Silent Star 4: Yin and Yang

[Yang]

Flea should be the next elimination. Fae is part of an informed minority. I'm afraid fae wants banish me back to the demon world.

[Yang]

Tanner is boring I don't care about Tanner anymore.

[Chara]

i'll take it!

@Yin

: what do you want to do with Flea?

pedit: lmao

[Chara]

@Yang

: am i a criminal?

i also meant to type Yang with the other question, but then she answered it before anyway.

[Amy Dunne]

Ircher is probably left-handed

I don’t know about Ircher but I am, in fact I’m ambidextrous.


Anyway, I’m mindmelding with Tweetie, Chara and Pooky.

I think Robert probably does have a vig and I’m guessing possibly a novice. Novice vigs can’t shoot on D1. So, I think if Robert is actually willing to be leashed and shoot who we want, her plan is valid.

However, if he’s hellbent on shooting a consensus tr, then his vig shot - regardless of alignment becomes a negative utility, so hopefully Robert sees reason here and stops being so damned omgussy.

I still think Nakata looks the worst and if you re-ISO Infinty, there is a humongous difference between her positioning wrt to Ircher and Nakata.

With Ircher, she wasn’t keen on eliming him but was “okay” with it but with Nakata otoh, she was really passionate about it, Now considering we were not limming yesterday outside of Infinty/Nakata/Ircher, Infinity pushing him so hard when compared with Ircher looks like possible distancing to me.

She obviously didn’t want to 1v1 with Ircher unless Nakata was off the table as well as her conviction he was scum, sounds possibly like a tmi to me. And why I think Nakata looks worse than Robert is because Robert has been omgussy in general but Nakata was only omgussy to Tweetie, me and Ydrasse but very suspiciously NOT Infinity.

I can’t help wondering if Nakata threw in a pointless Tweetie vote, with the plan to push her after Ircher flipped town and possibly derail Infinity wagon. I need to check but iirc, I think that att Nakata last posted, Ircher looked like the successful wagon and not Infinity.

Also while the appeasement argument doesn’t hold water based on him doing the same thing to Skitter in Forest Fire, he made detailed thought provoking nuanced posts in that game as compared to here. I just don’t believe his sr of Tweetie or me or Ydrasse sr were genuine but I’m willing to wait to see if he changes my mind or not when he finally does post.

Wrt to Robert, his jump on Pooky for defending Ydrasse perplexes me more than anything. So, I currently think Nakata probably has more scum equity than Robert. Based off of Infinity ISO, i didn’t necessarily get SvS from her/Robert but I also didn’t get like for example with Pooky, clear anti-partnery vibes.

Tweetie is super obvtown here, she played extremely differently in Royalty. Tweetie is town, regardless of what Robert is.

[Amy Dunne]

Flea is Flea. Fae are town.

I do not like this o.o

This is townie of Ircher because someone disliking you townreading them puts you over a barrel if the townread isn't 100% confident. Sharing an emotional reaction rather than delving into the words to describe the layers of WIFOM of scum!Flea responding this way versus town!Flea disappointing him this way comes from a townish perspective.

Just remember: scum aren't perfect. They try, but they fail as well.

Ircher, do you have any takes on the players so far?

I don't remember you expressing your impressions yet.

Not really. I'm trying something a bit different this game; a bit more of an advisory role so to speak.

There is a pattern I've noticed where players talk about some weakness they have or something, then later shift away from it, but it's in a way you can tell isn't deliberate. This looks like town because Ircher later had more and more impressions to share, but they were just because he happened to have more thoughts. There's a lack of awareness of Ircher's overall presentation.

@Robert: You spent a lot of posts catching up to say very little of substance. Who of the people pushing you do you think is scum?

This is a very towny thing to ask, it genuinely can produce material that could go different ways. Ircher is pretty clearly unaware of Robert's alignment, which would indicate Ircher is town.

Yang

, we already KNOW Ircher is town.

[Chara]

Yang is having some fun. <3

i'm not sure if she has anything game-related to say, but i do hope she continues her posting.

[Chara]

@Amy: who would you want Robert to shoot, hypothetically?

re his Pooky read: do you think it was in response to the Ydrasse thing? it didn't seem related to me. i don't know if i actually disagree with the pov on Pooky there, though i have reasons to think he's still town. i could see where he's coming from on Pooky but i don't think it's impossible scum would take notice of the behavior in that way either.

