Newbie 2070 - Airplanes | GAME OVER

[GrandpaMo]

i townread t3 for the exact same reason in newbie 2069 or 68 (w.e the one that ended) lofi one and boom they were scum

You are making a rather large assumption that you know my reasons for townreading T3 for that post, and that they are the same as whatever reasons you had.

Out of interest, why do you think I'm townreading T3 for it?

yea cuz i felt like u had the same like vibe the same way i townread scum!t3 in that game.

so what happened was that t3 townread me after me just saying shit -- and i felt like i was comfortable, so basically it was my only scape goat.

basically got pocketed and i feel like since he townreads u and clark and just states it blanatly, u have the nerve to townread them as well because scum wouldnt say that from ur persecptive?

am i like at least half right?

[GrandpaMo]

Nod to my last game but before GrandpaMo scum reads me for being inactive. @Mo as of sending this I am going to sleep.

wdym, r u talking bout our last game? or rn

[GrandpaMo]

I was sick today, mild head cold and I'm rebounding. Being sick in the summer is the worst.

Quick question to newcomers (and welcome!) how do you feel about the dissolution of the Grandpa wagon and the quick reforming of the James/Blurry slot?

this makes me town like 87% most likely town from ur perspective especially when someone who never voted on me during the wagon

[GrandpaMo]

gotta say i'm often rather confused by the things you guys find confusing
like, didn't we cover this?

can u give me us ur reads?

i feel like u havent contributed nothing imo

[Psyche]

there's no way you're saying me that seriously

[Nancy Drew 39]

I am upset I didn't replace Wayward Son.

Why is that?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I sincerely apologize if I could be nicer about this but I’ve literally explained, re-explained and re-explained ad nauseum and even after I don’t think I can make things any clearer, Val continues to insist I’m ignoring the question. Then Roden piggybanks on it.

I’m fine with answering questions but getting repeatedly asked the same exact question - which I have answered, probably at least at least 3 times now, is exasperating. And I honestly can’t tell anymore if Val is pretending not to read my responses or he’s genuinely not understanding. Either way, I’m done with repeating myself over and over again, when I have abundantly clearly already explained it.

what tf more aren’t youcomprehending?

If you want to protect the alt, why not just say "I have a meta read on X, here is the game he played in and here is what I think it tells us"; trying to muscle in the fact you were playing in it under an alt seems like a way to try and bolster not very good reasoning with "I was there" cred whilst at the same time trying to hide your own meta tells. You know who worries about thier own meta tells in a mafia game? Scum! Who cares if you get meta read as town if you are town, right?

^ This.

I didn’t want to link the game BECAUSE I was playing under an alt. I’m almost regretting now even mentioning it but when I saw Mo so quickly being run up to E-1, I felt I had an obligation to say what I did because on what other basis could I have effectively communicated my concern with the speed of that wagon or why I was leery of it?

I really expected Mo to flip scum in that game and I was obviously wrong, so I had serious doubts about him flipping scum as a result.

I never ever link my ISO’s when I play under alts but if you like, I’d be more than fine linking that tm game, because I played that under my main.

Subject: TM2021 | Anime Destroys Untrod Tripod | Endgame

I asked him to read TGP, and Ceph thinks it's possible TGP is scum, but is confused at why he's a popular target. Also as scum it'd be weird to go after Nancy because she'll definitely OMGUS you. Not the wagon I'd go for today, and it's practically the same wagon as the one that was on me (Flavor, BBmolla, Nancy, NEE). The only difference is Mistyx being on it and shea avoiding it despite really going after TGP (and obviously TGP not being on it). Kind of just reinforces to me that assuming there were a couple of scum on my wagon that it's not TGP.

Let's talk about interactions between common people on these wagons.

NEE about Flavor: Opening post is a vote for FL, says that FL vote is town. Directly talks to FL once. Gets asked a question directly by FL and responds with a scum game. Once more recently but just about how the game isn't chaotic.
Flavor about NEE: Quite a few. Asks NEE about his reads. There's a short back and forth previously mentioned here.

These two don't seem to be likely to be both scum, though I admit Flavor seems like the type of person who is good at interacting with his scummates.

