Newbie 2070 - Airplanes | GAME OVER

[T3]

vc here.

[T3]

I can tell you with some degree of certainty that Psyche is town.

[Val89]

Val and Nancy were going at each other in a way that has, in my experience (albeit it's been years since I last played) is indicative of TvT tunneling.

What part or factors of it did you personally consider indictive of TvT, in your experiance?

So...I didn't give a reason for my scum read on you in my list because I wanted to see how you and blurry would react. You snapped back at me, which I expected, but blurry-slot immediately jumped down my throat about that specific action being scummy, which I did not expect from a scum mate since it's obvious buddying. So either you're both idiots (which commentary from people who have played with you does not seem to support), or one or both of you are town.

I've re-read this several times, but I'm not following the logic, and how it leads to either of the conclusions presented. Would you mind attempting to rephrase or else explain like I am an idiot?

[JamesTheNames]

Dude, you did snap back at me. You may not think you did, but you did. How you intended a thing and how a thing actually came across can and usually are two different things.

Not giving a reason DID give me information- it told me that either you or James or both are town. You can try to twist that into a scum read if you want, but it's not going to help town.

i null read u rn atm. im just jsut tryna get accross in both worlds where u could be scum in another world where u are town.

also i believe i just tried to solve ur allignment from the beginning which correlated into u not giving explanations. heck u even admitted so rn

Look Chuck, I'm also doing the things you Town read Clark and Roden for. Look how town I am.

[ClarkBar]

I can tell you with some degree of certainty that Psyche is town.

Certainty? How so?

[JamesTheNames]

I can tell you with some degree of certainty that Psyche is town.

If you're about to out another Power Role like you did in 2068 I'm going to call you a sock until Day 1 ends.

[JamesTheNames]

Clark why do I recognise your name and avatar?

[GrandpaMo]

I can tell you with some degree of certainty that Psyche is town.

WHY T3

problem is u do this as both town and scum lol so its hard to see it

can u explain t3 pls

just for me k?

[T3]

Psyche got the same gut ping from Grandpa's posts as me.

[Val89]

^ This is exact reason I though 238 was basically a T3 towntell, and my question to Grandpa in 332 was to see if he had picked up on the same.

I've seen T3 say that he considers scum unable to form the same emotional response to a post that town does, so if someone picks up the same pings on a slot he does, as town, then they must be town, but very rarely says that's the justification unless pushed. Whether you believe that to be true or not is irrelevant, I'm fairly certain T3 gueninely beleives it to be true.

I figured if T3 was clearing both me and Clark from one post of mine, and doing it instictively and reactively 2 minitues after I post, then he was doing so because I had picked up some things on Clark in that post that made him think Clark was town too but couldn't articulate, and he thinks a scum!Val can't fake that emotional reaction, and seeing me confirm the same gut-pings made him more confident Clark was town too, else how does one post by me clear both of us?

Hense my 315, and my confidence T3 can be excluded from the PoE. Since I don't subscribe to the same theory, I don't think Psyche can however, just yet at least.

[Chuck Shurley]

Page 1

14 (T3) This seems try-hard for how early in the game it was posted. Page 3 of a dragging game I could see. Post 14 when someone had posted an hour before? Meh.

23 (Grandpa) Why role and not alignment here?

Page 2

30It isn't RVS if you have to have a reason to vote, and you're clearly thinking hard about it. This seems fidgety and too try-hard for town, and is why I first started scumreading Grandpa.

32 The first thing Grandpa's said that I agree with.

33 Good question, Clark.

36 (T3) This seems like a good way to get modkilled at some point in the future, but isn't AI for the purpose of this game, imo.

40 and 41 - What does this even mean, Psyche? Why are you townreading them for it, Grandpa? I mean...basically this: 44

45 I surface-level agree with what T3 is saying, but this post feels like coasting.

46 So I actually town read Grandpa for this now I've skimmed the thread and talked a bit and can see how he posts, but when I first read I was super put off by it.

48 and 49 (and lbr, most of Grandpa's memeing) drive me up the wall, but we subsequently spend multiple pages discussing his behavior and I am thus sufficiently convinced that this is NAI.

Page 3

I'm noticing that Nancy's newbie direction to actual content ratio is skewed in the wrong direction.