@Robert - do you mind linking some previous (fully completed) games? preferably scum and town if you have them.

[Chara]

i've only skimmed some games so far, but this one:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=86330

is pretty interesting. Robert was scum, and unlike the towngames i looked at, seemed to have a handle on things. it was only a really quick skim but he wasn't eliminated until day 5, while the towngames had him out of the game pretty early. this could be contradicted by other games i haven't looked at yet.

i don't think one game is evidence of a meta pattern, but it did confirm to me that town Robert can be consistent limbait. i didn't get a sense that the reactive play is a constant, though.

[Chara]

That bottom one change to Is there Mafia in Flea, Chara and Ydrasse and Is there Mafia in Ircher, Ydrasee and Chara. or something like that.

Basically you need to PoE the questions and PEOPLE NEED TO COORDINATE.

But hey leashing questions is no fun and nobody likes taking suggestions

when your conclusions are just "Tanner and Chara scum" because Yin said so, when if that were reality this game wouldn't be mafia so much as twenty questions and solvable day 1 from only one player with the right questions, yes, you're not going to get coordination on this.

i can understand wanting to figure out Yin. i'd also like to figure out what he does in this game. i don't think your theory is correct so i'm not going to coordinate on it, but that doesn't mean i'm not paying attention to the answers.

i don't understand doing that at the expense of all scumhunting and making yourself impossible to read. you can do both things.

[Yang]

Flea is mafia fae recommended me the wrong dessert for me after my evening meal

[Morning Tweet]

If the maj thinks Robert would very obviously shoot n1 so his claim is bullshit I'm fine eliminating him.

His refusal to be leashed so far also doesn't do him any favours. Which is a bit odd considering I'm virtually his only advocate, I would think trying to live would involve appealing to someone rather than whatever this Ydrasse performance is supposed to accomplish.

But he's got a unique playstyle, maybe he sees a way that hardlocking himself into shooting Ydrasse helps him survive or otherwise helps his alignment. I dunno. It's killing his only chances from my perspective.

[Amy Dunne]

@Amy: who would you want Robert to shoot, hypothetically?

re his Pooky read: do you think it was in response to the Ydrasse thing? it didn't seem related to me. i don't know if i actually disagree with the pov on Pooky there, though i have reasons to think he's still town. i could see where he's coming from on Pooky but i don't think it's impossible scum would take notice of the behavior in that way either.

@Robert - do you mind linking some previous (fully completed) games? preferably scum and town if you have them.

Well, rn I’m the most sus on Nakata.

I clicked on that Robert link and similarly to Happy Face, he’s relatively pretty chill as scum. His being so easily rattled could possibly be town indicative?

Infinity ISO is anti-partnery for Pooky.

[Ircher]

I think Robert probably does have a vig and I’m guessing possibly a novice. Novice vigs can’t shoot on D1. So, I think if Robert is actually willing to be leashed and shoot who we want, her plan is valid.

Wouldn't Robert claim novice if this was the case?

Wrt to Robert, his jump on Pooky for defending Ydrasse perplexes me more than anything.

That's not what he said when he elaborated on his read; it appeared independent of his Ydrasse read.

[Ircher]

One of {Nakata, Robert} is scum's designated misfade this game. I don't think both are scum based on game state. Personally, I lean towards Nakata town, Robert scum, but I could be wrong.

[Amy Dunne]

you're off your game infy

are you a baddie or something

No :/

I really don’t see Pooky saying this to a buddy, do you?

@Chara

[Morning Tweet]

i can understand tweetie's conviction to do the mechanically OpTiMaL thing. once upon a time, i tried to do a similar thing in a micro blitz, then luca yelled at me and we yeeted scum. but my issue is that... tweetie is posting so much about giving robert another night, but she's doing effectively nothing to say who she *does* want to see die today and who she wants robert leashed on tonight. which kind of makes it seem... performative i guess? and knowing that i've read that tweetie's scumplay is often making those fancy wallposts and not really rocking the boat, i am kinda *hmm* about her now.

