Newbie 2070 - Airplanes | GAME OVER

[JamesTheNames]

Or rather is it not dodgy?

Is anti-town as an SE in a newbie game not scummy?

I mean, no. But also I'm probably being hyperbolic anyway. Nancy's not literally active lurking...or is she? I'm maybe more ambivalent than my post suggests. I mean her iso does have reads and reasonings in it. Just not the red meat I get the most help from.

I'd say having the majority of her last 42 posts being explaining one strand of meta is pretty close to lurking in terms of what it achieves.

[Roden]

I can tell you with some degree of certainty that Psyche is town.

Certainty? How so?

Wait...

T3, if you're doing what I think you're doing I'm gonna laugh my ass off so hard.

[Psyche]

tbf nancy

can

be the sort to get wrapped up in these sorts of conflicts in general, so it's not clear if we should treat that as alignment-indicative either
a little meta dive could do a lot of work here perhaps

[Val89]

T3, if you're doing what I think you're doing I'm gonna laugh my ass off so hard.

If he

is

doing what I think you think that T3 is doing, do we think that scum don't already think that he was doing what I think that you think that he was doing, and thus we should probably confirm one way of another?

[Roden]

It's the single-minded intensity. I'm far from a mafia veteran and I haven't played any mafia at all in forever, but when I WAS playing, scum *loved* shit like this because it got Town arguing among themselves and took the heat off them.

Meh, I don't see it that way. I appreaciate scum love it if it TvT, but that fact alone isn't a justifcation why it must be TvT here. Sure, if we are TvT I am sure scum are pissing themselves laughing at us, but it isn't something scum get to invoke or control at all, and just because it might seem 'single-minded' I don't think that can identify it one way or another. I would hardly expect scum to just roll over and be "eh, fair enough, you got me".

In fact, the single-mindness of it may well indicate that I (and everyone else) have fallen into exactly the trap a theorectical scum!Nancy intended us to. The whole focus has been on the 'alt thing', and how me and Nancy ended up 'arguing' about it, and we seem to have forgotten (me included, in fact), that the 'alt thing' was only a small, and frankly not all that important, part of what pinged me as scummy about her in the first place. James has picked up in more detail in 370 what I was trying to express in my first paragraph on 192.

I do still think it's odd, but I am happy to entertain the idea that I am wrong about the alt thing, and the stuff about the two afk slots as being NAI (I admitted it was weak in isolation in the post itself), and I still think there is enough in the odd-ness of Nancy's play and posting upto then, and in her reaction, to say there is good cause to scumlean her slot regardless.

I've stated why I think her reaction was scum-indicative rather than an abrasive TvT reaction a few times, but I am worried other town may well have glossed over it and the clear scumpings have just been lost in the noise; so I'll post a couple of snippets from that reaction I think sum up why I am concerned. I am aware Nancy will complain I'm quoting relevant parts, rather than the whole posts, and probably try screaming I'm misrepresenting her by doing so, but if I do so then eyes will glaze over again, so sod it. If you see the issue, you can go and read the whole posts you so know I'm not trying to pull a fast one on anyone here.

We have 6 days and

I only vote when I feel confident about it.

If you weren’t a newbie, I promise I’d already be voting you for the two obviously untrue misreps.

However, you’re wanting to metadive me actually looks townie

so hopefully you don’t butcher that as well.

Actually I kind’ve like this.

I’m going to lean wrong town for now

but if he continues to misrep my posts, that will change.

VOTE: Val89

I’m really getting irritated with your attitude. Do better.

Very next post:

I don’t even have a read on you

but I feel like you’re trying to bully and intimidate me with your tone

This is a bit more convincing than the last thing you tunneled on. However, I can't help but feel like this is just an attempt to get Blurry/James slot out of the hot seat by trying to bring focus on someone else. There's a chance it's genuine and you're actually on to something with your suspicions on Nancy, but James jumping on this line of thought gives me bad vibes.

At this point, I'm inclined to believe there's at least one scum between the three of you.

[Roden]

T3, if you're doing what I think you're doing I'm gonna laugh my ass off so hard.

