Townstumps Mafia (Endgame)

[House]

I townread mastina independently of the clear so I still believe she is town, and more than likely not, confirmed town.

Confirmed town is a mech clear. She's not.

I literally am mechanically cleared.

Not_Mafia investigated me with a Weak Hider N2.

People have pointed out that there are scum roles that could block a hider hiding behind scum saving them, but literally every single role that could block a weak hider hiding behind scum from death runs into the same problem. And that problem is why I am conftown, because there is no way to explain the problem AND me not being conftown. You can only explain one, or the other, and if you explain me as being not-conftown you're left with the glaring problem.

I don't see that at at all.

Not_Mafia crumbs visiting you.
Scum partner jailkeeps you.
Scum no kill.
Result: Fake clear on mastina.

I think it's more likely they chose some sort of delayed kill mechanism over NK, which is why we had 2 deaths last night

[Titus]

Mod: Can a hider be jailkept or roleblocked if such roles exist?

Explicitly the normal version of the role hider can be both Jailkept and roleblocked, and this is the version of the role used for Not_Mafia.

I cannot confirm nor deny whether any variant hiders were used in the creation of the scumteam.

"The Normal version of the Hider is one of the simplest: the Hider, when they use their ability, cannot be killed by actions targeted at them; however, if their target dies as a result of an active killing action (e.g. a factional kill or Vigilante shot), the Hider will also die."

No actions other than killing actions fail against the normal version of hider.

Bold added.

[House]

I townread mastina independently of the clear so I still believe she is town, and more than likely not, confirmed town.

Confirmed town is a mech clear. She's not.

I literally am mechanically cleared.

Not_Mafia investigated me with a Weak Hider N2.

People have pointed out that there are scum roles that could block a hider hiding behind scum saving them, but literally every single role that could block a weak hider hiding behind scum from death runs into the same problem. And that problem is why I am conftown, because there is no way to explain the problem AND me not being conftown. You can only explain one, or the other, and if you explain me as being not-conftown you're left with the glaring problem.

I don't see that at at all.

Not_Mafia crumbs visiting you.
Scum partner jailkeeps you.
Scum no kill.
Result: Fake clear on mastina.

I think it's more likely they chose some sort of delayed kill mechanism over NK, which is why we had 2 deaths last night

3 deaths*

2 targets.

[Moongrass]

I think it's more likely scum shot NM directly. Occams razor blah blah.

[Titus]

I townread mastina independently of the clear so I still believe she is town, and more than likely not, confirmed town.

Confirmed town is a mech clear. She's not.

I literally am mechanically cleared.

Not_Mafia investigated me with a Weak Hider N2.

People have pointed out that there are scum roles that could block a hider hiding behind scum saving them, but literally every single role that could block a weak hider hiding behind scum from death runs into the same problem. And that problem is why I am conftown, because there is no way to explain the problem AND me not being conftown. You can only explain one, or the other, and if you explain me as being not-conftown you're left with the glaring problem.

I don't see that at at all.

Not_Mafia crumbs visiting you.
Scum partner jailkeeps you.
Scum no kill.
Result: Fake clear on mastina.

I think it's more likely they chose some sort of delayed kill mechanism over NK, which is why we had 2 deaths last night

That would work only if mastina was a delayed killer and her partner was a roleblocker.

[mastina]

Jailkeeper does stop the hider visit. The mod literally confirmed this.

If the jailkeeper targeted Not_Mafia?

Sure!

A jailkeeper targeting Not_Mafia would stop Not_Mafia's visit.

If the jailkeeper targeted Not_Mafia's hide target?

Nope, Not_Mafia's hide still goes through.

But there's a problem with the theory of a mafia jailkeeper jailkeeping Not_Mafia.

[House]

I think it's more likely scum shot NM directly. Occams razor blah blah.

Mia how do you townread this?

Moon is jumping through hoops spewing blatant impossibilities attempting to muddy the water.

[Titus]

Jailkeeper does stop the hider visit. The mod literally confirmed this.

If the jailkeeper targeted Not_Mafia?

Sure!

A jailkeeper targeting Not_Mafia would stop Not_Mafia's visit.

If the jailkeeper targeted Not_Mafia's hide target?