NEE about BBMolla: basically agrees with BBM saying he's content with the Ram vote. Claims he'd support a BBM wagon if not for the wagon on me... then joins the TGP vote (justified later by then saying that TGP is the scummy one and bbmolla is "slightly scummy")
BBM about NEE: Votes for NEE in a jokingly way then goes back to the Pine project he assigned himself. No further interactions.

If one of these two are scum I could definitely see the other being scum. NEE could be halfheartedly distancing from BBM. That said, BBM doesn't have many interactions with anyone so have to adjust on that basis.

NEE about Nancy: His iso is FULL of interaction with Nancy.
Nancy about NEE: Likewise here.

Are NEE and Nancy otherwise good friends? Because assuming not, it seems unlikely to me that these two are together.

---

BBM about Flavor: Gets asked a direct question by FL and answers it quickly. Says he's "unconcerned with sorting FL today."
Flavor about BBM: Spends some time calling BBM "obviously town." Other than the direct question to BBM has no interaction with him until BBM says that he's unconcerned with FL.

Definitely a possible pairing, though again part of this is BBM has fewer interactions overall so it seems less determinative.

BBM about Nancy: recently called Nancy town. Otherwise nothing.
Nancy about BBM: Agrees with the Pine vote by BBM. Calls into question BBM's Pine vote later. Answers a question about Ramcius.

Nancy's posts to BBM seem pretty organic at least.

---

Nancy about Flavor: Similar to NEE, Nancy has oodles of interactions.
Flavor about Nancy: Similar.

Again, I think Nancy and Flavor are probably two people who would interact a lot with their scum partners, but I have no reason to believe that they're both scum aligned.

Eliminating Flavor and him turning scum would point me toward BBM but probably not NorwegianboyEE. My town read of Nancy aside, I feel like the two of them are probably well suited to playing off each other as scum.

Eliminating BBM doesn't really do much for this type of analysis, unfortunately as he could be a potential partner to basically anyone on that list.


NEE and Nancy aren't really two people I'm excited to see go today outside of this.

This is the town!Zor post that one of the two scums, convinced me to vote for.

ok let me actually clear this up.

there is an apparent misunderstanding. val is not talking about what you did, but more of say HOW you did it and the events leading towards it. from my perspective, it may have been coherent that i knew what you were talking about but from someone's else's perspective, it looks like you were maybe trying to hide info on purpose etc. val probably just needs to see it from me v nancy interaction and you need to see that val is only seeing it that way and not you communicating to the whole town. then you later addressed it to val which made them confused -- if that makes sense.

Not really. I don’t see why it’s scummy not to want to out an alt. Saying he wouldn’t necessarily want to take my word for it without evidence, that I can actually understand but what could be the possible scum motive for anyone making that kind of post? Not that I expected anyone to locktown me because of it but I am totally not seeing how anyone could sr that.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I want to sincerely apologize if I’ve either upset anyone or made them uncomfortable. @Val89, you absolutely did not deserve those last couple of posts from me. I’m just extremely frustrated that I keep being continually asked to defend what I view as a blatantly obvtown post - repeatedly but I feel bad because this is the newbie queue and I shouldn’t be holding newbie players up to unfairly high standards, so again, I’m extremely sorry and regret that.

Man, just as I was starting to comfortably scum read you, you had to go and post this. Backing off like this is such a townie move I'd almost consider it a town slip. I say almost because an experienced player could convincingly fabricate a town response like this, and I still stand by what I saw as red flags. But I feel better just sorting you as "town lean who had miscommunication issues with Val" for now and moving on. There's no universe where you should be up for elimination on Day 1 anyway.

I sometimes say things I wish I hadn’t when frustrated and I thought what I said sounded kind’ve of mean and unwarranted.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Backing off like this is such a townie move I'd almost consider it a town slip

I wasn't going to comment on it because I thought it was self-evident on it's own, but did you read that as something other than "sorry you are so stupid Val, I shouldn't have expected you to play good like us SE slots." I can only assume there was a very surface level reading if it was taken as an actual apology.

Is there something townie about that?