If he

is

doing what I think you think that T3 is doing, do we think that scum don't already think that he was doing what I think that you think that he was doing, and thus we should probably confirm one way of another?

I don't think you know what I'm referring to lol.

In Newbie 2065, T3 and I were scum, and he fake soft claimed a Masonry with someone who was about to be mis-elim'd on Day 1 in order to carry them on to be mis-elim'd on a different day. T3's "degree of certainty" is giving me really similar vibes. If he's ballsy enough to do a similar play right in front of me, then I'll laugh because that would be such a T3 thing to do lol.

[JamesTheNames]

@Roden is your 429 implying you think me and Val89 are scum partners?

[Val89]

Well, I was assuming a town!T3 doing it, but essentially yes, that's what I thought was going on here, although obviously not with the goal of avoiding a lim, since I don't figure the Psyche slot is in a huge amount of danger at present.

It feels a little icky to drag it into the light as overtly as this, but I figure if it's obvious to two players, the chances are it's already being discussed in the mafia PT, so it perhaps won't do much damage to talk about it.

[JamesTheNames]

Val89 if it is an early day thing from T3 I've noticed it and I don't think thats a good idea.

[Nancy Drew 39]

hi marashu!
i'm voting blurryx!

Thanks, fixed - M

everyone should be voting blurryx. i even think that should be the lynch for today!

@James, how are you getting this post was meant for scum chat? He’s talking about votes.

Unless this is the wrong post because this is what I got when I clicked that link?

310

Due to my dyslexia I have all posts set to descending, so that makes more sense. Still think it could be NAI though.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Regarding the votes on me, one is a prod vote, Psyche's was something I unfortunately can't answer, and Roden seems suspicious.
233 feels like he null reads Blurryx here, 258 feels like he scum reads here. I just find it strange how he appears to have a case on Nancy, but when it doesn't cause a wagon he jumps onto Blurryx's. Scum lean.

While my predecessor did place his vote during the RVS stage, I think it was actually well placed unknowingly.
73 and 269 strikes me as rather hypocritical, it was addressed, kind of. I'm very curious why Psyche in 310 claimed he was being overeager. You agree with whom? I reread every post between 269 and 310 any a time and didn't see anyone bring up 269 nor comment on it. I honestly feel like this is a scumslip that was meant to be in the scum chat but they messed up.
As such my vote is staying here.

314 is scummy. The only reason to hide reasoning would be because you'd be outing a power role. This clearly isn't the case. You have a scum read and 2 nulls.

Nancy is null, her whole reasoning for town reading Mo is meta, that isn't valid in my eyes, most certainly not as a main justification.

My null read is Nancy, my scum leans are Roden and Chuck, and my scum read is Psyche.

Why no townreads?

Not to make it too obvious but everyone else is town lean or town read. By process of elimination of them not being mentioned as Null or Scum.

It’s only obvious now.

[T3]

This time I actually have a good reason for tring Psyche. Same logic aplies to Val andClark..

[Nancy Drew 39]

Nancy claims that, at a point in time, there was at least 1 scum on GrandpaMo's wagon. At that point in time, Lunarrest, ClarkBar, Psyche and T3 were all on or hovering about the Wagon. In the same post she claims its neither ClarkBar nor Lunarrest. Meaning T3 or Psyche. Her next post implies she thinks T3 is a town lean, she also said "Psyche’s probably town.", so if the scum were to be Psyche here in her eyes, it changed after 190 Basically I just think what she said was fluff to claim she has ideas of who is scum and who isn't.

While having an alt and keeping it to yourself isn't scummy, hiding information from town is when the information benefits town. I also think meta reliance, not meta as a guideline but meta reliance, is inherently scummy, it just provides fake reasoning, making it look like you're inputting when you aren't at all.

After ISOing Nancy I can actually see a Nancy/GrandpaMo team being a thing, Her whole reasoning for being against the Mo wagon was Meta, and 147 just seems too convenient, as if she told Mo how to act in a mafia PM, then can just brush away everything Mo did or didn't do under the rug of Meta.

Unfortunately if you couldn't tell I thoroughly dislike and don't support Meta-reliant reads.

