Newbie 2072: All Guns Blazing!! - Ended

[Portia]

I think pressure on more slots I the way to do. Right now I would pressure Astro if I had pressuring. Skill. Pablo did well enough to answer my first day questions. A

[Val89]

I'm quite enjoying watching you talk yourself into a hole as if you have any chance you are going to get a Val flip today. "If I am wrong..."

I'm going to enjoy seeing how you desperately try to back pedal and scream how you were simply just shit, tunneled town all along. I can already see you trying to set yourself up for that in posts like 251 and 252 and it's transparent as hell.

[Lukewarm]

I mean, look at this wildly unprompted / unnecessary defense of Portia, when Umlaut mentioned having suspicion on Portia, but Umlaut was not even voting him:

Spoiler:

This or Portia look like good wagons to me rn. Neither have given me any reason to think they're town over the course of 8 pages.

I find the offering up of Portia as the second "good wagon" as little strange. Umlaut commented on a huge chunk of the thread in 199, but the only thing I see in reference to Portia are two comments; first that he "like

Portia's intro" and the second that 166 is "way over-the-top reaction from Portia and I don't like it" - something Portia has already acknoldged and appologised for in 166.

There isn't a lot in Portia's iso, but it's enough to just start pinging him as town for me; and that's based on 112, 120, 168-169 and the second part of 196. All of which has gone without comment in Umlaut's 199. It is notable in it's absense.

Umlaut concludes that neither Zyla nor Portia has given him "any reason to think they're town". Can I ask, Umlaut, when you say "I like Portia's intro", do you mean it in a difference sense to 'Portia's intro seems town'?

imo, this was either a partner defense, or a pocket attempt by Val

[Lukewarm]

But the thing that really made it stand out was that that was the ONLY think that Val felt like responding to in all of Umlaut's catch up posts

[alstroemerial]

At this point having read both the ISOs, I'm reasonably confident Luke is town. He has been the main instigator for most of this, and I would really not expect scum to keep bringing this up, going so hard, and drawing so much attention. He has also basically set himself up for an elim if Val flips town, which is not something that scum would do (unless this is next-level bussing, which I think there's just no way). He has also just been doing more productive in general besides the Val interaction. Now, that does include the possibility that this is TvT, and I'm honestly not convinced that it isn't. But if I had to pick, I would pick Val. I haven't seen a confirmed scum!Val yet, but I'm getting a really different vibe than 2068. It could in part be that Val didn't get as much serious heat in 2068. To summarize where I'm at, I'm TR on Luke and a slight SL on Val. I still don't have enough from Umlaut, Not_Mafia, and Portia to really feel confident about Val, but I agree that limming in {Luke, Val} is helpful and between the two would rather do Val.

I don't want to vote because that would bring Val to E-2 aka "NM E-1" and I don't want to go there when there is so much of the day left.


Now some catch up stuff:

At the time of [my] voting, your ISO .. had mostly questions to other people (68, 70, 84, 119) ... and ... which is fair but in my opinion not the most productive area of focus.

How come? Questions seem essential in this game to me, they let you see where people are coming from, and can be helpful in both creating useful cases and discarding poor ones. Readlists and the like are useful, but IME they're most useful in something that you talk about with other people - when they ask questions about them

Yes, I agree questions are useful to keep the conversation going, clarify points, etc. This is part of why I said I liked the balance between questions and opinions from Marci. But that's the thing, if you're almost

only

asking questions but not giving any takes yourself, I see that as less helpful.

Things I want to know: why Zola and Astro haven’t made any impression on me so far.

I'm going to bed soon but AMA and I'll get back to you! Even if it's not full "pressuring", just feel free to do whatever. Voting me is pressure? Also please feel more than free to respond to 237. However, it does seem like maybe playing while in your state might not be the most optimal.

I don’t want to eliminate Val or Luke. They keep thread Alice to an e stent I think town suffers regardless of the flip. I want to see where they push off each other. Bet that might just be me.

