Newbie 2070 - Airplanes | GAME OVER

[GrandpaMo]

For not voting D1, not weighing in on James at all (he only ever mentions Blurry), and not pursuing his SR of me.

how willing do u want an elim on chuck today and if they flip town, we condemn u

Now I understand the page 2 wagon on you.

ok let me reiterate what i was tryna say here -- i was trying to push the narrative that there is scum in clark and chuck.

i was reaction posting to see what clark would say and how willing they would say yes or no. i believe town won't be that hesitant and wont find a way to fluff around the my question. if they were scum. clark would take this oppourtunity to pin point me as scum or someone else because they know the answer to that question is not that willing because they know they will flip town.

[Val89]

You know, "push the narrative" is such an unfortunate choice of phrase. Coming from you, Grandpa, it may well be NAI, but you don't half make this difficult for us.

You do realise that, if it's a theorectical scum!Grandpa, then getting a mislim today, outting and killing the possible remaining town PR tonight, then chaining that into a second mislim tomorrow is about the only chance that scum!Grandpa has to turn this game around, and that's exactly what you've come out straight away and appear to have done within a few posts of day start?

I know I initially TR'd you in our last game together D1, then mis-read you as scum when you started acting scummy after the D1 flip and into D2, so you have form for this sort of behavior and I'm being a little cautious drawing conclusions from it; but please don't think that because I've been burnt once that means I'll just consider it your meta and that grants you a license to act as scummy as you like today.

If you start acting in a way that is obviously anti-town, such as fishing for PR claims when that isn't going to help town now, or potentially setting up to chain lims onwhat appears to be flimsy justification, I'm going to call it out.

What did you your "reaction post" tell you about Clark? They don't appear to have taken the oppotunity to pinpoint you or someone else as scum, nor jumped at the chance to trade themselves for Chuck, so what is that telling you?

[Chuck Shurley]

I just did an ISO on Blurry, James, and Clark.

131 - Blurry does a wishy-washy read on Clark that gives them plenty of space to slide into whatever read of Clark is convenient later.

James town reads Clark, but only indirectly (333 and 363). He otherwise doesn't offer reads on Clark, and barely mentions him. He does (again) indirectly town-align Clark in his comment to me in 403.

Clark barely mentions Blurry- he "liked" Psyche's read on them (180) but offered no further commentary, and then quoted Blurry's comment on him (131). He doesn't follow up at all, except to ask this:

342
[quote]Quick question to newcomers (and welcome!) how do you feel about the dissolution of the Grandpa wagon and the quick reforming of the James/Blurry slot?[quote]

Which he also doesn't follow up on. In fact the next time he mentions James at all is D2 when he's casting doubt on me for reasons that are negated by the fact that I stated clearly that I had to "stop for now" and that I hadn't finished my reads, and the events he's referring to happened while I was gone.


In summary: Blurry's post is meh, but James was throwing suspicion around like candy while he was here, and Clark has been active enough that it's notable he didn't catch any from James. Clark was asking questions and poking around, but didn't respond to anything James said, when he absolutely should have if his questions were genuine.


Basically...vote Clark and get the job done.

[GrandpaMo]

You know, "push the narrative" is such an unfortunate choice of phrase. Coming from you, Grandpa, it may well be NAI, but you don't half make this difficult for us.

You do realise that, if it's a theorectical scum!Grandpa, then getting a mislim today, outting and killing the possible remaining town PR tonight, then chaining that into a second mislim tomorrow is about the only chance that scum!Grandpa has to turn this game around, and that's exactly what you've come out straight away and appear to have done within a few posts of day start?

I know I initially TR'd you in our last game together D1, then mis-read you as scum when you started acting scummy after the D1 flip and into D2, so you have form for this sort of behavior and I'm being a little cautious drawing conclusions from it; but please don't think that because I've been burnt once that means I'll just consider it your meta and that grants you a license to act as scummy as you like today.

If you start acting in a way that is obviously anti-town, such as fishing for PR claims when that isn't going to help town now, or potentially setting up to chain lims onwhat appears to be flimsy justification, I'm going to call it out.

