Newbie 2072: All Guns Blazing!! - Ended

[ArcAngel9]

VOTE: Pukewarm

This is vote is not accounted. Please refrain using vote tags with incorrect name titles.

[Not_Mafia]

Why is Zyla getting wagoned?

[ArcAngel9]

Portia have been prodded

[Pavowski]

Why is Zyla getting wagoned?

I can speak for myself; the day is half gone and I'm trying to figure out the Zyla slot. We're still waiting to hear why you want to vote Lukewarm.

[Pavowski]

Just like, self reflecting on this game, and I am coming to the conclusion that my biggest flaw in my town-game is lacking in the ability to explain my scum reads in a digestible / convincing way, and it has been a recurring theme.

Spoiler: Open 812

I was CONVINCED that Unwnd was scum, and I tried repeatedly to make the case for it to Ffery, who was an IC that game, but I just could not explain it in a way that convinced her. I eventually gave up, and we lost that game in Elo to scum Unwnd

I lost this game because I could not convince ffery that Unwnd was scum

Spoiler: Micro 1010

I made this whole case on what scum!Bingle was doing day 1, basically he tanked himself / purposefully got himself eliminated to save his partner. At first, I thought he saved Hopkirk (and was really loud about it). I later realized that he had actually saved 2 people that day: Hoplrk and Vanders.

So I made a big deal that the last scum was inside [hopkirk, vanders], and said repeatedly that we just needed to kill both of them to win... but I could not convince anyone. Vanders killed me the night before elo, and then town lost that game by voting Guilty Lion

Bingle later came back and confirmed that I was right in my analysis of what he was doing

I lost this game because I could not convince people that I had figured out what Bingle was doing

Spoiler: Newbie 2065

Most people got on board for T3, but mainly because he had a TERRIBLE reaction to me accusing him. I tried pretty hard to lead the thread to a Zyla elim, and that was like pulling teeth.

I had just lead the town to a Day 1 scum elim, but no one wanted to follow me on Zyla day 2. (Except my mason partner, all he wanted to do all game was sheep my reads lmao)

But like no one else seemed particularly convinced by my points, and instead like the whole lobby went the other way, and ran Egix up to E-1. Hell, even Egix was like "nah, Zyla is just town here." I could not convince anyone. It was not until Egix himself acted really townie right before his hammer, that people finally decided to go with Zyla.

I think I am generally pretty good at getting near universally town read.
I feel like my reads are generally better then average.
But then, despite being town read, I feel like it is a STRUGGLE to get people to see what I see

And it is honestly pretty frustrating.

That is the motivation behind those posts I made before btw. The ones that people said was me "begging for votes" --245 / 250 -- it is more like just the frustration of apparently being so unable to convince people in several of my games. And in this game, it was even more so. In the other games, I was mostly playing with people who had never played with me before, but then, in this one its like, half this lobby should have had a decent impression of my scum hunting, but even then... nope.

I am still very, very sure that Val is scum. But I am tired of trying to convince people of it. My vote will be there til the end of the day, and even then will only move if it is needed to avoid a no elim for the day.

Spoiler:

I get the feeling that maybe I should just take a page out of Not_Mafia's standard town play, and not actually scum case people. Just point that the scummiest person in the room and say "_____ is scum" and drop a vote. From what I have seen, that is more likely to get people to take heed then what ever it is I have been doing in my games. :/

Kinda off topic Luke, but since you're reflecting, I'll say this for your ability to convince me:

Spoiler:

Your style is a double edged sword. You make good arguments, sometimes excellent arguments, and I usually have a hard time disagreeing with much of what you post or how you read people. And I do *tend* to read you as town. But -- and maybe this is because I was on the receiving end of one of your pushes last game when I knew it was wrong -- I know you can use those arguments and reads as scum framing a townie just as well as you can as a townie reading scum. So while I find your reads insightful and maybe even correct, I take them with a hefty dose of salt; probably more salt than I take other players'.

tl;dr -- I think you're an excellent player, and that's why I will never fully trust you unless you're confirmed.

[Pavowski]

Things I know I never like: self voting.

Things I know: I’m aggrieved hammered again (this week is the one I took off work)

Things I want to know: why Zola and Astro haven’t made any impression on me so far.

Things I want to do : bullshit at mafia for a bit.

Whos with me?

Portia, since you're likely to see this, have you refined your reads on Zulu (kidding Zyla ) and Alstro?

Also earlier, you described Marci as "fairly newb town" -- is that still holding up?

[Val89]

There is a distinct difference between someone making a suggestion that a scum player is scum with their actual partner
and someone making a suggestion that a scum playing is scum with someone who is not their partner.

I post 393 to be further evidence that he has not really stop and engaged with the idea that scum!me would not be upset if you paired me with a townie

Let imagine we are back at post 1:

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Not_Mafia!

Hey Guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Zyla!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Val89!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with ArcAngel!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with VFP, who isn't even playing this game!

Hey guys! I think the mod might have made a mistake with the setup this game, and it's just Lukewarm who is scum on his own!

Go on, tell me again which of those I could have gone for that scum!You would have been overjoyed with, and could have in no way led to anyone looking at the Lukewarm slot?

There is no difference in the slightest

, whether you've been paired with a townie, with your actual scum buddy or even a fictional character.

Any chance of an answer to this, Lukewarm?