Also the vote on Val89 just feels like revenge voting from my perspective. Is it OMGUS? I can't remember which the right acronym is, but the one which is like "you voted me you SCUM!".

UNVOTE: Psyche
VOTE: Nancy Drew 39

And even if that was actually true, how does it make me scum?

Do a metadive on me if you think that’s in anyway even remotely scum indicative for me.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also the vote on Val89 just feels like revenge voting from my perspective. Is it OMGUS? I can't remember which the right acronym is, but the one which is like "you voted me you SCUM!".

Yeah, voting (or scumreading) someone because they start scumreading you is "Oh My God U Suck!“, but it's not always a scummy thing in itself. Remember town doesn't know who the scum are, and are actively looking for things to identify the scum. If you are town, then the only thing you know for sure is that you are town so if someone starts a scum case on you, you can't help but wonder if it's engineered, and that can prompt you to start scum casing them back without it being deliberate. A town can OMGUS another town very easily.

Nancy's vote on me doesn't even seem like OMGUS, though. She hasn't explicitly said so, but to me she has implied several times she reads me as 'wrong town' .

Her reaction to my scum case was more in line with NEEs from last game, in the vein of "go there, I dare you, and you are going to get voted." In that game, I pointed it out it was hanging there as an implicit threat against me, and read it as scummy, and it wasn't ever followed through on by NEE - they just decided to night kill me instead.

Nancy's vote on me seems like that follow through to me because I did continue to go there. It was more like an explicit and overt 'I'm voting you because I don't like your attitude, not because I think you are scum', and she wants me to know it - perhaps banking that my apparent inexperience might make me back off. A punishment vote, rather than OMGUS, if you will.

And yeah, I don't see any other way to read it but scummy, to be honest. It was in the last game, and I know it's only a sample size of one, but I think it is in this game too.

I voted you out of frustration but I actually think James could be scum and only voted me because you did.

[Nancy Drew 39]

UNVOTE:

[Nancy Drew 39]

I've been leaning town on Nancy, but Val's convinced me that there really is stuff not to like about her in her ISO. By her own account, I should be taking her votes more seriously than I might someone else's in the game because she purportedly will never make them unless she's confident they'll land on scum. But when I look at her one vote this whole game (for Val!) I just see boring resentment, not any sorting, and definitely nothing afterward to either sharpen or otherwise help propel the town based on the read. She explicitly disavows any read-based motivation a single post later. For these reasons her ISO is super frustrating and hard to distinguish from active lurking. I mean we're now 17 pages, 419 posts, into the game and she has nothing but a bunch of specious null and town reads? It's tough to swallow.

At the same time though, there's little here to positively mark her as scum

if

her meta is consistent with this decision to never meaningfully weigh into the game - which I've only been assuming is the case but I'd bet it is. Val tries to make more of it by marking out apparent contradictions between posts like 183, 202, and 212, but tbh that's small fry shit. Any apparent tension between those posts is resolved by acknowledging that she didn't vote Val because she scumread the slot; she voted it because she was mad at him, and has been ambivalent about admitting as much. Unless there's some reason to interpret that anger as disingenous, that's NAI to me - though antitown in context.

also bold red! that sure helps single out stuff! gotta touch that sparingly though

And the red quotes he singled out are things I definitely don’t say as scum.


@Val, when are you going to do that metadive? Seriously? None of the reason for sr me are even remotely scum indicative for me and anyone who actually did do a metadive on me who actually cares about correctly reading me would see that.

[JamesTheNames]

Nancy claims that, at a point in time, there was at least 1 scum on GrandpaMo's wagon. At that point in time, Lunarrest, ClarkBar, Psyche and T3 were all on or hovering about the Wagon. In the same post she claims its neither ClarkBar nor Lunarrest. Meaning T3 or Psyche. Her next post implies she thinks T3 is a town lean, she also said "Psyche’s probably town.", so if the scum were to be Psyche here in her eyes, it changed after 190 Basically I just think what she said was fluff to claim she has ideas of who is scum and who isn't.