That isn’t what I said at all. I said that I thought it unreasonable to expect you to have the scumhunting experience of an experienced player. I think that was blatantly self-evident. I really am wasting my time on you, aren’t I? :/

[Nancy Drew 39]

Regarding the votes on me, one is a prod vote, Psyche's was something I unfortunately can't answer, and Roden seems suspicious.
233 feels like he null reads Blurryx here, 258 feels like he scum reads here. I just find it strange how he appears to have a case on Nancy, but when it doesn't cause a wagon he jumps onto Blurryx's. Scum lean.

While my predecessor did place his vote during the RVS stage, I think it was actually well placed unknowingly.
73 and 269 strikes me as rather hypocritical, it was addressed, kind of. I'm very curious why Psyche in 310 claimed he was being overeager. You agree with whom? I reread every post between 269 and 310 any a time and didn't see anyone bring up 269 nor comment on it. I honestly feel like this is a scumslip that was meant to be in the scum chat but they messed up.
As such my vote is staying here.

314 is scummy. The only reason to hide reasoning would be because you'd be outing a power role. This clearly isn't the case. You have a scum read and 2 nulls.

Nancy is null, her whole reasoning for town reading Mo is meta, that isn't valid in my eyes, most certainly not as a main justification.

My null read is Nancy, my scum leans are Roden and Chuck, and my scum read is Psyche.

Why no townreads?

[Nancy Drew 39]

hi marashu!
i'm voting blurryx!

Thanks, fixed - M

everyone should be voting blurryx. i even think that should be the lynch for today!

@James, how are you getting this post was meant for scum chat? He’s talking about votes.

Unless this is the wrong post because this is what I got when I clicked that link?

[Nancy Drew 39]

he has been

Oop

Backing off like this is such a townie move I'd almost consider it a town slip

I wasn't going to comment on it because I thought it was self-evident on it's own, but did you read that as something other than "sorry you are so stupid Val, I shouldn't have expected you to play good like us SE slots." I can only assume there was a very surface level reading if it was taken as an actual apology.

Is there something townie about that?

Yes, what you described is exactly why I think it's a townie reaction. A lot of SEs are kinda predictable in newbie games, at least from what I've noticed. Arrogant/cocky/aggressive SEs have a town tell where they either get sweaty and try to solo solve the game, or they recognize they're getting too sweaty for a newbie game and back off. If they're scum, they're just manipulative because they believe they can easily trick newbies (which they actually easily can).

Nancy here seems to fit the mold for the type of SE I'm describing. If she were scum she wouldn't continue to be hostile to you while backing off, or reiterate how frustrated she is and specifically explain why she's frustrated. It could be AtE admittedly, which is why she isn't confirmed town for me. But I don't see how continuing to push the issue here could sort her further or progress the game in any way.

Regarding Roden post 236 is what makes me think he should have / would have voted Nancy.

Why would I vote Nancy during my catch up posts? I already explained why I town leaned her before a wagon could even start anyway. I don't have to vote someone just because I'm trying to sort them.

I was sick today, mild head cold and I'm rebounding. Being sick in the summer is the worst.

Quick question to newcomers (and welcome!) how do you feel about the dissolution of the Grandpa wagon and the quick reforming of the James/Blurry slot?

The Grandpa wagon looked bad the moment I saw it lol. Like, idk how you guys let him get to E-1 so quickly, which makes me think scum was on it. I'm liking the pressure on Blurry/James though. I think James is already making better posts than his predecessor at least, but I'm still on board with keeping this wagon going.

I do think it's interesting that Psyche has been the backbone of both wagons. I don't know their meta, are they usually so wagon-happy?

I think Roden is definitely town. Flipflops like these usually come from town.

[JamesTheNames]

hi marashu!
i'm voting blurryx!

Thanks, fixed - M

everyone should be voting blurryx. i even think that should be the lynch for today!

@James, how are you getting this post was meant for scum chat? He’s talking about votes.

Unless this is the wrong post because this is what I got when I clicked that link?

310

[JamesTheNames]

Regarding the votes on me, one is a prod vote, Psyche's was something I unfortunately can't answer, and Roden seems suspicious.
233 feels like he null reads Blurryx here, 258 feels like he scum reads here. I just find it strange how he appears to have a case on Nancy, but when it doesn't cause a wagon he jumps onto Blurryx's. Scum lean.

