Newbie 2070 - Airplanes | GAME OVER

[Marashu]

Official Vote Count 1.05

Extra 300L

---

Elimination

Psyche

(2): BlurryX, ClarkBar

GrandpaMo

(1): LunarRest

BlurryX

(1): Psyche

Not Voting

(5): Wayward Son, brookewyrm, GrandpaMo, Nancy Drew 39, T3

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-07-06 10:00:49).

Mod notes:

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate.
Wayward Son and brookewyrm are being replaced. They may continue to play if they post before I find a replacement.

[Marashu]

Val89 replaces Wayward Son

[Val89]

Hello all;

Nice to see you again so soon GrandpaMo and T3!

I'll have a read through and let you know my thoughts once I am done.

[Psyche]

By virtue of being the second player on the wagon?

by being the first "serious" vote in the whole game!

[Psyche]

aw man i posted too much no one is taking note of my blurryx read

[ClarkBar]

aw man i posted too much no one is taking note of my blurryx read

I liked it!

[ClarkBar]

It reminds of this and I wanted to mention it earlier but got sidetracked.

@Clarkbar

Contributing more of substance than the others. I buy his reasoning for putting someone to 4 votes, as has been proven, it is a good way to provoke discussion, which gives more information to work with. I don't think there's anything I want to specifically highlight in his posts, he seems to be asking questions and sharing his thoughts, but I don't think there's anything I can see that tells me anything about his particular leanings.

One thing that did strike me was in

Don't leave me hanging!

[GrandpaMo]

Hello all;

Nice to see you again so soon GrandpaMo and T3!

I'll have a read through and let you know my thoughts once I am done.

hi...

i hope we can be cooler this game

yes?
no?

[Nancy Drew 39]

i know these games don't have ICs anymore and it's a bit patronizing for me to type it this way but i'd like to see fewer people sitting on not voting
if every player just sits on the sidelines until someone makes some clear scumslip this could be as far as we get contentwise
to do the bare minimum to keep the game flowing, just figure out your best hunch for who's scum, try to articulate as clear a reason why as you can, and lay down a vote to show you mean it
it's a wagon not a marriage after all (until someone hammers)

We have 6 days and I only vote when I feel confident about it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

imo you should also make an effort to clearly justify the vote with some reasoning
do whatever though i'm not your dad

If you’re pushing people to vote regardless if they actually feel confident about it or not, you can’t expect great reasoning.

[Nancy Drew 39]

imo you should also make an effort to clearly justify the vote with some reasoning
do whatever though i'm not your dad

If you’re pushing people to vote regardless if they actually feel confident about it or not, you can’t expect great reasoning.

This is why pushing people to vote is counter-intuitive. If Clark had voted without your pushing him to do so, I could actually reasonably evaluate that vote but because he did it only because of your urging, I really can’t. :/

[Psyche]

i know these games don't have ICs anymore and it's a bit patronizing for me to type it this way but i'd like to see fewer people sitting on not voting
if every player just sits on the sidelines until someone makes some clear scumslip this could be as far as we get contentwise
to do the bare minimum to keep the game flowing, just figure out your best hunch for who's scum, try to articulate as clear a reason why as you can, and lay down a vote to show you mean it
it's a wagon not a marriage after all (until someone hammers)

We have 6 days and I only vote when I feel confident about it.

I think that's bad strategy! It makes both you harder to read and the game less dynamic overall!

imo you should also make an effort to clearly justify the vote with some reasoning
do whatever though i'm not your dad

If you’re pushing people to vote regardless if they actually feel confident about it or not, you can’t expect great reasoning.

You're the one saying "great" here. My justification for my GMO vote wasn't toptier reasoning. But it was good for the game!

[Nancy Drew 39]

UNVOTE:

I lean to likely at least one scum on Mo wagon. Don’t think it’s Lunar or probably not Clark anymore.

What are the chances that T3 is scum with how he did seem "gleeful" (as someone has said already) at the chance of GrandpaMo getting eliminated. If you look at his ISO he's pretty convinced that Psyche is town and that GrandpaMo is scum and was even pushing hard with #118, #120. But I'm thinking he could just be the type of person who comes to hold strong beliefs so quickly (I mean, atleast in terms of people's alignment in Mafia Games). But I wonder if T3 thought that he could pounce on someone who he thought wouldn't be defending himself well and so pounced on GrandpaMo, and this whole "I hold strong beliefs so early" thing is just an act to cover the thing that he's pushing an elimation wagon on a town as a scum? I don't really know how T3 plays usually though.