What did you your "reaction post" tell you about Clark? They don't appear to have taken the oppotunity to pinpoint you or someone else as scum, nor jumped at the chance to trade themselves for Chuck, so what is that telling you?

okay im sorta lost here.

you point out that i am acting in "anti town behavior" i felt as tho i haven't done anything that goes against town? can you please elaborate with examples here? also i explained the reaction post thing in post 650 if it's not clear enough.

again, how is having an opinion that there is scum between clark and chuck anti town? that is my narrative that i AM pushing, because i do think.

unless something happened that i missed out on.

that's why im confused, im just stating a geninue read that i have that appears with one omgussing each other.

also -- again, i justified the pr hunting thing, there is no reason for scum to PR hunt.

there is a difference between figuring out the setup and PR hunting. What I did was more of setup and mechsolving by figuring out the game details and fitting the pieces together. PR hunting / fishing is asking people or pushing narratives on people that would make them eventually out or soft or even accidently slip at times.

[GrandpaMo]

They don't appear to have taken the oppotunity to pinpoint you or someone else as scum, nor jumped at the chance to trade themselves for Chuck, so what is that telling you?

because they haven't answered this yet?

lol.

[GrandpaMo]

also it isn't a reaction post anymore since it has been spoiled-- and the point is lost, therefore making it an NAI statement from now and on. but clark had never responded to what i said.

[GrandpaMo]

You know, "push the narrative" is such an unfortunate choice of phrase. Coming from you, Grandpa, it may well be NAI, but you don't half make this difficult for us.

You do realise that, if it's a theorectical scum!Grandpa, then getting a mislim today, outting and killing the possible remaining town PR tonight, then chaining that into a second mislim tomorrow is about the only chance that scum!Grandpa has to turn this game around, and that's exactly what you've come out straight away and appear to have done within a few posts of day start?

I know I initially TR'd you in our last game together D1, then mis-read you as scum when you started acting scummy after the D1 flip and into D2, so you have form for this sort of behavior and I'm being a little cautious drawing conclusions from it; but please don't think that because I've been burnt once that means I'll just consider it your meta and that grants you a license to act as scummy as you like today.

If you start acting in a way that is obviously anti-town, such as fishing for PR claims when that isn't going to help town now, or potentially setting up to chain lims onwhat appears to be flimsy justification, I'm going to call it out.

What did you your "reaction post" tell you about Clark? They don't appear to have taken the oppotunity to pinpoint you or someone else as scum, nor jumped at the chance to trade themselves for Chuck, so what is that telling you?

I just did an ISO on Blurry, James, and Clark.

131 - Blurry does a wishy-washy read on Clark that gives them plenty of space to slide into whatever read of Clark is convenient later.

James town reads Clark, but only indirectly (333 and 363). He otherwise doesn't offer reads on Clark, and barely mentions him. He does (again) indirectly town-align Clark in his comment to me in 403.

Clark barely mentions Blurry- he "liked" Psyche's read on them (180) but offered no further commentary, and then quoted Blurry's comment on him (131). He doesn't follow up at all, except to ask this:

342

Quick question to newcomers (and welcome!) how do you feel about the dissolution of the Grandpa wagon and the quick reforming of the James/Blurry slot?

Which he also doesn't follow up on. In fact the next time he mentions James at all is D2 when he's casting doubt on me for reasons that are negated by the fact that I stated clearly that I had to "stop for now" and that I hadn't finished my reads, and the events he's referring to happened while I was gone.


In summary: Blurry's post is meh, but James was throwing suspicion around like candy while he was here, and Clark has been active enough that it's notable he didn't catch any from James. Clark was asking questions and poking around, but didn't respond to anything James said, when he absolutely should have if his questions were genuine.


Basically...vote Clark and get the job done.

my point as follows. do you really think tvt behavior continues to stem to day 2?

[Chuck Shurley]

Can TvT tunneling cross day phases? Yes. As one specific example: Town lost in a game I played in quite a while back because two obstinate townies with a scummy play style tunneled on each other all the way to lilo.

If that's not what you're asking, then I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[Val89]

again, how is having an opinion that there is scum between clark and chuck anti town?

It isn't. The problem is apparently being willing to bet the game on it; without being sure. It's fine having the opinion that you think there is the last scum in one or Clark or Chuck because you TR everyone else, and you express that opinion, but I don't think you should be confident enough in those reads to start suggesting we lim today, and if they flip town we lim the other; and potentially set up to lim what might two townies back-to-back. Like I said, that seems like the wincon for a scum!Grandpa, and I find it strange you come out the gate with it. I know you are trying to walk it back now and say it was a "reaction test" and perhaps you weren't being serious, but you have to see how it appears to the rest of us.

because they haven't answered this yet?