While my predecessor did place his vote during the RVS stage, I think it was actually well placed unknowingly.
73 and 269 strikes me as rather hypocritical, it was addressed, kind of. I'm very curious why Psyche in 310 claimed he was being overeager. You agree with whom? I reread every post between 269 and 310 any a time and didn't see anyone bring up 269 nor comment on it. I honestly feel like this is a scumslip that was meant to be in the scum chat but they messed up.
As such my vote is staying here.

314 is scummy. The only reason to hide reasoning would be because you'd be outing a power role. This clearly isn't the case. You have a scum read and 2 nulls.

Nancy is null, her whole reasoning for town reading Mo is meta, that isn't valid in my eyes, most certainly not as a main justification.

My null read is Nancy, my scum leans are Roden and Chuck, and my scum read is Psyche.

Why no townreads?

Not to make it too obvious but everyone else is town lean or town read. By process of elimination of them not being mentioned as Null or Scum.

[JamesTheNames]

I can't even just be stubborn about this, I genuinely didn't see that one line by Val89, or at least didn't process it. This is why you sleep when it hits 2am... my apologies Psyche.

[Val89]

basically got pocketed and i feel like since he townreads u and clark and just states it blanatly, u have the nerve to townread them as well because scum wouldnt say that from ur persecptive?

am i like at least half right?

Nah, not even close. I do wish being able to confidently townread people who townread you and be correct was a thing, because that would make this game a hell of a lot easier.

In actual fact, since I made that post, I am slightly less confident now my reasoning was a legitimate T3 towntell. My explanation was going to include the line "Unless T3 is the absolute topboss of self-meta", but reading some of thier scum PTs makes me think they may well know exactly what they are doing.

[Val89]

Roden seems suspicious.
233 feels like he null reads Blurryx here, 258 feels like he scum reads here. I just find it strange how he appears to have a case on Nancy, but when it doesn't cause a wagon he jumps onto Blurryx's. Scum lean.

Sorry James, I'm not seeing this one. Roden replaced in and was obviously skimming the thread and posting initial thoughts. 233 reads as the "this pings me" stage, and 258 is "yeah, I've finished going through the read and I come down on the scum side with Blurry". Going from a null read to a scum read is the natural progression, and I see no reason to be suspicious in it. You might be a little sensitive given that the target is your slot, but I would give it a re-read today and see if you still feel the same thing.

Before you replaced in, I was very lightly scumreading your slot, based almost entirely on the confused reads your predecessor gave us on T3 and Grandpa. I don't think it's fair to read your slot based on what might have been a communication thing, so I'm resetting that read to null, but could you give us your reasoning for TR/TL'ing those two if that is what you are doing?

[T3]

I feel like town James has way longer posts but I only have one game of meta.

[JamesTheNames]

Roden seems suspicious.
233 feels like he null reads Blurryx here, 258 feels like he scum reads here. I just find it strange how he appears to have a case on Nancy, but when it doesn't cause a wagon he jumps onto Blurryx's. Scum lean.

Sorry James, I'm not seeing this one. Roden replaced in and was obviously skimming the thread and posting initial thoughts. 233 reads as the "this pings me" stage, and 258 is "yeah, I've finished going through the read and I come down on the scum side with Blurry". Going from a null read to a scum read is the natural progression, and I see no reason to be suspicious in it. You might be a little sensitive given that the target is your slot, but I would give it a re-read today and see if you still feel the same thing.

Before you replaced in, I was very lightly scumreading your slot, based almost entirely on the confused reads your predecessor gave us on T3 and Grandpa. I don't think it's fair to read your slot based on what might have been a communication thing, so I'm resetting that read to null, but could you give us your reasoning for TR/TL'ing those two if that is what you are doing?

Regarding Roden post 236 is what makes me think he should have / would have voted Nancy.

This is what made me think he'd vote Nancy. Also 270 is what really makes me feel like he was just waiting to jump on a wagon.
"Now we're talking!" when the only change is someone trying to form a wagon on Blurryx.

[JamesTheNames]

Why did I decide it'd be a good idea to ISO Nancy, only just realising there's a person who posts more than Mo...