Both have a scummy playstyle, so it’s really hard to tell but with the wagon on Mo reaching E-1 as fast as it did, I lean miselimbait more likely than not.

[Nancy Drew 39]

i know these games don't have ICs anymore and it's a bit patronizing for me to type it this way but i'd like to see fewer people sitting on not voting
if every player just sits on the sidelines until someone makes some clear scumslip this could be as far as we get contentwise
to do the bare minimum to keep the game flowing, just figure out your best hunch for who's scum, try to articulate as clear a reason why as you can, and lay down a vote to show you mean it
it's a wagon not a marriage after all (until someone hammers)

We have 6 days and I only vote when I feel confident about it.

I think that's bad strategy! It makes both you harder to read and the game less dynamic overall!

imo you should also make an effort to clearly justify the vote with some reasoning
do whatever though i'm not your dad

If you’re pushing people to vote regardless if they actually feel confident about it or not, you can’t expect great reasoning.

You're the one saying "great" here. My justification for my GMO vote wasn't toptier reasoning. But it was good for the game!

If it works for you awesome, it doesn’t work for me. I will hopefully have some idea closer to deadline.

[Val89]

Right then. First off, area tags are a new one to me; and look like they might be as useful as when someone pointed out I could use "post" tags instead of manually linking the URL, so cheers for that one!

GrandpaMo

I've just finished playing my first game with GrandpaMo. For context, he was a VT who was mislimmed D2. In that game I initially read him as town, and was then later absolutely convinced he must have been scum based on his reaction to coming under E-1 pressure. I mention this because I think that experiance may well have informed some of his behaviour in this game; particulary the self-voting and the sort of "I don't give a f*ck" kind of attitude we saw early on.

Self-voting, and whether or not it was a pro-town behaviour, came up in that previous game. D1 ended in a sort of 1v1 "me-or-him" style duel that ended up being Town v Town, and the D1 lim ended up self-hammering, whilst admonishing Grandpa for not doing the same. I can see a world in which a Grandpa of either alignment, just coming out of that game, might reflexively decide to splash a self-vote in there; either as a "look, I'm actually town this game" signal, or as an attempt to pick up some superficial towncred. As it happens, I disgree that the self-vote or lack thereof was alignment indicative anyhow, but it did come up last game and I can see why Grandpa might have decided to do it here.

In addition, once that other player flipped VT the thread wasn't locked for a good while, and Grandpa came under some significant pressure. His reaction (which I think can be fairly summarised as mad panic and spaffing random reads up the wall with weak justification, at clear odds to what he had been saying up to then) got him widley scumread and ultimately mislimmed, and I can imagine he was in no rush to repeat that experiance. I should point out that until this morning that game was ongoing as noted in 128, but that justification does appear to tally with what Grandpa himself said on the issue when you read between the lines.

Turning to that 128 more widely; I have to say that when I skimmed through the game the first time last night, I really thought I was reading someone elses post - I had to go back up to check the author. In fact, it stands out so far in juxaposition with posts like 93 and 113, which I consider to be stereotypically Grandpa, and then an almost immediate laspe back into it in 169 that I've flip-flopped back and forth this morning about whether I actually consider this scum-inidcative in that he must have had some sort of coaching from a scum partner who was panicing they were about to lose half the scum team by page 6. Rereading several times, I've decided that there is enough of the 'essense' of Grandpa in it, however, and the actual logic tallies with what I know about him to come to conclusion that in fact, that isn't likley the case, and I agree entirely with Clark's 138 on the matter. Bravo, Grandpa. Let's hope that continues.

In conclusion then, I come to essentially the same conclusion as I did initially in my previous game. On more than a few occasions, Grandpa can be a tricky read, but I think we are looking at a Town!Grandpa trying his best to learn the lessons of his previous games. In that regard, I consider 135 and 144 to be entirely genuine; and lead me to assign Grandpa a

townread

here.