No, not just you, I do see this. I think there is a lot of value in the interaction and I'm generally in favor of keeping talkative productive people alive if we're in doubt. But I also think the interaction is reaching the limit of its usefulness, in that I don't know how much farther they can push off each other.

[Lukewarm]

I'm quite enjoying watching you talk yourself into a hole as if you have any chance you are going to get a Val flip today. "If I am wrong..."

I'm going to enjoy seeing how you desperately try to back pedal and scream how you were simply just shit, tunneled town all along. I can already see you trying to set yourself up for that in posts like 251 and 252 and it's transparent as hell.

Oh no, that is never going to happen

@Everyone -- if I vote for anyone other then Val before the end of Day 1, please take that as a scum claim, and hammer me with impunity

[Lukewarm]

I'm quite enjoying watching you talk yourself into a hole as if you have any chance you are going to get a Val flip today. "If I am wrong..."

I'm going to enjoy seeing how you desperately try to back pedal and scream how you were simply just shit, tunneled town all along. I can already see you trying to set yourself up for that in posts like 251 and 252 and it's transparent as hell.

This is also a very scummy post in and of itself.

The, "if I am wrong" is in regards to my associative read on Portia.

I think that there is a sizable chance that I am the night kill tonight, so I do think that it is prudent to let people know that my scum read on Portia is an associative one, and how that would adjust based on your flip

[Val89]

I would really not expect scum to keep bringing this up, going so hard, and drawing so much attention. He has also basically set himself up for an elim if Val flips town, which is not something that scum would do

Are you in agreement then that if something comes to light that leads you to be confident I am not scum, you are prepared to vote off Luke without hestitation?

[Lukewarm]

Val is not even pretending anymore to be trying to sort me.

There for a while, he tried to play the part of "actively trying hard to read everything this game through the lens of "is there an alternative explanation for this, could this slot, while doing some things you think are scummy not actually be scummy." - post 115

But now he is 100% sure that I am scum, is openly saying it, and has nothing to back it up other then the fact that I am pushing him.

[alstroemerial]

I would really not expect scum to keep bringing this up, going so hard, and drawing so much attention. He has also basically set himself up for an elim if Val flips town, which is not something that scum would do

Are you in agreement then that if something comes to light that leads you to be confident I am not scum, you are prepared to vote off Luke without hestitation?

I know I said I was going to bed soon, but just a quick no, I think you're misunderstanding. What I mean is that I think scum would never set themselves up so hard for elimination, and so even if you were town I would be hesitant to vote off Luke.

[Val89]

but I agree that limming in {Luke, Val} is helpful

But if you limmed Val, and I flipped town, then you

still

wouldn't feel comfortable flipping Luke? How it is helpful in sorting the other slot, then?

[Val89]

As an aside, I've not played with him before, I think we can take not_mafia at his word that he won't lolhammer in Newbie games, so I wouldn't recommend allowing that to cloud your judgement if you think a vote is warranted, here.

[Lukewarm]

but I agree that limming in {Luke, Val} is helpful

But if you limmed Val, and I flipped town, then you

still

wouldn't feel comfortable flipping Luke? How it is helpful in sorting the other slot, then?

It would still be helpful in sorting other slots -- because it is the thing that most people have commented on

For example Porita:

Your flip says a lot about their alignment

A scum flip implicates them as possibly being your partner.

But, if there is some wild world where we are tvt, Portia recommending we should not elim either one of us is enough to town lock them from my pov

[Val89]

Give over, there is zero chance are TvT. You've basically claimed scum at this point, and are only hoping you can throw out enough "please vote with me, I've been right before" appeals to rustle up enough votes to get a mislim, but it ain't happening.

I'm not sure who you are hoping to convince when you have to back pedal - you've already said everyone should consider you voting anyone else as a scum claim, so it looks like that ship has sailed to me. What are you going to do, sit on your hands the rest of day one without voting anyone and hope the rest of us turn on Portia or someone without seeing either of us flip?