I mean, how often do you see me hardpush a scumread

I think the criminal stuff is a good example of something lengthy and performative i might do. But I'd also be very conscious of how useless the criminal stuff is so it'd be very obvious if someone criticized me for that. Unsure. I'm doing the criminal stuff because it's fun for the record

But as for doing pushes other than Robert -- let's say Robert is town, we can get an innocent on Robert and kill both of Nakata/Flea in one day. That's why it's so appealing for me to let him live a day. And the worst thing that happens is we kill a PoE player today, and Robert is guiltied tomorrow.

I understand the rationale behind his claim being hard for people to swallow. I have seen survivalistic claims, and believe it or not I don't usually react like this as far as I remember because I usually find em more obvious. I won't be terribly surprised if he flips scum but I cannot say it will surprise me if he's town, either.

[Morning Tweet]

@mt sorry, i was very cranky and frustrated when i replied that post as i woke up in the middle of the night, the cute talking thing wasn’t like, mocking you specifically/how you type. it really does feel like though that despite everyone else being okay with robert dying... after the claim no one really is? it’s really just... frustrating. that’s the best word i have to describe it, but i’m genuinely not upset with you or anyone on a personal level, just a game one. i’m sorry again. <3

Ah, my apologies, I shouldn't have taken that personally. I've been made fun of for it in the past and I guess it just makes me sad. Sorry again abt that, and ty for clarifying

I'm just not sure I agree people aren't okay with Robert dying though, even ppl like Pooky who think the claim might be real still want him dead anyway. I myself am fine to let him die if he remains shooting you.

[Amy Dunne]

I think Robert probably does have a vig and I’m guessing possibly a novice. Novice vigs can’t shoot on D1. So, I think if Robert is actually willing to be leashed and shoot who we want, her plan is valid.

Wouldn't Robert claim novice if this was the case?

Wrt to Robert, his jump on Pooky for defending Ydrasse perplexes me more than anything.

That's not what he said when he elaborated on his read; it appeared independent of his Ydrasse read.

I have no idea but he didn’t threaten anyone D1 with the vig shot, so that’s why I think it’s possible. Well maybe but it also happened after Pooky said he might vote him to save Ydra/Tanner, so true it might have had nothing to do with it.

[Morning Tweet]

re setup: there’s nothing to say a silent star game cant have a pr but looking at the last two, it feels unlikely this one does as well. the games are based around mechanical things going on and not the individual’s role (i think the first one having roles made sense with the setup/conceit of the game). so far, we have yin and yang and a bomb. we already have killing power added into the game beyond a nightkill and i don’t think a random vig is thrown in there to... what, keep us off evens when if we get on evens in the first place it’s from the results of our day play?

Fair enough, I can see it being out of place. You make a fair point that the point of the first game was to trick ppl into thinking they had actual werewolf teams in like, a multiball setup.

pedit: He would have claimed novice (today).

[Amy Dunne]

One of {Nakata, Robert} is scum's designated misfade this game. I don't think both are scum based on game state. Personally, I lean towards Nakata town, Robert scum, but I could be wrong.

His posts are different in Forest Fire - very detailed and nuanced. It’s possible you could be right but I lean the opposite but I’m not going to speculate more on this until we actually see his posting today but yeah, I doubt they’re buddies based off how okay Nakata was with limming him yesterday.

[Ircher]

So 样 isn't in favor of Robert dying, but instead, 样 would like Flea. Tbh, I would like to see more from Flea right now. Furthermore, while 样 appears uninformed, I don't think she is here to deceive us. I think it's probably worth investigating Flea for a while before making a decision.
VOTE: Flea

[Amy Dunne]

i can understand tweetie's conviction to do the mechanically OpTiMaL thing. once upon a time, i tried to do a similar thing in a micro blitz, then luca yelled at me and we yeeted scum. but my issue is that... tweetie is posting so much about giving robert another night, but she's doing effectively nothing to say who she *does* want to see die today and who she wants robert leashed on tonight. which kind of makes it seem... performative i guess? and knowing that i've read that tweetie's scumplay is often making those fancy wallposts and not really rocking the boat, i am kinda *hmm* about her now.

