Townstumps Mafia (Endgame)

[Nancy Drew 39]

I inferred that was town overconfidence in the game being solved.

I have actually done this as town but this time, I accidentally posted it here instead of the scum PT.

If I get miselimed saying this as town, remember this.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also DGB basically not playing and having no WIM whatsoever is probably directly correlated with them being given an confirmed town role. They didn't really care about the game because there was no threat to them and thus it was more boring to solve too.

Loyal neighbourizer or mason is more fun but I would have had WIM but you really never want to be IC at any rate because you’re basically an just an NK waiting to happen.

Also, Pooky v FL was ridiculously townsided. Town had disloyal cop, roaming doc, ungated vig and a supersaint enabler, while we had an alien, supersaint and 2 freaking goons ffs! lolololol

And Mastina, I don’t recall you calling that extremely townsided, which it clearly was.

You are both right.

<3

[Nancy Drew 39]

Well played nancy, koba, Gamma, NK. GG.

It was a win win for you in the end, grats.

<3

Ty

You were extremely impressive.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also game not scumsided imo. We just didn't think it through fast enough. Nancy you should have let Koba play more

Exactly! I think it’s clearly not because we could protect Gamma but he neither of us had the ability to protect us. Had NM been less obvious and visited us and we didn’t no kill, I think we likely would have lost.

I think the fact that you, House, me and even flipped jjh called Titus town, ought to have been enough for Mastina, nsg and Norwee to have reconsidered that read, especially since dgb locktowned her. Only reason I say that dgb kill didn’t confitown her was because she was confirmed tpr. In Heroes Wanted, I killed the slot that locktowned me only because they we’re probably the most dangerous tpr in mafia history. With Cyrus otoh, it made no sense for scum!him to have killed nom on N1.

Titus’ reaction to NK15 wagon spewed her town. It was extremely obvious that the really believed what she was saying. Scum!Titus in my experience wouldn’t be as obviously sincere about that,

[Nancy Drew 39]

Thanks for nodding Jingle. As always it was both fun and disturbing lol.

Someone should maybe nom this for post of the year.

[Nancy Drew 39]

The fault is the overly eager and impatient voting killers over here.

+1

This pretty much happens in every game, it’s rarely wise to rush elims - practically so close to end.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also some examples of possible normal roles

Although I'm pretty disappointed with the stump roles too

They lacked imagination

Weak babysitter
Loyal friendly neighbour
Jack Of All Trades 1-shot alien 1-shot babysitter 1-shot bodyguard 1-shot checker 1 shot activated bulletproof 1-shot cop 1-shot detective 1-shot doctor 1-shot follower 1-shot friendly neighbour 1-shot fruit vendor 1-shot gunsmith 1-shot jailkeeper 1 shot motion detector 1 shot mailman 1 shot neapolitan 1 shot neighbouriser 1 shot psychologist 1 shot PT cop 1 shot roleblocker 1 shot rolecop 1 shot rolestopper 1 shot role watcher 1 shot tracker 1 shot vanilla cop 1 shot voyeur 1 shot watcher

We would have loved weak babysitter.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Hey hydra and Gamma why didn't you guys hammer me?

Precisely because of the fact stumps had an ability.
If it was a vig shot we were screwed.

+1

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think that a good chunk of this setup was defined by elitism. Sure we got unlucky with the rand of NM getting the hider. Forcing a troll to play it straight was difficult for him.

People withheld information from those they scumread, putting them behind the eightball and preventing a changing of reads. No one really second guessed their reads but for me and jjh during the day we eliminated cyrus.

No one second guessed the gamma clear.

Pushing back on someone resulted in a scumread. Making the game full of cliques.

Oh 100%

The given POE of me, Moon, Titus, House was all town and the Cyrus wagon was my attempt to work together
An attempt that was foiled by House E-1ing and inviting NM to hammer before we got any real discussion time on this development, given, although NM should not be treated as some force of nature that we can all expect to lolhammer because he is a person who simply purposefully plays in a way that is bad for town and so as a consistent theme I continue to blame NM for the loss of this game

I think I would have continued to TR Gamma tbh because he still looked very towny regardless of the clear- but I also would have completely disregarded the clears after NM flipped.

Why though?

Our flip I get but why NM’s?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Just how did you bypass the clear?

Why the no kill?

How did the dual kill happen?

We didn’t no kill, we couldn’t kill NM N2 because he hid behind Mastina, Gamma was a N3 vig.

[Nancy Drew 39]

The mod errors.

The first one: I did not make it nearly clear enough that all town power was derived from the stumps. That was a major factor in the scumsiding of the setup.

The second one: I made multitasking default in the rules and did not take that into consideration while designing the roles, having forgotten about it. The N3 vig was explicitly intended to not be able to carry out both kills, but I had completely forgotten that they could via the rules set while examining balance.

The third one: The vig itself was non normal. Technically this wasn't outside of my setup rules (I was allowed to use non normal roles) but I very much intended to use only normal roles and included that as a solution to not seeking a normalcy review in the timeframe of a UPick when I myself rarely stick to the normal guidelines and frequently forget them, as I far prefer playing in the theme sandbox to build my setups.