[Lukewarm]

lmao

[Lukewarm]

I am sure that Val is going to try and spin this as me trying to back out of my push on him, so I want to make it clear that that is not the case

Spoiler: To Preface:

I do not want to back out. I still think that Val is scum, I still think that Val is by far the best elim for the day, and I still think that if we are not shooting val today, I am probably the second best choice, and I still want people to join me on the Val wagon, and I still think that everyone should treat me voting anyone other then Val as a scum claim.

--------

All of that being said, I am actually starting to feel bad. T.T

I feel like I am going too hard for the newbie queue and think that this should probably be my last game in this queue for a while :/

I am like 99% sure that Val is scum here, but I am going to try (emphasis on try) to not go so hard anymore, because I don't want to be the reason that someone does not want to keep playing on site.

I think I am going to try and force myself to let the thread breath by limiting myself to like ~3 posts per irl day, until the last 36 hours of the dead line at which point I will go back into "whip up the votes against Val" mode

-----------------

@Val, I am sorry if I made this game unfun for you, I am just really, really sure you are scum


Please consider this:

Post 1/3 for 7/9/21

[Val89]

The lamo defence - for when the 'lol' defence isn't quite scummy enough.

Don't worry, I'm not entirely if you were actually concerned about my feelings or if it's theatre for the benefit of others, but if the former, rest assured that you've not made the game unfun for me at all.

We are all going to have a good laugh about your 234 in a couple of days time, I am sure. It's situations like this make me glad I signed up to play.

[ArcAngel9]

Vote Count 1-5

Portia :

Pavowski :

alstroemerial

alstroemerial :

Zyla :

marcistar,Umlaut

Lukewarm :

Val89,

Val89 :

Portia, Lukewarm

Not_Mafia :

,

Umlaut :

Not_Mafia,

marcistar :

Not Voting

: , , Pavowski, , Zyla

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: July 16, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-07-16 12:50:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[alstroemerial]

but I agree that limming in {Luke, Val} is helpful

But if you limmed Val, and I flipped town, then you

still

wouldn't feel comfortable flipping Luke? How it is helpful in sorting the other slot, then?

A Val flip would give information for sorting Portia, Umlaut, and Marci in my opinion. Not so much info on Luke. A Luke flip, while I’m opposed to it, would admittedly give a ton of information on almost everyone. I do not need help sorting the other slot because I feel like I’ve pretty much already sorted it, but I acknowledge that a Luke flip would tell us a lot more than, say, an Umlaut flip or a Marci flip.

In other words: those two options would both give a ton of information which is why I think either could be useful, but I would prefer to lim Val because I’m pretty sure Luke is town. However, if everyone was like “nah let’s do Luke” I wouldn’t be thrilled but I would take the info.

I’ll agree to trust NM and VOTE: Val to stake my position but if it seems like we’re on track to hammer to fast this is coming off.

Sorry for any bad formatting I’m mobileposting.

[Pavowski]

A self-vote? Yuck.

Luke, the fact you've played 2 nearly flawless games doesn't move me the way I think you want it to.

I think your read on Val is mostly confirmation bias if it isn't outright scummy. Your self-vote gives me pause as far as thinking you're scum, but seeing as you were nowhere near elimination when it happened, I am less moved.

While I agree that a Luke/Val elim probably yields good information today, I'm not sold on it for d1 yet.

[Pavowski]

but I agree that limming in {Luke, Val} is helpful

But if you limmed Val, and I flipped town, then you

still

wouldn't feel comfortable flipping Luke? How it is helpful in sorting the other slot, then?

A Val flip would give information for sorting Portia, Umlaut, and Marci in my opinion. Not so much info on Luke. A Luke flip, while I’m opposed to it, would admittedly give a ton of information on almost everyone. I do not need help sorting the other slot because I feel like I’ve pretty much already sorted it, but I acknowledge that a Luke flip would tell us a lot more than, say, an Umlaut flip or a Marci flip.

In other words: those two options would both give a ton of information which is why I think either could be useful, but I would prefer to lim Val because I’m pretty sure Luke is town. However, if everyone was like “nah let’s do Luke” I wouldn’t be thrilled but I would take the info.