Looks to me like they answered it in 645 - 'No; I'm not 100% it's Chuck, and therefore as of this moment I'm not offering myself up in a 1v1, but I think they are most the most likley candidate.' Seems like a resonable position to take.

also -- again, i justified the pr hunting thing, there is no reason for scum to PR hunt.

I think you are taking the piss just a little bit here. I've already said it's blaringly obvious why scum need to PR hunt today - if there is a town PR left, they need to find them and kill them tonight, and nothing will stop them from doing so if they can find them.

What I don't understand is why you think town need to "figure out the setup". We are in Row 2, we know that. If the last PR is a FN, why out them today, only to have mafia kill a conftown tonight? If it is a tracker, then you have to assume they didn't get any information worth outting over last night, so why out them today instead of giving them a second shot at it tonight? There is precisely zero reason for town!Grandpa, or indeed any other townie, to be going setup or mechsolving today, because you only risk "make them eventually out or soft or even accidently slip" today, and get them killed, 100%, tonight. Please don't try and tell me you thought it was a good play to fake doc yesterday, persumably to try and save the PRs, but that you don't understand this simple concept, because I won't believe you.

You said in your 612 that you "always end up throwing for town..." I assumed that, if you are town, that was part of the act to sell your 'accidental' Doc out to scum. You carry this on, though, and potentially that's exactly what you will end up doing; either by getting yourself falsely scumread and mislimmed, or by outting the PR today.

Please, before you reply, just take a few moments to think, and at least consider how it appears to the rest of us.

[ClarkBar]

131 - Blurry does a wishy-washy read on Clark that gives them plenty of space to slide into whatever read of Clark is convenient later.

That's how I feel about your suspicion of me. You go from repeatedly town-reading me to saying I'm leaning sus. That's fine, I get that reads change as things go along. But the reasoning didn't feel thought out to me. I was very clear about why I placed my Grandpa vote and why I removed it. I wasn't being pressured to do so.

131James town reads Clark, but only indirectly (333 and 363). He otherwise doesn't offer reads on Clark, and barely mentions him. He does (again) indirectly town-align Clark in his comment to me in 403.

Ok? To be fair James was scum and in a spat with Nancy for most of the end of D1 and I wasn't posting much.

131Clark barely mentions Blurry- he "liked" Psyche's read on them (180) but offered no further commentary, and then quoted Blurry's comment on him (131). He doesn't follow up at all, except to ask this: 342

Which he also doesn't follow up on. In fact the next time he mentions James at all is D2 when he's casting doubt on me for reasons that are negated by the fact that I stated clearly that I had to "stop for now" and that I hadn't finished my reads, and the events he's referring to happened while I was gone.

Blurry had one substantive post. I liked Psyche's critique of it, but I was also suspicious of Psyche and wanted to engage him more. Plus I suspected Blurry wasn't coming back and was waiting for a replacement. I did ask Blurry a question about that post but he never returned. Rodan responded to 342 and I followed up to that. I thought the dissolution of the Grandpa wagon was interesting, but in the end I guess that's just me. Ended up not mattering.

131In summary: Blurry's post is meh, but James was throwing suspicion around like candy while he was here, and Clark has been active enough that it's notable he didn't catch any from James. Clark was asking questions and poking around, but didn't respond to anything James said, when he absolutely should have if his questions were genuine.

So your case on me is that James didn't come at me? That James didn't respond to a question that was not specifically for him?

What I cannot defend is that my activity dropped near the end of D1. I do have to own that, and it looks bad. I was sick and had other life stuff and my engagement with this game dipped. When I checked in here and there I was met with another Nancy fight with entire posts being quoted, an odd T3 post, and then boom D1 ends. I had to read much of the end of D1 (mostly the claim stuff) this morning for the first time. Bad on me, sorry. At least I had a vote placed on a slot I thought was suspicious.

And that is my issue with you. You threw out mild reads on D1 but never placed a vote on either of your scumreads. When you do finally place a vote on D2 it's essentially an OMGUS vote. I just don't think your case on me is strong enough to characterize your vote any other way.

Basically...vote Clark and get the job done.

And the certainty in this sentence feels wrong.