Nope, Not_Mafia's hide still goes through.

But there's a problem with the theory of a mafia jailkeeper jailkeeping Not_Mafia.

What's the problem with a mafia roleblocker or jailkeeper targeting not_mafia?

[Titus]

I think it's more likely scum shot NM directly. Occams razor blah blah.

Mia how do you townread this?

Moon is jumping through hoops spewing blatant impossibilities attempting to muddy the water.

It's not a blatant impossibility that scum shot Not_Mafia. It's unlikely but not impossible.

[Mia and Maya Fey]

rolestopper also works to make the scum partner untargetable

[Mia and Maya Fey]

that does remove the possibility of mastina and gamma being scum together

[House]

I think it's more likely scum shot NM directly. Occams razor blah blah.

Mia how do you townread this?

Moon is jumping through hoops spewing blatant impossibilities attempting to muddy the water.

It's not a blatant impossibility that scum shot Not_Mafia. It's unlikely but not impossible.

Actually it is.

Mod confirmed that was well.

Killing actions against him fail as long as he's targeting another player.

Also, for that ridiculous theory to hold water, 2 mafia players targeted 3 town in one night.

If that were possible, they'd have waited for MyLo+1 to instawin.

[Mia and Maya Fey]

VOTE: House

[House]

VOTE: House

Get over yourself, koba.

[Titus]

I think it's more likely scum shot NM directly. Occams razor blah blah.

Mia how do you townread this?

Moon is jumping through hoops spewing blatant impossibilities attempting to muddy the water.

It's not a blatant impossibility that scum shot Not_Mafia. It's unlikely but not impossible.

Actually it is.

Mod confirmed that was well.

Killing actions against him fail as long as he's targeting another player.

Also, for that ridiculous theory to hold water, 2 mafia players targeted 3 town in one night.

If that were possible, they'd have waited for MyLo+1 to instawin.

Right, so if scum suspected NM was an investigator but not hider, they could have targeted him for a kill. The kill would fail because they targeted him while he hid behind mastina.

[House]

I think it's more likely scum shot NM directly. Occams razor blah blah.

Mia how do you townread this?

Moon is jumping through hoops spewing blatant impossibilities attempting to muddy the water.

It's not a blatant impossibility that scum shot Not_Mafia. It's unlikely but not impossible.

Actually it is.

Mod confirmed that was well.

Killing actions against him fail as long as he's targeting another player.

Also, for that ridiculous theory to hold water, 2 mafia players targeted 3 town in one night.

If that were possible, they'd have waited for MyLo+1 to instawin.

Right, so if scum suspected NM was an investigator but not hider, they could have targeted him for a kill. The kill would fail because they targeted him while he hid behind mastina.

OK. I was headspacing n3.

[mastina]

What's the problem with a mafia roleblocker or jailkeeper targeting not_mafia?

If mafia used a roleblocker on Not_Mafia, why was there no kill N2? DGB couldn't have blocked it with a commute because the commuter was disabled after D1. And Not_Mafia is the only other player the scum could've killed that night. If scum roleblocked + killed Not_Mafia, Not_Mafia would've died, meaning they couldn't have roleblocked him.

If scum jailkept Not_Mafia, they would know not to kill him--so why didn't the scum kill someone else that night? They would know they couldn't kill Not_Mafia, sure, but why not kill Gamma the N1 clear? Why not kill DGB N2? The scum could've killed literally anyone N2. But there was a No Kill that night. If scum jailkept Not_Mafia they would know they needed to nightkill elsewhere, yet no nightkill exists.

You can explain me not being conftown by scum blocking or jailkeeping Not_Mafia.

You cannot explain why scum having blocked or jailkept Not_Mafia then decided to waste their nightkill by not killing anyone that night.

You can however explain the scum not nightkilling by the rule of Keep It Simple Stupid. Literally the simplest explanation for N2? Scum tried to directly nightkill Not_Mafia, but failed.

The simplest solution, dictated by Occam's Razor, is that Not_Mafia as a weak hider conftown'd me N2 and that scum tried to kill Not_Mafia.