I’ll agree to trust NM and VOTE: Val to stake my position but if it seems like we’re on track to hammer to fast this is coming off.

Sorry for any bad formatting I’m mobileposting.

At this point having read both the ISOs, I'm reasonably confident Luke is town. He has been the main instigator for most of this, and I would really not expect scum to keep bringing this up, going so hard, and drawing so much attention. He has also basically set himself up for an elim if Val flips town, which is not something that scum would do (unless this is next-level bussing, which I think there's just no way). He has also just been doing more productive in general besides the Val interaction. Now, that does include the possibility that this is TvT, and I'm honestly not convinced that it isn't. But if I had to pick, I would pick Val. I haven't seen a confirmed scum!Val yet, but I'm getting a really different vibe than 2068. It could in part be that Val didn't get as much serious heat in 2068. To summarize where I'm at, I'm TR on Luke and a slight SL on Val. I still don't have enough from Umlaut, Not_Mafia, and Portia to really feel confident about Val, but I agree that limming in {Luke, Val} is helpful and between the two would rather do Val.

I don't want to vote because that would bring Val to E-2 aka "NM E-1" and I don't want to go there when there is so much of the day left.

I am just curious it you are actually scumreading Val for anything in this thread or if, as you seem to say in 279, it's basically a case based on meta.

[Zyla]

Umlaut - Null

[*]140 -- another tell here: explicitly saying "I'm unvoting because it's not RVS" as if RVS were a formalized game phase is something that more often comes from scum

Hold on a moment there, I unvoted because I didn't feel

my

RVS vote was necessary, no it's not a formal stage, but I didn't feel that my vote would be useful any further so I retracted it.

There's not really any good way to engage with someone who is insisting you are mafia, though. Like what is he supposed to say, "Oh well you make a good point there, maybe I'm scum after all"?

"I can see where you're coming from, but here's why I did it as town" seems reasonable to me

[Zyla]

Luke and Val - SvT
Honestly, this is just a total mess. I was trying to read opposite of what my gut was telling me, but Luke was making a lot of sense, and I was agreeing with him and thinking he was town. Then comes 239. I... have no words tbh, I don't know how this could ever be a good move in this situation. And then he starts begging for votes on Val, and honestly becomes the most confusing 1v1 I've read so far. I do find it hard to believe that they're both town, and even harder that they're both scum, at this point, but I don't think it's clear at this point who's who.

If we do elim within [me, Val], and the consensus is to flip me -- then Val should always be investigated if we have any investigative abilities.

If you're as sure as you claim to be about this, then to me Val seems almost like an auto-elim tomorrow if you flip town, and you an almost auto-elim tomorrow if Val flips town. Why would I want to investigate you overnight? And if it's anything but Cop, would it even be worth it? I doubt scum team would have someone under so much suspicion do the kill

[alstroemerial]

I am just curious it you are actually scumreading Val for anything in this thread or if, as you seem to say in 279, it's basically a case based on meta.

I am getting pinged, though more of a lean than as firm a read as Luke has. While lacking quite the vitriol that Portia had that one time, Val still seemed strangely prickly from the start at getting questioned. Combine that with both the weird back-and-forth of his stance on Luke, as if he's trying to toe the line between how far is a total OMGUS and 217. Also, Luke has made a notable effort to prod at other slots prior to (IRL) today/yesterday, but Val has mostly been defending except for the thing with Umlaut and Portia. To be fair, that could be because Val has RL obligations and Luke is demanding more time, but it's just another thing on the pile.

[Val89]

"I can see where you're coming from, but here's why I did it as town" seems reasonable to me

I would agree - if there is the slightest chance you can see where someone is coming from, and in Luke's case, I can't in the slightest.

For all the text the wall post contains, it appears to essentially boil down to "Val has been shitposting, now he says he's stopped shit posting, but how can be sure? I don't think his read on me can be genuine because although he says he was shitposting I think he wasn't and is only saying he was now because I was scum reading him."

