Mafia Loud Goon is an acceptable normal role and that it will commit the factional kill loudly, implying the Loud modifier attaches to all active abilities including factional ones.
Is this a contradiction? Only under an overly formalistic interpretation where each modifier must fall into one of a number of categories and all modifiers in that category have to have the same scope. In practice no one cares, and this is just resolved by the obvious intent of the setup designer.
you can have modifiers applied to a single part of the role or the role as a whole
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Post Post #680 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:26 am

Post by implosion »

Umlaut wrote:I don't much like the analogy to thinking of it as a programming language since that IMO is exactly what could lead to the kind of conceptual error that makes something like 2-Shot Townie sound plausible: how exactly would you program a machine to reject that while accepting Bulletproof Townie?
If you know about parsers (and if you do forgive me bc i'm going to sound rusty here), you could imagine a parser having types of words like "actionmodifier" and "genericmodifier" for 2-shot and bulletproof respectively, and a genericmodifier is a modifier that doesn't have to modify anything. Really bulletproof and ascetic act more like roles than modifiers. It's almost entirely arbitrary that they're classified as modifiers right now and honestly they should probably be reclassified as roles.

I do agree with this, though:
we don't actually have, nor do we need, a perfectly precise definition of 'normal' that decides all cases unambiguously.
I think *in theory* one could write a normal role parser; i think it'd be a bad idea, though, for various reasons. And you'd also run into a lot of cases where you have to make pretty arbitrary decisions.

The main case where this kind of thing actually matters is that it needs to be clear to a person who gets a role what it does, and in particular it should be clear whether that person is a veteran normal player (who might have strong notions of how the roles all work) or someone who's never played mafia before. It also needs to be clear from a role's name what it does, obviously so that if a role dies other people know what it does. This is why reviewer discretion is a useful catch-all.
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Post Post #681 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:05 am

Post by Umlaut »

Actually the comment about modifiers that should be roles is a good excuse for me to segue into the point that Enabler is almost certainly misclassified as a modifier rather than a modular role. In particular I think most people would agree that e.g. a Cop-Enabler should not be considered a kind of Cop, for the purpose of questions like "do they have a gun?" or "what result will they return to a Cop-Finder?" or "should a Deputy become a (disabled) Cop if they die?"
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Post Post #682 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:17 am

Post by Cook »

In post 673, TemporalLich wrote:2-Shot Townie would be an example of a red herring modifier - do you really think "Twice in the game during night, you have no special abilities." makes sense?
was thinking about this, and it's like a gated death miller (which could be interesting for a scum role in a theme game)

Welcome! You are a
Mafia 2-Shot Activated Death Miller
.
• During the night you may activate your ability for this night and the day following.
• If you die when your ability is active, you will flip as a
Vanilla Townie
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Post Post #683 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:23 am

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

The term you're looking for is Death-Godfather
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Post Post #684 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:06 am

Post by Cook »

In post 683, Jake The Wolfie wrote:The term you're looking for is Death-Godfather
and the term i originally used!

but i swapped it out
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Post Post #685 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:18 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 681, Umlaut wrote:Actually the comment about modifiers that should be roles is a good excuse for me to segue into the point that Enabler is almost certainly misclassified as a modifier rather than a modular role. In particular I think most people would agree that e.g. a Cop-Enabler should not be considered a kind of Cop, for the purpose of questions like "do they have a gun?" or "what result will they return to a Cop-Finder?" or "should a Deputy become a (disabled) Cop if they die?"
Enabler isn't a modifier, it's a derived role. (If you look at the wiki page Enabler, you'll notice that the automatic role PM generator thing describes it as a "passive ability" rather than a "modifier"; it wouldn't fit into the normal role PM syntax if you tried to use it as a modifier, because the player doesn't actually have the role being "modified".)