I mean, how often do you see me hardpush a scumread

I think the criminal stuff is a good example of something lengthy and performative i might do. But I'd also be very conscious of how useless the criminal stuff is so it'd be very obvious if someone criticized me for that. Unsure. I'm doing the criminal stuff because it's fun for the record

But as for doing pushes other than Robert -- let's say Robert is town, we can get an innocent on Robert and kill both of Nakata/Flea in one day. That's why it's so appealing for me to let him live a day. And the worst thing that happens is we kill a PoE player today, and Robert is guiltied tomorrow.

I understand the rationale behind his claim being hard for people to swallow. I have seen survivalistic claims, and believe it or not I don't usually react like this as far as I remember because I usually find em more obvious. I won't be terribly surprised if he flips scum but I cannot say it will surprise me if he's town, either.

What I found interesting about Flea’s posting yesterday, was that fae vanity voted Tanner for the longest time and only after Infinity wagon gained momentum, did fae suddenly switch to Nakata. There was a real window of opportunity where Nakata could have actually been the lim BEFORE Infinity wagon gained unstoppable momentum but at the point fae switched to Nakata, that wagon was clearly not happening.

[Amy Dunne]

@mt sorry, i was very cranky and frustrated when i replied that post as i woke up in the middle of the night, the cute talking thing wasn’t like, mocking you specifically/how you type. it really does feel like though that despite everyone else being okay with robert dying... after the claim no one really is? it’s really just... frustrating. that’s the best word i have to describe it, but i’m genuinely not upset with you or anyone on a personal level, just a game one. i’m sorry again. <3

Ah, my apologies, I shouldn't have taken that personally. I've been made fun of for it in the past and I guess it just makes me sad. Sorry again abt that, and ty for clarifying

I'm just not sure I agree people aren't okay with Robert dying though, even ppl like Pooky who think the claim might be real still want him dead anyway. I myself am fine to let him die if he remains shooting you.

Pooky is skeptical he won’t shoot town is how I read it, I didn’t read it as Pooky 100% wants him dead.

[Morning Tweet]

Ydrasse: what do you think of Tweetie's 2364 specifically? i keep reading it my first thought was i feel like Tweetie is being really charitable to Robert's play and reading into it in a way that feels informed. one thing i'm fairly sure of is it's not a hypothetical scum Tweetie defending her scum partner, but i wouldn't rule out anything else just based on that.

i am kind of with Robert that i find some aspects of Tweetie's play lacking from her towngame, there's a certain emotional honesty that i associate with Tweetie and this post is pretty much what i was looking for in terms of "this is how town Tweetie digs into her townreads". i don't know if scum Tweet can do this too and this is partially why i'd really like to see her talk about her read on me more in depth.

but basically i've definitely felt this way before, recently in fact, with the really scummy player who you can still kind of see the logic of so you go all in trying to figure it out and come out with a townread.

actually anyone can weigh in i'm curious about thoughts on this in general, this ended up being more about Tweet than about Robert.

It's so annoying to read a player who conventionally hits just about every aspect of what can possibly be scummy (Copious AtE, only appears when talked about, only pushes who is being pushed, softs claim early without elaboration, claims something that begs for one more night but didnt use it previous night, produces little game advancing content, focuses on Yin/Yang but doesnt know if they're helpful??)

and then i go "Yeah, but he's probably just built different"

and then the entire game's like "WTF"

and im like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ what can i say

Which is an oddly specific scenario but i swear it's happened more than once

To elaborate, it's like. There's a super obvious explanation and then there's the other one I can also see. FOR EXAMPLE:

Robert repeatedly says he is going to shoot Ydrasse, thereby reaffirming he is vig over and over. Typically, this comes across as fake and a kind of overcompensation for the fakeclaim. But i can ALSO see a possibility where it ties in to how Robert said that he gets reads through the people pushing him, and him saying he is going to shoot Ydrasse over and over is actually because he's extremely sure she's scum and in a way he's taunting her / baiting reactions. So instead of reaffirming he's vig over and over which would be fakeclaim motivated, he's actually just reaffirming he's going to shoot Ydrasse over and over which has some kind of different motivation. Which is an infinitely more complicated answer, so via occams razor i should probably be throwing it out but i dont for some reason

There's the best insight i can provide. If Robert is in fact town and ppl come at me saying I was informed of that and there's no way anyone could have read his play so charitably, then there's your answer

pedit: i believe Pooky was saying "Yeah, that's nice and all, but do you really think he's going to let us leash him?"