The fourth one: There was an actual mod error that impacted the endgame. I missed M&M unvoting prior to the second to last VC and was unaware of this. It was brought to my attention after the flip had been posted, but I failed to catch it in my hammer count because I assumed the previous VC was accurate and did my standard double and triple checks using it as a base. I do not believe this would have changed the outcome of the game, but it was a major error.

Well NK15 would have been busted even if he had claimed his actual role then. Well had Gamma killed jjh and I killed dgb N3, it wouldn’t have changed anything.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Just how did you bypass the clear?

Why the no kill?

How did the dual kill happen?

Scum had a rolestopper who targeted Gamma, thus N_M's action never happened.

The no kill was an attempt to kill N_M directly, which obviously failed.

The three kill night was a N3 scum vig on DGB, a regular scum kill on jjh, and a guilty result from N_M hiding on M&M.

NM never hid behind us though, otherwise the 3 kill would have never happened.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Well, if you had actually target JJ you would have died anyway.

NM couldn’t have died N3 if he had actually targeted, so he had to have visited jjh then.

[Nancy Drew 39]

On a whole, the experiment here failed, btw. I was hoping to change the townstumps paradigm to give the players more agency in choosing the stumps, thus making it less likely to fall into a toxic shitshow when the game started. Instead, the stump selection phase seemed to just be unfun for everyone. I do think nixing the idea of a mason hood for the stumps was a positive step as it made the emphasis shift back into the main thread and away from "This game is all about two people, the rest of you are seat warmers".

I will say that I think you went about choosing stumps entirely wrongly as I touched on in the dead thread. The general consensus was to choose the stumps on the strength of their reads, but all that really accomplishes is tying the stumps' hands behind their backs. They're respected because of their reads because they understand how people interacting with them and the game in general is likely to shape the game. I would have approached the stumps in one of three ways, in descending order of preference: Someone who had the skill and talent set to keep the people in the game interacting in a wholesome way (nomnomnom is the name that comes to mind), someone likely to leverage mechanics to town's advantage (jjh), or a N0 cop shot on someone who is very hard to read (N_M, Cyrus, Kori). I think Norwee and nsg are both bad choices by all three of those criteria (as would be the Nancy/Dk hydra and mastina FWIW) and that stumping them actively prevented them from having as meaningful an impact on the game as they would have as normal players.

Why would we have been a bad choice? We would have likely chosen decent roles and I actually won as town stump before. I would have selected a loyal neighbourize and strongwilled disloyal vig for the last shot.

I probably would have made jjh and Titus tprs or maybe Moon/Mastina. I think that both dgb. and NM we’re probably not the optimal stump candidates. Definitely jjh because he’d have utilized his role correctly.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Honestly, stumping someone because they're hard to read is basically just taking them out of the game

I wouldn't have listened to a word said by any of the players you listed in that category, Jingle

Cyrus having no meta on anyone would not have made him an optimal choice. I thought nsg like Bell is extremely easy to read and therefore not the best choice.

I think the stumps ought to have been decided pre-game, by pm’d votes. That was definitely the most unfun part of this.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Oh, and regardless of the scumsidedness of the setup itself, I definitely think scum earned this win with good play, let me be clear on that.

<3

Especially since I felt forced to play 3 D chess because of NM role.

[Moongrass]

So my idea for a game with a self destruct mechanism is that every player has a chance to self-destruct every night, with a maximum of 1 person dying that way. Then there would be an inventor (either alignment and off the grid) who could pass out 1-shot abilities, plus a town defuser(doc). Scum get a 1 shot rewire/redirect at night and a 2 shot vig. Adds a bit of excitement, needs to be large. Is this ridiculous? If not, could someone make it?

[Nancy Drew 39]

So my idea for a game with a self destruct mechanism is that every player has a chance to self-destruct every night, with a maximum of 1 person dying that way. Then there would be an inventor (either alignment and off the grid) who could pass out 1-shot abilities, plus a town defuser(doc). Scum get a 1 shot rewire/redirect at night and a 2 shot vig. Adds a bit of excitement, needs to be large. Is this ridiculous? If not, could someone make it?

I’d sign up for that.

[Jingle]

Why would we have been a bad choice?

Same reason I wouldn't have picked Norwee. You're both good scumhunters and decently readable. I think those are both undesirable traits in a stump. You're also really bad at thread health management, which I think is the most desirable trait in a stump.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don't think i'm very good at hunting scum to be perfectly honest.

[nomnomnom]

To be fair I don't see how Jingle sees me as someone who cheers people up in games, I estimate myself to be extremely insufferable especially in situations where my paranoia goes through the roof and I'm losing my mind over games

[NorwegianboyEE]

To be fair I don't see how Jingle sees me as someone who cheers people up in games, I estimate myself to be extremely insufferable especially in situations where my paranoia goes through the roof and I'm losing my mind over games

Tbh i agree with this.

[NorwegianboyEE]

You're usually nice though.

[nomnomnom]

I try to be. I make some funny jokes when I don't lose my mind. I swear I'm trying

[NorwegianboyEE]

I'm trying to think of what exactly it is i feel i'm good at.
Reading the thread mood? Gamestate manipulation? Being charming?
Inherently positive traits to have as scum basically.
Which is probably why i feel like i've improved my scum game a lot basically while my towngame's been shit.