Fine. I can understand when there isn't much to go on in the early game, you have to generate your reads from very little, and I was basically the loudest voice and was using it to say some deliberately spicy things; just as I did in 2068. If you did only read it in a very surface level manner, and later read "My reason for dressing up an RVS vote in the amount of verbiage I did was to make sure there was at least something substantial to discuss" you might misunderstand that to mean I actually believed some of the crap I wrote in the RVS vote and I don't intend to shit post going forward; but I explained that wasn't the case in 93. Perhaps that was glossed over by a tunneled town!Luke? Might explain it, he says a few times he's worried that's the case himself; but then comes 127.

He says he slept on it, re-read everything, and has come to the conclusion that I am just scum. I am just scum because I've openly claimed that we should already plan on Not_Mafia being the Day 1 elim, I've accused him of defending Not_Mafia, and I've seriously criticized him for having not done a full meta dive before voting on page 2. I've come out of the gates and openly claimed I am big scum in a transparent and obvious way, and you are all fucking big dummies for not seeing it.

I think if this argument had come from, say, not_mafia, you would have all laughed and assumed it was a troll; but the fact that it's come from Luke means it gets some credibility? I'm not buying it in the slightest, and I am really, really shocked that anyone is giving it the time of day.

Since there are two players now that I thought based on previous experience were going to read that wall post, then rip this obvscum argument a new one in seconds, but actually haven't, I have to come to the conclusion that maybe it isn't quite as obvious as I first thought; so if you want me to actually respond to the case, someone is going to have to summarize it in a way I can understand and I will attempt to do so, because at the moment all I read is I am being accused of playing a game where I pick some obvious bullshit reason to lim someone, then seriously prosecute that claim all the way to the day 1 lim and somehow think that outting myself as scum page 1 will lead to a scum victory, and my only real answer to that is "really?", you know?

"I can see where you're coming from, but here's why I did it as town" seems reasonable to me

I would agree - if there is the slightest chance you can see where someone is coming from, and in Luke's case, I can't in the slightest.

For all the text the wall post contains, it appears to essentially boil down to "Val has been shitposting, now he says he's stopped shit posting, but how can be sure? I don't think his read on me can be genuine because although he says he was shitposting I think he wasn't and is only saying he was now because I was scum reading him."

Fine. I can understand when there isn't much to go on in the early game, you have to generate your reads from very little, and I was basically the loudest voice and was using it to say some deliberately spicy things; just as I did in 2068. If you did only read it in a very surface level manner, and later read "My reason for dressing up an RVS vote in the amount of verbiage I did was to make sure there was at least something substantial to discuss" you might misunderstand that to mean I actually believed some of the crap I wrote in the RVS vote and I don't intend to shit post going forward; but I explained that wasn't the case in 93. Perhaps that was glossed over by a tunneled town!Luke? Might explain it, he says a few times he's worried that's the case himself; but then comes 127.

He says he slept on it, re-read everything, and has come to the conclusion that I am just scum. I am just scum because I've openly claimed that we should already plan on Not_Mafia being the Day 1 elim, I've accused him of defending Not_Mafia, and I've seriously criticized him for having not done a full meta dive before voting on page 2. I've come out of the gates and openly claimed I am big scum in a transparent and obvious way, and you are all fucking big dummies for not seeing it.

I think if this argument had come from, say, not_mafia, you would have all laughed and assumed it was a troll; but the fact that it's come from Luke means it gets some credibility? I'm not buying it in the slightest, and I am really, really shocked that anyone is giving it the time of day.

Since there are two players now that I thought based on previous experience were going to read that wall post, then rip this obvscum argument a new one in seconds, but actually haven't, I have to come to the conclusion that maybe it isn't quite as obvious as I first thought; so if you want me to actually respond to the case, someone is going to have to summarize it in a way I can understand and I will attempt to do so, because at the moment all I read is I am being accused of playing a game where I pick some obvious bullshit reason to lim someone, then seriously prosecute that claim all the way to the day 1 lim and somehow think that outting myself as scum page 1 will lead to a scum victory, and my only real answer to that is "really?", you know?