55 I like Clark's game-solving stuff here, other than "liking wagons." Why do you like wagons? My understanding of that term has town-damaging negative connotations.

67 This is the post that put me in "trying to get people posting more, or just trying to cause chaos" mindset re: Psyche. If they seriously scumread Grandpa re: 58, why would they back down on their vote just because Grandpa got to E-1? Why would they poll the thread about it?

73 True about the newbie game. I think at this point there were still people who hadn't posted at all, and I suppose one of those could have come in with an I-didn't-read-anything-yet RVS vote and take out Grandpa. However...why not clearly state that and remove your vote instead of being weird about it?

74 Why? Clark is painfully town at this point.

Page 4

75 and 76 Why?

79 Thank you previous me, I hadn't considered that. *squints*

84 Okay, not wanting the day to end early is fair. More talking is more better for town. At the same time, 67 still feels fake af.

85 (and a few more after) - Nancy's posts really aren't pushing the game along. I suppose asking Grandpa for motive counts, but I am going to do an ISO and do a proper comparison of content to direction/arguing/AtE when I'm done with this.

92 (T3) Yes, but could you tell us why?

93 Grandpa's just not on the same page, I suppose. Also, he's buddying T3 here and I'm not liking it. That bit about alignment could be a scum slip (I've seen more blatant) or it's mislim bait. Based on the rest of the thread I'm inclined to the latter but dude, read the room and think about what you write, yeah?

96 On a second read through I am not townreading this as hard as I did my first skim. If Grandpa is town and Clark is mafia, then Grandpa's statement is the easiest thing in the world to call out and cast suspicion without seeming suspicious yourself (see above), especially given he's already at E-1 at this point. Similar vibe with 97.

Page 5

101 And here the confusion begins that leads to Val vs Nancy. Nancy could have avoided a world of confusion and arguing by just linking to some example posts in the game in question. There's nothing about her behavior in that game in this post and no reason for people to suss out HER posts, just skim for Grandpa's. A simple "This game, but I'm not going to ID my alt and I have the right to do that" (I think? Otherwise what's the point of having alts...) would have solved so many problems.

102 Nancy needs to stop telling other people how to play and just play.

103 to 108 - T3 is laughing at a serious E-1, but pushing Nancy to declare intent. I don't like contradictions.

110 If Grandpa knows T3's alignment plays so very well, why is he later ragging on people (me) about our reads instead of telling us how and why we are wrong?

114 Page 5 is plenty long enough to have a rough reads list. Also, Grandpa says he know T3's tells, so I'd love to know specifically why he was townreading him here.

117 (Nancy) Eh, okay. If I'd been playing from the start I might have been similarly inclined to hand hold in hopes of better results because memeing drives me batshit.

118 and 120 I think I'm getting a grip on T3's play style. He's being consistent and persistent about his scumread so I'm leaning town on him for these posts. Still squinting at the laughter over serious E-1, but...I mean...it's page 5. It may not be too early for a reads list, but it is pretty damn early to get to this point in voting.

122 This sounds like confused and frustrated town.

124 This feels like Psyche is just asking questions to appear active. A skim of page 4 and 5 is all it takes to understand T3's post.

Page 6

125Clark, can you explain how you saw Nancy's posts as a defense of Grandpa's playing? I just read and re-read and I see her calling out that he's playing *differently* and that she's frustrated he won't take the game seriously. None of that looks like defense to me.

126 So if T3 is gleeful about Grandpa's position and you like what Grandpa himself is saying, why are you still voting Grandpa?

128 Hey, Grandpa gets serious, and I like it! I glazed over this one in my initial read because it was so long and I sort of assumed it would be full of more BS, but this post is so, so town. Also I got my explanation for the T3 town read. Aight.

131 I was initially reading their questions as disingenuous efforts to look innocent, but the account only has 34 posts so maybe they were asked in good faith. But this overshadows that by miles:

For now I think keeping Grandpa as the lead contender for the guillotine is the right move,

as they do have an erratic posting style that may cause confusion later in the game

, but hopefully there is something more substantive to base a day 1 lynch off of in the next few days, and we haven't yet heard from the two AFK players.

The bolded part I think is the most important; there's an implication here that they know Grandpa is town, since their argument is based on Grandpa's post style rather than on any particular scummy plays Grandpa has made. I read this as "let's lim this townie because they might be misread as scum later." The thing is, you cannot make that statement without knowing your target is town, which you could not know unless you are in fact scum.