If you're interested in this sort of thing, you might want to look at Template:Rcl on the wiki, which handles how the various components of a role interact with each other. (The only categories which are true modifiers, in the sense of not being able to stand on their own, are "s" schedule modifiers, and "m" action modifiers; pretty much everything else either can be or has to be a role.)
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Post Post #686 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:21 pm

Post by Umlaut »

The wiki page Normal Game lists it as a modifier.
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Post Post #687 (ISO) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:29 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 674, Gypyx wrote:
In post 671, TemporalLich wrote:Combined Cop would technically be correct but also is wrong - You're meant to put at least two things in a Combined container but it's not like you're going to crash the game if Combined has 1 or 0 things in it.
well, a Mafia combined cop would be forced to have the same target for a Factional Kill and Cop action right?
This would be interesting with a Bulletproof Traitor actually
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Post Post #688 (ISO) » Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:50 am

Post by Gypyx »

also kinda off topic but i wondered, would allowing the scumteam to assign the roles among them has room them has room for design in normals?
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Post Post #689 (ISO) » Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:40 pm

Post by Cook »

the real question is not what a backup traitor would do, but what would a backup goon do in the hands of a traitor?

i'd say

Welcome! You are a Mafia Traitor Backup Goon.

You have no special abilities.
You are a member of the Mafia along with XXX and YYY. They know there is a Traitor. They do not know who you are.

Once a Goon dies, you will become a Goon and join the main contingent of the Mafia.
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Post Post #690 (ISO) » Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:57 pm

Post by Cabd »

In post 670, implosion wrote:I think backup traitor also fits somewhere in there.
Funny you say that.....
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Post Post #691 (ISO) » Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:43 am

Post by T3 »

Is detective normal for town only or normal for both? The page for detective and the normal game page says 2 different things. I would assume town only because there's no point if it were for mafia except as a red herring.
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Post Post #692 (ISO) » Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:47 am

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 691, T3 wrote:Is detective normal for town only or normal for both? The page for detective and the normal game page says 2 different things. I would assume town only because there's no point if it were for mafia except as a red herring.
I would assume scum detective is Normal.

Scum detective can find Vigilantes, the other scum in a multiball, and Serial Killers (assuming they have attempted to kill a player).
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Post Post #693 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:49 am

Post by TemporalLich »

Normal Roles that are listed as modifiers in Normal Game but I think should actually be defined as roles as they can stand alone:

Bulletproof - A passive role that protects you from kills targeting you (kill immunity).
Ascetic - A passive role that protects you from non kill actions targeting you (non-kill action immunity).
Macho - A passive role that protects you from kill protection (kill protection immunity). In my mind the Rolestopper+Macho interaction leads to the Macho player being protected from non kill actions.
Enabler - A derived role in the same vein as Finder. A Cop Enabler is not a Cop, just like how a Cop-Finder is not a Cop. However, Town Enabler and Town -Finder are malformed roles missing the role.

Note that I consider Strongman and Ninja modifiers, they cannot stand on their own (if they do, they are considered to
modify
the factional kill).
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Post Post #694 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:57 am

Post by Not_Mafia »

Is there a difference between those being roles and being a modifier for a vanilla townie?
Also, what is Not_Mafia doing? This is some of the worst play I’ve ever seen.
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Post Post #695 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:13 am

Post by Cook »

In post 694, Not_Mafia wrote:Is there a difference between those being roles and being a modifier for a vanilla townie?
Vanilla Cops.
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Post Post #696 (ISO) » Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:19 am

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 695, Cook wrote:
In post 694, Not_Mafia wrote:Is there a difference between those being roles and being a modifier for a vanilla townie?
Vanilla Cops.
Bulletproof Townie is not Vanilla.

Role Cops don't get Vanilla on a Bulletproof Townie, so neither should Vanilla Cops.
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Post Post #697 (ISO) » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:19 pm

Post by Jake The Wolfie »

Concept: Roles that implicitly lie to the players (eg. A Jailkeeper-finder when there is no Jailkeeper, which is functionally a Named Visitor) should not be allowed in Normal Games.
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Post Post #698 (ISO) » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:23 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 697, Jake The Wolfie wrote:Concept: Roles that implicitly lie to the players (eg. A Jailkeeper-finder when there is no Jailkeeper, which is functionally a Named Visitor) should not be allowed in Normal Games.
A Jailkeeper-finder without a Jailkeeper in the setup is actually functionally a Checker, they get investigative results and a No Result can happen.

Regardless, this "no red herring" rule effectively makes Backups, Enablers, and [role]-Finders pseudo-Informed (actually stronger than Informed as the info appears in the flip!).
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Post Post #699 (ISO) » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:23 pm

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 697, Jake The Wolfie wrote:Concept: Roles that implicitly lie to the players (eg. A Jailkeeper-finder when there is no Jailkeeper, which is functionally a Named Visitor) should not be allowed in Normal Games.
Why not?
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