[JamesTheNames]

I don't know how to do those fancy things with the boxes so I'll just do what I normally do.
Summarising all of Nancy's posts:
31, 34, 35, 59 and 60 are all just RVS fluff. (60 because I think at the time people thought 37 was ungenuine/RVS-y, I do anyway).
61 never self vote as town I agree.
62 meta nonsense starts...
74, 75, 76 are all fluff. Why are 74 and 75 fluff? She never explained any of them.
83 early team assumptions or bussing implications are fine.
85 exists. I can't speak for Mo but I'm pretty sure 41 isn't genuine.
87 and 88 are explaining to Lunar and town reading Lunar.
102, 103, 106, 112, 117
140 and 146 making out Psyche is scum from her eyes, but redacts it in 190
183, 184, 185 and 188 bickering with Psyche over voting vs not voting.
187 so because T3 joined the wagon early he's town?
196 to 305 spam defense vs Val89, and meta nonsense.
The rest don't harbour much if any AI information.

Someone from my last game did this and it looked useful so I wanted to try it.
There are some of these I want to go further in depth into so I will.

[JamesTheNames]

Nancy claims that, at a point in time, there was at least 1 scum on GrandpaMo's wagon. At that point in time, Lunarrest, ClarkBar, Psyche and T3 were all on or hovering about the Wagon. In the same post she claims its neither ClarkBar nor Lunarrest. Meaning T3 or Psyche. Her next post implies she thinks T3 is a town lean, she also said "Psyche’s probably town.", so if the scum were to be Psyche here in her eyes, it changed after 190 Basically I just think what she said was fluff to claim she has ideas of who is scum and who isn't.

While having an alt and keeping it to yourself isn't scummy, hiding information from town is when the information benefits town. I also think meta reliance, not meta as a guideline but meta reliance, is inherently scummy, it just provides fake reasoning, making it look like you're inputting when you aren't at all.

After ISOing Nancy I can actually see a Nancy/GrandpaMo team being a thing, Her whole reasoning for being against the Mo wagon was Meta, and 147 just seems too convenient, as if she told Mo how to act in a mafia PM, then can just brush away everything Mo did or didn't do under the rug of Meta.

Unfortunately if you couldn't tell I thoroughly dislike and don't support Meta-reliant reads.

Also the vote on Val89 just feels like revenge voting from my perspective. Is it OMGUS? I can't remember which the right acronym is, but the one which is like "you voted me you SCUM!".

UNVOTE: Psyche
VOTE: Nancy Drew 39

[Val89]

Also the vote on Val89 just feels like revenge voting from my perspective. Is it OMGUS? I can't remember which the right acronym is, but the one which is like "you voted me you SCUM!".

Yeah, voting (or scumreading) someone because they start scumreading you is "Oh My God U Suck!“, but it's not always a scummy thing in itself. Remember town doesn't know who the scum are, and are actively looking for things to identify the scum. If you are town, then the only thing you know for sure is that you are town so if someone starts a scum case on you, you can't help but wonder if it's engineered, and that can prompt you to start scum casing them back without it being deliberate. A town can OMGUS another town very easily.

Nancy's vote on me doesn't even seem like OMGUS, though. She hasn't explicitly said so, but to me she has implied several times she reads me as 'wrong town' .

Her reaction to my scum case was more in line with NEEs from last game, in the vein of "go there, I dare you, and you are going to get voted." In that game, I pointed it out it was hanging there as an implicit threat against me, and read it as scummy, and it wasn't ever followed through on by NEE - they just decided to night kill me instead.

Nancy's vote on me seems like that follow through to me because I did continue to go there. It was more like an explicit and overt 'I'm voting you because I don't like your attitude, not because I think you are scum', and she wants me to know it - perhaps banking that my apparent inexperience might make me back off. A punishment vote, rather than OMGUS, if you will.

And yeah, I don't see any other way to read it but scummy, to be honest. It was in the last game, and I know it's only a sample size of one, but I think it is in this game too.

[JamesTheNames]

Also the vote on Val89 just feels like revenge voting from my perspective. Is it OMGUS? I can't remember which the right acronym is, but the one which is like "you voted me you SCUM!".

Nancy's vote on me doesn't even seem like OMGUS, though. She hasn't explicitly said so, but to me she has implied several times she reads me as 'wrong town' .

Would anyone openly start an OMGUS vote with declaring it is an OMGUS vote?

[Marashu]

.