T3

T3 was the other player with whom I've played previously. As before, they strike me as someone who keeps their cards close to the chest and doesn't offer a lot of content. I agree with the assesment that what content we do have seems almost entirely focused on Grandpa, and they do read decidedly pleased about having something with Grandpa to lock on to. Prior to 164, I would have to read T3 as coming off scummy. He should have enough experiance with Grandpa to know he's a tricky read, and finding something to press on as early as 41 seems a little oppotunistic but I can see why a Town!T3 might use it as an opening to pile on a bit of presure. He has, however, just finished up a game where Grandpa was mislimmed for his reaction to pressure and he should also know that Grandpa is a bit of a easy target for scum because of his playstyle; so I was starting to get scumvibes from T3.

So basically Grandpasaid "I know his alignment and he knows mine" The he was referring to me.. and I was voting him. I'm voting him, and he's nodding along saying, yes, you know my alignment.

This, though, changes everything for me. As has been alluded to by both players already, T3 and Grandpa have some history. A pertinent point in that history is that T3 has played a game as town with a scum!Grandpa where T3 thinks they caught Grandpa 'perspective slipping'. The logic makes sense, and does seem to be a perfect example of what I think T3 means when he says 'perspective slipping'. To paraphrase, T3 is saying he threw some shade, and a vote, at Grandpa; and Grandpa's response was "T3 knows my alignment"; indicating Grandpa was indeed scum. The flaw, as I see it, is that I don't read 93 as Grandpa saying "T3 knows my alignment this game" but rather "We both have similar playstyles in that we can be fairly easy mislim targets for scum, but we generally have a better feel for deducing each others true alignment over some randoms that haven't played with us before".

I also think that's what...

so i can tell when they are town and scum while others cannot making him a very liable scumpush for mafia

..is trying to say more explicitly, although it's still clumsy.

My conclusion is that, although he is wrong, T3 seems as pleased with himself as he does because

he is

rather pleased with himself. He does actually think, with some justification from a T3 prespective, that he's solved half this game after 5 pages, and is going to end up being the hero of the town. That screams town to me, and is enough for me to give him a

townread

here, too.

Pedit: It's taken me a fair bit of time to type this up, and I can see there is some activity on the thread from Nancy while previewing, so I'm going to post these two reads to the thread now and come back to the others once I've seen if any of the new posts give me anything additional to go on whilst rumminating on the others.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think Psyche hardpushing the whole voting thing makes me lean town on him, even if I don’t necessary agree with it. He sounds sincere in his desire to solve.

[Marashu]

brookewyrm has been replaced by Roden

[Val89]

Nancy Drew 39

This ISO started to ping me early on. 31 post at time of writing, and not sure what a fairly signifcant portion of them do. We have a an RVS vote on my slot followed by 5 posts that seem to offer nothing but apparently try and seem 'helpful'. There are some other things I find odd, such as the series of posts 74-76. A naked vote, followed by a naked townread, followed by the barest justification for said vote which amounts to "I didn't like this post" without explaning why. I don't see why the vote and the justification couldn't have been one post, apart from that it does serve to bump up the post count, and I don't follow the progression. It's almost as if she is reading the thread as she goes, the vote has gone in, she's saw something she could justify a TR on Psyche if nesacary and thought it important to get that in the thread, and then found something to justify the vote, or remembered afterwards they probably want something to justify the vote there if they don't want to get scumread, even if it is isn't actually a justification on closer look.

Admittedly, this could be a matter of play/post style, and I don't really want to go ahead and call it AI until I've had a chance to check through some of her other games. Speaking of meta...

It was under an alt account which I’d prefer not to out.

This rubs me up the wrong way, too. I get why you would want to play alt accounts. I get why, to have full value out of playing under an alt, it's best not to be open about them; but to try and bring knowledge from those alt games into this one without reciprocating seems off to me - like, you are simulatanously acknolewldging the power and usefulness of a meta read and apply it to this game whilst trying to deny the use of the same tool against yourself; and I don't see why you would do that if you were town, and are playing your usual town game here. I can see the justification for it if you are scum, and you are worried some meta might catch you out in this game.

In any case, since the rules of this game explicitly say "play to win this game, not some future one" I think it's fair game to point out I am 99% confident this is the game we are talking about, and equally confident about the identity of the account in that game to which Nancy refers. I am sorry if the digging I've done on this one devalues your investment in that account, but like I said, I consider it fair game in that I think how you've approached the issue might well be alignment indicative in this game, and I think since then you've basically outted it yourself with the reference to bugspray in 147.