The solution required for me to be scum requires the hypothetical and unproven existence of a scum blocking role (on top of the scum having a killing role, mind you! So a three-PR scumteam against a town with literally two PRs! Literally given scum more PRs than the town has!), who used it on Not_Mafia, and then for the scum for...some unspecified, mysterious reason that requires even more stretches in logic, requires you to invent some fabricated explanation, have no successful nightkill that night. Every proposed hypothetical here makes the theory more complex requiring more unproven aspects to it.

And frankly: if you were town you would know this.

VOTE: Titus

[mastina]

rolestopper also works to make the scum partner untargetable

Which still runs into the same problem; if I were rolestopped N2, then Not_Mafia's hider action would've failed...so where's the scum nightkill?

Rolestopper, roleblocker, jailkeeper, they all run into the exact same problem. You can't invent enough fabrications to justify that hypothetical scum role causing Not_Mafia's hide to fail AND explain the lack of kill from the scum that night.

[Mia and Maya Fey]

rolestopper also works to make the scum partner untargetable

Which still runs into the same problem; if I were rolestopped N2, then Not_Mafia's hider action would've failed...so where's the scum nightkill?

Rolestopper, roleblocker, jailkeeper, they all run into the exact same problem. You can't invent enough fabrications to justify that hypothetical scum role causing Not_Mafia's hide to fail AND explain the lack of kill from the scum that night.

i think you are clear - my point is against gamma.

[Mia and Maya Fey]

titus please sheep me onto house

[House]

rolestopper also works to make the scum partner untargetable

Which still runs into the same problem; if I were rolestopped N2, then Not_Mafia's hider action would've failed...so where's the scum nightkill?

Rolestopper, roleblocker, jailkeeper, they all run into the exact same problem. You can't invent enough fabrications to justify that hypothetical scum role causing Not_Mafia's hide to fail AND explain the lack of kill from the scum that night.

i think you are clear - my point is against gamma.

This is ridiculous.

If Gamma isn't clear to you, mastina is even less so.

[Titus]

Mastina, you're attempting to spin any suspicion on you as convoluted. You're smart enough, if you had deduced Not_Mafia was a weak role that him visiting you would result in you being outed as confscum. Doing a block and a no kill would create the opposite impression.

All scum need is one player getting through.

[mastina]

Right, so if scum suspected NM was an investigator but not hider, they could have targeted him for a kill. The kill would fail because they targeted him while he hid behind mastina.

Yes. But this only works if Not_Mafia's hide was successful.

If Not_Mafia's hide was successful...I am conftown.

If Not_Mafia's hide was unsuccessful and mafia targeted him for a kill...he would have died N2.

He didn't die N2, ergo either his hide succeeded or he wasn't targeted by the mafia nightkill N2.
But there's no other option for the lack of N2 nightkill, which means the most likely scenario is that mafia tried to kill him N2.

The logic behind this is painfully self-evident.

[Titus]

Right, so if scum suspected NM was an investigator but not hider, they could have targeted him for a kill. The kill would fail because they targeted him while he hid behind mastina.

Yes. But this only works if Not_Mafia's hide was successful.

If Not_Mafia's hide was successful...I am conftown.

If Not_Mafia's hide was unsuccessful and mafia targeted him for a kill...he would have died N2.

He didn't die N2, ergo either his hide succeeded or he wasn't targeted by the mafia nightkill N2.
But there's no other option for the lack of N2 nightkill, which means the most likely scenario is that mafia tried to kill him N2.

The logic behind this is painfully self-evident.

I was telling House that scum could have shot NM, thus you aren't confscum. I admit you aren't lockscum I just find you and moongrass the most likely pairing.

[House]

Right, so if scum suspected NM was an investigator but not hider, they could have targeted him for a kill. The kill would fail because they targeted him while he hid behind mastina.

Yes. But this only works if Not_Mafia's hide was successful.

If Not_Mafia's hide was successful...I am conftown.

If Not_Mafia's hide was unsuccessful and mafia targeted him for a kill...he would have died N2.

He didn't die N2, ergo either his hide succeeded or he wasn't targeted by the mafia nightkill N2.
But there's no other option for the lack of N2 nightkill, which means the most likely scenario is that mafia tried to kill him N2.

The logic behind this is painfully self-evident.

Conveniently ignoring blocking mechanics.

That looks oh so town. /s