While having an alt and keeping it to yourself isn't scummy, hiding information from town is when the information benefits town. I also think meta reliance, not meta as a guideline but meta reliance, is inherently scummy, it just provides fake reasoning, making it look like you're inputting when you aren't at all.

After ISOing Nancy I can actually see a Nancy/GrandpaMo team being a thing, Her whole reasoning for being against the Mo wagon was Meta, and 147 just seems too convenient, as if she told Mo how to act in a mafia PM, then can just brush away everything Mo did or didn't do under the rug of Meta.

Unfortunately if you couldn't tell I thoroughly dislike and don't support Meta-reliant reads.

Also the vote on Val89 just feels like revenge voting from my perspective. Is it OMGUS? I can't remember which the right acronym is, but the one which is like "you voted me you SCUM!".

UNVOTE: Psyche
VOTE: Nancy Drew 39

And even if that was actually true, how does it make me scum?

Do a metadive on me if you think that’s in anyway even remotely scum indicative for me.

The more you rely on meta for a town case the more obvious it is to me you're scum because you can't come up with anything else.

[JamesTheNames]

I'm not going to waste my time and go through your old games, to use an inaccurate, unreliable way of getting reads, just because you don't want to do anything town sided.

[Nancy Drew 39]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=31062

This is total bs and I actually think you might be scum here and possibly with Psyche with your interactions.

Have I just solved the game?


VOTE: James

I think Val is actually sincere.

[JamesTheNames]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=31062

This is total bs and I actually think you might be scum here and possibly with Psyche with your interactions.

Have I just solved the game?


VOTE: James

I think Val is actually sincere.

Another OMGUS.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm not going to waste my time and go through your old games, to use an inaccurate, unreliable way of getting reads, just because you don't want to do anything town sided.

I just literally posted a link and you’re scumclaiming by refusing to read it because it 100% disproves your case on me.

[JamesTheNames]

I'm not going to waste my time and go through your old games, to use an inaccurate, unreliable way of getting reads, just because you don't want to do anything town sided.

I just literally posted a link and you’re scumclaiming by refusing to read it because it 100% disproves your case on me.

The only less valid way to form reads than meta is to open a random name generator, and it's close.

[Nancy Drew 39]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=31062

This is total bs and I actually think you might be scum here and possibly with Psyche with your interactions.

Have I just solved the game?


VOTE: James

I think Val is actually sincere.

Another OMGUS.

No my vote on Val wasn’t an an omgus and I just posted a link that completely debunked your bs case on me and your response is to outright refuse to read it.

If I’m right, I think there’s a decent chance Psyche is your buddy and you were just distancing him with that initial vote.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm not going to waste my time and go through your old games, to use an inaccurate, unreliable way of getting reads, just because you don't want to do anything town sided.

I just literally posted a link and you’re scumclaiming by refusing to read it because it 100% disproves your case on me.

The only less valid way to form reads than meta is to open a random name generator, and it's close.

Only people who are either scum or completely incapable of reading meta say that.

I OMGUSed every player in that game who sr me and guess what, I was town in that game too.

[Roden]

@Roden is your 429 implying you think me and Val89 are scum partners?

Potentially, sure. It just looks a little too convenient to me. Val doesnt seem to think it's suspicious that you're sheeping their scum read on Nancy. And I don't think Nancy is scum due to the analysis I gave earlier. I could be wrong on all counts, I suppose, but a lot of this is based on Blurry's terrible tiny ISO. I think your predecessor just screwed you over unfortunately.

Well, I was assuming a town!T3 doing it, but essentially yes, that's what I thought was going on here, although obviously not with the goal of avoiding a lim, since I don't figure the Psyche slot is in a huge amount of danger at present.

It feels a little icky to drag it into the light as overtly as this, but I figure if it's obvious to two players, the chances are it's already being discussed in the mafia PT, so it perhaps won't do much damage to talk about it.

Oh I'm sure mafia noticed it. What's weird is that I don't understand why town!T3 does this. Like, yeah, Psyche isn't in danger, so why soft a Masonry here? And why make it so obvious?

This time I actually have a good reason for tring Psyche. Same logic aplies to Val andClark..

Quad Masons?