I am also a little unhappy with this reference:

We still have a confirmed slot that hasn’t yet posted.

(SNIP)

I think until we hear from WS, I don’t want to assume more than one yet.

I am aware the WS slot is the slot I've replaced into, and her RVS vote is on my slot, but there is most certainly TWO slots to which the above applies, but only one gets a mention. What about the brookewyrm slot? Is there a reason Nancy fails to draw attention to that one, despite it being natural to refer to having 2 AFK slots at the time?

While none of it is particulary compelling in isolation, I think I have enough here in the 3 combined to satifisfy myself a

scumlean

is the correct read for this slot at this point

I have to leave now for a bit, and I realise this is a little bit of an inoppotune time given I haven't finished with all my reads, but I've skipped to Nancy because I think this is where my vote is best placed for the moment; so

VOTE: Nancy Drew 39

[Nancy Drew 39]

Nancy Drew 39

This ISO started to ping me early on. 31 post at time of writing, and not sure what a fairly signifcant portion of them do. We have a an RVS vote on my slot followed by 5 posts that seem to offer nothing but apparently try and seem 'helpful'. There are some other things I find odd, such as the series of posts 74-76. A naked vote, followed by a naked townread, followed by the barest justification for said vote which amounts to "I didn't like this post" without explaning why. I don't see why the vote and the justification couldn't have been one post, apart from that it does serve to bump up the post count, and I don't follow the progression. It's almost as if she is reading the thread as she goes, the vote has gone in, she's saw something she could justify a TR on Psyche if nesacary and thought it important to get that in the thread, and then found something to justify the vote, or remembered afterwards they probably want something to justify the vote there if they don't want to get scumread, even if it is isn't actually a justification on closer look.

Admittedly, this could be a matter of play/post style, and I don't really want to go ahead and call it AI until I've had a chance to check through some of her other games. Speaking of meta...

It was under an alt account which I’d prefer not to out.

This rubs me up the wrong way, too. I get why you would want to play alt accounts. I get why, to have full value out of playing under an alt, it's best not to be open about them; but to try and bring knowledge from those alt games into this one without reciprocating seems off to me - like, you are simulatanously acknolewldging the power and usefulness of a meta read and apply it to this game whilst trying to deny the use of the same tool against yourself; and I don't see why you would do that if you were town, and are playing your usual town game here. I can see the justification for it if you are scum, and you are worried some meta might catch you out in this game.

In any case, since the rules of this game explicitly say "play to win this game, not some future one" I think it's fair game to point out I am 99% confident this is the game we are talking about, and equally confident about the identity of the account in that game to which Nancy refers. I am sorry if the digging I've done on this one devalues your investment in that account, but like I said, I consider it fair game in that I think how you've approached the issue might well be alignment indicative in this game, and I think since then you've basically outted it yourself with the reference to bugspray in 147.

I am also a little unhappy with this reference:

We still have a confirmed slot that hasn’t yet posted.

(SNIP)

I think until we hear from WS, I don’t want to assume more than one yet.

I am aware the WS slot is the slot I've replaced into, and her RVS vote is on my slot, but there is most certainly TWO slots to which the above applies, but only one gets a mention. What about the brookewyrm slot? Is there a reason Nancy fails to draw attention to that one, despite it being natural to refer to having 2 AFK slots at the time?

While none of it is particulary compelling in isolation, I think I have enough here in the 3 combined to satifisfy myself a

scumlean

is the correct read for this slot at this point

I have to leave now for a bit, and I realise this is a little bit of an inoppotune time given I haven't finished with all my reads, but I've skipped to Nancy because I think this is where my vote is best placed for the moment; so

VOTE: Nancy Drew 39

I was literally asked by both Mo and Clark how I could gave possibly misilimmed Mo because Clark could find no games.

So this take sounds either dishonest or you have no been reading. You’re trying to make it sound like I made a big deal about this rather than to try to solve Mo.

I’m also going to read the *SNIPPED* post too to determine if you also misrepped that.

Yeah, that’s right, please do a metadive on me and if you still double down after that, I probably have a pretty good idea where my vote will go.