[ClarkBar]

I clearly stated I still had work to do before adjusting all my reads, and the day ended before I could get back to do that.

Since my read on Blurry was correct and I've nitpicked multiple places where Clark's posts don't make sense from a town perspective, this is where I'm staying.

I appreciate being busy, but you had time to place a vote especially after having given scumreads. You just didn't want to commit.

I don't appreciate you taking credit for having a correct scumread when you weren't on the wagon or really pushing that slot in a meaningful way. And if your "nitpicking" my posts is a reference to 410 then I have to say that is a pretty weak sauce.

[Roden]

For not voting D1, not weighing in on James at all (he only ever mentions Blurry), and not pursuing his SR of me.

how willing do u want an elim on chuck today and if they flip town, we condemn u

Now I understand the page 2 wagon on you.

ok let me reiterate what i was tryna say here -- i was trying to push the narrative that there is scum in clark and chuck.

i was reaction posting to see what clark would say and how willing they would say yes or no. i believe town won't be that hesitant and wont find a way to fluff around the my question. if they were scum. clark would take this oppourtunity to pin point me as scum or someone else because they know the answer to that question is not that willing because they know they will flip town.

I don't think that kind of gambit works in this situation. On Day 2 with one scum left, the final scum has equal reason to both play aggressively and play cautiously. Hesitance is NAI at this point because scum

knows

they are in enough of a precarious situation that town will look for hesitance in players. If anything, we should look at who was hesitant to vote James, as they started looking more and more scummy as they started flailing towards the end of Day 1.

Also, don't really like that you're admitting to trying to push a narrative. I tend to scum lean anyone who goes for open wolf strats or anything that's so overtly anti-town like that. Like, I don't know how this is supposed to help us sort you.

[Roden]

Like, am I just reading it wrong, or is there just miscommunication going on between them?

Doing this running commentary on the spat between Nancy and Val and watching the temperature rise between them is interesting. Clash of personalities? Something doesn't seem organic here.

I don't want to be overly paranoid, but we got quite a bit out of very little.

This doesn't confirm him as town, but this post made town lean Clark yesterday and makes me feel better about it after James' flip. It feels like we were both on the same page, and if he was James' scum partner I feel like he would've dismissed my post instead.

[Roden]

Also want to throw in that I feel like it's safe to town lock Nancy. James vs Nancy didn't read as scum vs scum to me at all.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I didn’t expect it to be Psyche, I actually thought he could be Jame’ buddy. If T3 and Mo were fakeclaiming to protect Psyche, then they’re both probably town. I had T3 as a townlock anyway.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Sorry, folks. It was a busy weekend for me so I wasn't particularly active, but I read through the last few pages and I have some thoughts I want to get out there:

We have 8 days guys, no need to rush anything. Wrt to Mo, I miselimed him in a past game. He could be scum here or limbait. Some people are naturally scummy players. It would be nice if we had some time to actually see he’s really the best elim or not.

He isn’t playing extremely differently here from the game I miselimed him in so I’m wary.

This post suggests town to me. If someone were scum, I don't know if they would be wanting to inject doubt into the primary bus this early on. It could be waffling, but to me the more likely scenario is town trying to play carefully and make sure that they aren't just getting rid of someone who is unlikeable but isn't scum.

The E-1 early on is probably a good thing, because it's the catalyst that is getting people talking (provided no quick-hammer). Without it, I'm not sure people would be talking as much this early on in the game (although I'm not super familiar with how the early games really go usually).

Thoughts on some other players:

@Psyche

Hasn't really posted anything of substance. Hopped on the wagon early (I guess technically started it, was he 2nd vote on Grandpa?) but I feel like RVS doesn't go anywhere without those first few steps. A few jokes, but nothing that can really be analyzed other than #67. Writing that, but not unvoting could be a way of distancing himself from any blame if wagon ends up lynching town. Kind of like a "see, I'm not a scum who was pushing the wagon, I had doubts about it".

@Clarkbar

Contributing more of substance than the others. I buy his reasoning for putting someone to 4 votes, as has been proven, it is a good way to provoke discussion, which gives more information to work with. I don't think there's anything I want to specifically highlight in his posts, he seems to be asking questions and sharing his thoughts, but I don't think there's anything I can see that tells me anything about his particular leanings.

One thing that did strike me was in

@T3

Similar to Psyche in that there wasn't much substance there, just hopping on the wagon and pressing it. Could be Psyche/T3 scum team (can two SEs be mafia in the same game?) but that would be kind of convenient.