It doesn't help that they specifically and particularly do NOT put themselves in the spot light by declaring intent to hammer (despite stating that votes should stay on him), which would have provided an immediate and useful answer to Grandpa's alignment. It feels VERY strongly of clumsy scum manipulation.

Since Blurry isn't in the game anymore I can't ask them to explain themselves, which is intensely frustrating. Basically what it means is I'll be reading James' posts through scumread glasses until/unless he effectively shows me this was a bad town play rather than a scumslip.

132 If Clark and Blurry are scum, then 125 was Clark setting himself up to step off a rapidly less sustainable wagon, and this post is him distancing himself from a clumsy partner.

138 I find Clark's rapid change of heart and immediate request for input to be vaguely sus.

The rest of Grandpa's posts on this page are townleaning.

Gotta stop for now, this is so many words. In summary so far: Townreading Grandpa now. T3 is town leaning. Clark is leaning sus. Blurry/James is still sus. Still getting a handle on Psyche. Nancy and Val are still town based on my read of their exchange, but that may change. Haven't gotten to Roden to decide if my full read matches my skim-read.

I'll respond to questions @ me in a bit.

[Chuck Shurley]

Val and Nancy were going at each other in a way that has, in my experience (albeit it's been years since I last played) is indicative of TvT tunneling.

What part or factors of it did you personally consider indictive of TvT, in your experiance?

It's the single-minded intensity. I'm far from a mafia veteran and I haven't played any mafia at all in forever, but when I WAS playing, scum *loved* shit like this because it got Town arguing among themselves and took the heat off them.

So...I didn't give a reason for my scum read on you in my list because I wanted to see how you and blurry would react. You snapped back at me, which I expected, but blurry-slot immediately jumped down my throat about that specific action being scummy, which I did not expect from a scum mate since it's obvious buddying. So either you're both idiots (which commentary from people who have played with you does not seem to support), or one or both of you are town.

I've re-read this several times, but I'm not following the logic, and how it leads to either of the conclusions presented. Would you mind attempting to rephrase or else explain like I am an idiot?[/quote]

My initial read on grandpa was that he was reactive and defensive in a way that has, in the past, indicated newbie scum. I didn't give a reason for disliking him because I knew he WOULD react, but wanted to specifically see how. He replied with "zomg so scummy" which is exactly what I expected based on what I'd seen so far in my skim-read.

In a world where Grandpa and Blurry were actually a team, I then expected blurry or blurry's replacement to completely ignore the exchange, try to defer attention somewhere else, or perhaps agree with me in an attempt to seem town.

What I did not expect was for James (my other clear scum read) to come in saying the same thing. For scum 1 to defend scum 2 so early in the game seems extremely unlikely / dangerous, so a grandpa/james team seems extremely unlikely.

Thus by default either one of them is town and one of them is scum, or both of them are town.

Now in my deep dive (see above) I've determined that Grandpa seems solid town now that I've actually read some of his post-meme posts, and I've also outlined why I scumread blurry's post so admittedly, I could have come to that conclusion without a test, but... *shrug* what's done is done.

[Chuck Shurley]

Ugh I broke the quote nesting. -_-

[JamesTheNames]

Can anybody explain how to do the boxes?

[T3]

[verbatim]

[/verbatim]

[Chuck Shurley]

you type

Title of area

Content [/ area] without the spaces.

[JamesTheNames]

@Chuck obviously I can't tell you what Blurryx my predecesor was intending with his 1 actual post, if you ignore Blurryx's comment, can I get your opinion on my slot? It's a pain in the rear to be scum read / scum leant because of a predecesor and to not be able to do anything.

[Val89]

It's the single-minded intensity. I'm far from a mafia veteran and I haven't played any mafia at all in forever, but when I WAS playing, scum *loved* shit like this because it got Town arguing among themselves and took the heat off them.

Meh, I don't see it that way. I appreaciate scum love it if it TvT, but that fact alone isn't a justifcation why it must be TvT here. Sure, if we are TvT I am sure scum are pissing themselves laughing at us, but it isn't something scum get to invoke or control at all, and just because it might seem 'single-minded' I don't think that can identify it one way or another. I would hardly expect scum to just roll over and be "eh, fair enough, you got me".