[Nancy Drew 39]

UNVOTE:

I lean to likely at least one scum on Mo wagon. Don’t think it’s Lunar or probably not Clark anymore.

you also had said psyche was leaning town for you. idk if lunar was voting me.

but if they were, then t3 is just left. does that mean you imply t3 is the scum on my wagon?

i also agree as i said previously. i do think there is probable scum on my wagon. i just dont know who rn

I liked that he expressed concern at your wagon being at E-1 but then he didn’t unvote, so idk. We still have a confirmed slot that hasn’t yet posted.

Well, I liked Clark unvoting you and I thought that Lunar seemed to believe what he was saying. According to what you’ve been alleging, T3 is supposed to be good at reading you, so if you’re town, then that probably doesn’t look great for him.

I think until we hear from WS, I don’t want to assume more than one yet. Has T3 ever wrongly sr you before?

@VA89 how did you also so blatantly misrep that as well? If you weren’t a newbie, I promise I’d already be voting you for the two obviously untrue misreps.

However, you’re wanting to metadive me actually looks townie so hopefully you don’t butcher that as well.

[Val89]

So, your response is to quote the entire wall, but to focus on a small part of it and say "nah, you are wrong, and scummy for even bringing it up"?, followed by "hah, you misrepped this too" with no explanation as to how? Noted.

By the way, I saw this "go on, I dare you to go there and see where my vote goes" type attack on a newbie slot by an SE last game. I correctly deduced it was coming from scum in that game too.

I still intend to do that dive, but you can consider this my double down right here, right now.

Feel free to vote my slot a second time.

[Nancy Drew 39]

So, your response is to quote the entire wall, but to focus on a small part of it and say "nah, you are wrong, and scummy for even bringing it up"?, followed by "hah, you misrepped this too" with no explanation as to how? Noted.

By the way, I saw this "go on, I dare you to go there and see where my vote goes" type attack on a newbie slot by an SE last game. I correctly deduced it was coming from scum in that game too.

I still intend to do that dive, but you can consider this my double down right here, right now.

Feel free to vote my slot a second time.

Well, if you’re town here, then you’re wrong this game and I will stand by it if I honestly think you’re deliberately not reading. Keep pushing me though. Still waiting for you to respond to my misrep accusations which y actually reading my posts can plainly see, you very obviously mistead.

So, when is your meta dive on me happening or was it just for show?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Wrt to Mo, I miselimed him in a past game.

What game is this? When I look at your topics and Grandpa's topics there are no other common games besides this one.

It was under an alt account which I’d prefer not to out. I’m still leery of his wagon building up that fast. Why would my post - saying att, he hadn’t played too differently and was miselimed, make you want to put him at E -1?

I still don’t know what to make of the whole meme thing but if he’s actually scum here, then his buddy is either choosing to let him hang or straight up bussing.

Mo’s point about being so fast being run up to E - 1, is a good one, because where is the resistance?

And quote the entire dam post. Thanks.

[Nancy Drew 39]

UNVOTE:

I lean to likely at least one scum on Mo wagon. Don’t think it’s Lunar or probably not Clark anymore.

you also had said psyche was leaning town for you. idk if lunar was voting me.

but if they were, then t3 is just left. does that mean you imply t3 is the scum on my wagon?

i also agree as i said previously. i do think there is probable scum on my wagon. i just dont know who rn

I liked that he expressed concern at your wagon being at E-1 but then he didn’t unvote, so idk. We still have a confirmed slot that hasn’t yet posted.

Well, I liked Clark unvoting you and I thought that Lunar seemed to believe what he was saying. According to what you’ve been alleging, T3 is supposed to be good at reading you, so if you’re town, then that probably doesn’t look great for him.

I think until we hear from WS, I don’t want to assume more than one yet. Has T3 ever wrongly sr you before?

@Val89, I have no intention of letting you misread me off of cheery picked part of my posts. Quote the entire thing. so I can better see what your true intentions are.

[Val89]

Go on, I'll bite. Where in 194 is the accusation I need to respond to?

For that matter, what specific part of the bit I snipped was relevant to my point that there was very clearly 2 AFK slots and you were only mentioning the existence of one of them?

I snipped it because it very clearly has no relevance to my point, and to include it would only confuse the issue. I'm so very glad you've decided to attempt this "baffle the newbies with buzzwords and bullshit" defense though, because I think you are about to find yourself in a bit of a bind explaining your way out of it now.

So, when is your meta dive on me happening or was it just for show?

You want that rushed, do you? Seems scummy as well, to be honest.