@Grandpa

I don't interpret him voting for himself as scummy as you others do. If I could summarize his defense it is: nobody has built a convincing case on me yet and hammering me early cuts off any further discussion for the day, neither of which tell me anything one way or another. I'm curious to see how this develops over the course of the day.

@LunarEclipse

Self-deprecation aside, they've had one post of any substance #79. I'm not as convinced as Nancy is that this is a town-leaning post, because I think that assuming someone can't put themselves into the mindset of town just because this is their first game on this forum. I think I need to see more posts from them before I develop any ideas of leaning.

I think that covers everyone so far. For now I think keeping Grandpa as the lead contender for the guillotine is the right move, as they do have an erratic posting style that may cause confusion later in the game, but hopefully there is something more substantive to base a day 1 lynch off of in the next few days, and we haven't yet heard from the two AFK players.

I think Mo spewed town by this.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Official Vote Count 1.11

DeHavilland Twin Otter

---

Elimination

JamesTheNames

(5): Roden, T3, Nancy Drew 39, Psyche, Val89

<==HAMMER

Nancy Drew 39

(2): JamesTheNames

Psyche

(1): ClarkBar

Not Voting

(2): GrandpaMo, Chuck Shurley

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-07-06 10:00:49).

Mod notes:

An Elimination has been achieved.

I don’t think scum bussed, so I think James’ partner is likely offwagon and I think Blurry spewed Mo town, so it’s probably between Chuck and Clark.

I’m seriously overgamed af, so I will try do some more reteading later.

[GrandpaMo]

Official Vote Count 1.11

DeHavilland Twin Otter

---

Elimination

JamesTheNames

(5): Roden, T3, Nancy Drew 39, Psyche, Val89

<==HAMMER

Nancy Drew 39

(2): JamesTheNames

Psyche

(1): ClarkBar

Not Voting

(2): GrandpaMo, Chuck Shurley

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-07-06 10:00:49).

Mod notes:

An Elimination has been achieved.

I don’t think scum bussed, so I think James’ partner is likely offwagon and I think Blurry spewed Mo town, so it’s probably between Chuck and Clark.

I’m seriously overgamed af, so I will try do some more reteading later.

honestly thats how i feel rn lmao im like modding and there has been like 4 games i have been in -- im just ready to get this game done with.

[Chuck Shurley]

Claiming my vote is OMGUS is utterly absurd, Clark.

[Chuck Shurley]

You also nearly side stepped the fact that you and Blurry/James nearly side stepped any associations in D1, for good or ill.

[GrandpaMo]

Claiming my vote is OMGUS is utterly absurd, Clark.

actually i did

[Chuck Shurley]

Neatly, not nearly. Also apparently I like to repeat myself. Anyway. Point stands.

Grandpa, Clark did too.

[GrandpaMo]

Looks to me like they answered it in 645 - 'No; I'm not 100% it's Chuck, and therefore as of this moment I'm not offering myself up in a 1v1, but I think they are most the most likley candidate.' Seems like a resonable position to take.

oh didnt even see that lol

hol up

[GrandpaMo]

Grandpa, Clark did too.

thanks for the credit xx

[GrandpaMo]

For not voting D1, not weighing in on James at all (he only ever mentions Blurry), and not pursuing his SR of me.

how willing do u want an elim on chuck today and if they flip town, we condemn u

If I were 100% on Chuck being scum I'd take you up on that. As it is I feel that slot is the best place for my vote for the reasons provided. We can debate that reasoning, and as that debate goes on how sure I am about whether or not Chuck is scum will go up or down.

For not voting D1, not weighing in on James at all (he only ever mentions Blurry), and not pursuing his SR of me.

how willing do u want an elim on chuck today and if they flip town, we condemn u

Now I understand the page 2 wagon on you.

ok let me reiterate what i was tryna say here -- i was trying to push the narrative that there is scum in clark and chuck.

i was reaction posting to see what clark would say and how willing they would say yes or no. i believe town won't be that hesitant and wont find a way to fluff around the my question. if they were scum. clark would take this oppourtunity to pin point me as scum or someone else because they know the answer to that question is not that willing because they know they will flip town.

look how my logic alligns wit clark's response.

you tell me thru the options i proposed , what this seems like