In fact, the single-mindness of it may well indicate that I (and everyone else) have fallen into exactly the trap a theorectical scum!Nancy intended us to. The whole focus has been on the 'alt thing', and how me and Nancy ended up 'arguing' about it, and we seem to have forgotten (me included, in fact), that the 'alt thing' was only a small, and frankly not all that important, part of what pinged me as scummy about her in the first place. James has picked up in more detail in 370 what I was trying to express in my first paragraph on 192.

I do still think it's odd, but I am happy to entertain the idea that I am wrong about the alt thing, and the stuff about the two afk slots as being NAI (I admitted it was weak in isolation in the post itself), and I still think there is enough in the odd-ness of Nancy's play and posting upto then, and in her reaction, to say there is good cause to scumlean her slot regardless.

I've stated why I think her reaction was scum-indicative rather than an abrasive TvT reaction a few times, but I am worried other town may well have glossed over it and the clear scumpings have just been lost in the noise; so I'll post a couple of snippets from that reaction I think sum up why I am concerned. I am aware Nancy will complain I'm quoting relevant parts, rather than the whole posts, and probably try screaming I'm misrepresenting her by doing so, but if I do so then eyes will glaze over again, so sod it. If you see the issue, you can go and read the whole posts you so know I'm not trying to pull a fast one on anyone here.

We have 6 days and

I only vote when I feel confident about it.

If you weren’t a newbie, I promise I’d already be voting you for the two obviously untrue misreps.

However, you’re wanting to metadive me actually looks townie

so hopefully you don’t butcher that as well.

Actually I kind’ve like this.

I’m going to lean wrong town for now

but if he continues to misrep my posts, that will change.

VOTE: Val89

I’m really getting irritated with your attitude. Do better.

Very next post:

I don’t even have a read on you

but I feel like you’re trying to bully and intimidate me with your tone

[Psyche]

gotta say i'm often rather confused by the things you guys find confusing
like, didn't we cover this?

can u give me us ur reads?

i feel like u havent contributed nothing imo

can u answeer mi question mi amigo

just read my iso
you obviously missed some posts

[Psyche]

I've been leaning town on Nancy, but Val's convinced me that there really is stuff not to like about her in her ISO. By her own account, I should be taking her votes more seriously than I might someone else's in the game because she purportedly will never make them unless she's confident they'll land on scum. But when I look at her one vote this whole game (for Val!) I just see boring resentment, not any sorting, and definitely nothing afterward to either sharpen or otherwise help propel the town based on the read. She explicitly disavows any read-based motivation a single post later. For these reasons her ISO is super frustrating and hard to distinguish from active lurking. I mean we're now 17 pages, 419 posts, into the game and she has nothing but a bunch of specious null and town reads? It's tough to swallow.

At the same time though, there's little here to positively mark her as scum

if

her meta is consistent with this decision to never meaningfully weigh into the game - which I've only been assuming is the case but I'd bet it is. Val tries to make more of it by marking out apparent contradictions between posts like 183, 202, and 212, but tbh that's small fry shit. Any apparent tension between those posts is resolved by acknowledging that she didn't vote Val because she scumread the slot; she voted it because she was mad at him, and has been ambivalent about admitting as much. Unless there's some reason to interpret that anger as disingenous, that's NAI to me - though antitown in context.

also bold red! that sure helps single out stuff! gotta touch that sparingly though

[JamesTheNames]

Is anti-town as an SE in a newbie game not scummy?

[JamesTheNames]

Or rather is it not dodgy?

[Val89]

also bold red! that sure helps single out stuff! gotta touch that sparingly though

To tell a secret, I spent far too long with the preview button trying different ways to highlight the information, all the while thinking specifically of you and your "eye glaze over" comment.

At one point, I even spoliered it with a "Important information, click here!" tag, to reduce the apparent visual length of the post so you and others like you might think "oh, short post, might read that"

[Psyche]

well you know what they say
laziness breeds innovation

[Psyche]

Or rather is it not dodgy?

Is anti-town as an SE in a newbie game not scummy?

I mean, no. But also I'm probably being hyperbolic anyway. Nancy's not literally active lurking...or is she? I'm maybe more ambivalent than my post suggests. I mean her iso does have reads and reasonings in it. Just not the red meat I get the most help from.