[Zyla]

Spoiler:

Ah here we go -- I have my eye on Zyla a bit already because [ongoing games] but it's more of a lean than a read at this point

I'm going to say that I'm a little bit confused since we aren't in any games together. Since we can talk about 2068, which we were both in, does that do anything to help or harm me in your eyes?

Not meaningful content.

I was asking alstro a question about their read on me, I fail to see why that doesn't count as meaningful

Spoiler:

For the record on my part: I do not think Not_Mafia [...] should be the lim today

Why not? Sure we shouldn't eliminate him right now, as it's early in the day, but most people seem to agree that they're hard to read and would be an easy mis-elim, which I at least would rather do the most likely miselim on day 1 and let someone else contribute to the thread

Not

completely

empty but an easy thing to comment on and not town-indicative, and rang some "fake activity" bells in my head in that it's an easy low-risk thing to comment on and appear to be contributing.

I feel like your missing my context here. I wanted to see how Val would react, I commented more in 142 and 151, it was a purposeful weak case to see what Val said. And personally, I think the answers I got out of it can potentially be helpful in the future

Spoiler:

Interesting choice of quote from Alstro's 73. Seems like this one would be the one actually relevant to the topic at hand:

As a result, Luke's response threw me off a bit because it seemed to be taking it completely at face value. So I wasn't sure if Luke was, like, playing along, or...?

Now hold on a second. If I'm reading this correctly, Luke was saying that Alstro was taking

you

seriously. That doesn't mean they were taking you RVS post seriously. (And yes, it's dressed up and entertaining, but it's still RVS) You both really seem to like taking what the other person is saying out of context

"You're both being silly" is an obvious point and an easy way to position oneself as the voice of reason.

That part wasn't even really about reading them, just general frustration

Mainly because I don't want to put too much stock in what most people seem to agree when I've not played with him, and I don't think I've yet read a newbie game with him in it.

Early days, but I haven't yet seen anything to suggest he will be trouble, or any harder to read than anyone else in the game.

In the one I read, it seemed to be consistent with his normal (from the meta-reading I did out of curiosity) except for the fact that he doesn't do quickhammers in newbies

As for the second part, he's claimed himself that he's not voting seriously, which at least to me seems like an anti-town red flag (whether or not he's scum), what's your thought on that?

Also, my main thing was that you said flat out he wasn't the vote today; wouldn't you be willing to eliminate him if more information pointed to him being scummy?

The first two parts seem like easy observations and the question in the third is just weird and fake-seeming to me ("Would you be willing to eliminate someone if evidence says they are scum?" Is that really a question you need to ask?)

1st one is an easy observation, yes, but Val claimed to not have the information so I gave it to him
2nd is a question. I wanted Val to give an opinion.
3rd has an obvious answer of yes in most cases, yes, but

how

he answers yes may have potential if the reason he seemed sure about not wanting to vote N_M was because they were teamed together

[Zyla]

Also, I'm noting that Not_Mafia's 426 was over 2 hours after being told that his vote didn't count. Any plans to vote Lukewarm or someone else? The purpose for your vote on Umlaut is gone, as they're giving good activity now that V/LA is over

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Your style is a double edged sword. You make good arguments, sometimes excellent arguments, and I usually have a hard time disagreeing with much of what you post or how you read people. And I do *tend* to read you as town. But -- and maybe this is because I was on the receiving end of one of your pushes last game when I knew it was wrong -- I know you can use those arguments and reads as scum framing a townie just as well as you can as a townie reading scum. So while I find your reads insightful and maybe even correct, I take them with a hefty dose of salt; probably more salt than I take other players'.

tl;dr -- I think you're an excellent player, and that's why I will never fully trust you unless you're confirmed.

Spoiler: Side Conversation with Pav

Okay, but in that case, shouldn't that, at the very least, make you think that me v Val has a decent chance of being TvS and not TvT? Either, I am town and making a real argument against my strongest scum read, OR I am scum making a push like I did on you?

Because, from what I have seen, you still appear to think it is TvT

I think in short both players are making a case they honestly believe to be true about the other.

[Lukewarm]

Why is Zyla getting wagoned?

From my PoV -- because I have scared people off from trying to sort either me or Val

I am not sure why that ended up with Zyla, instead of one of the other slots tho. The only thing I have seen is "she has been coasting" or "she hasn't done anything townie"

But, like, 259-297 in her iso is both non-coasty and somewhat townie imo

[Not_Mafia]

I have scared people off from trying to sort either me or Val

Sounds like a good outcome for scum-you

[Lukewarm]

I have scared people off from trying to sort either me or Val

Sounds like a good outcome for scum-you

I guess so, although I think that it is clear that I am still encouraging people to come back to sorting that. See 434

[Lukewarm]

Actually, thinking on it more, I don't know that I agree.

If anything, I think I am pretty obviously town in that 1v1 (whether you agree with my case on Val or not) -- so I think it is probably better for me, as either alignment, for people to sift through it.

[Val89]

so I think it is probably better for me, as either alignment, for people to sift through it.

If that's the case, how about we circle back to this:

Let imagine we are back at post 1:

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Not_Mafia!

Hey Guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Zyla!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Val89!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with ArcAngel!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with VFP, who isn't even playing this game!

Hey guys! I think the mod might have made a mistake with the setup this game, and it's just Lukewarm who is scum on his own!

Go on, tell me again which of those I could have gone for that scum!You would have been overjoyed with, and could have in no way led to anyone looking at the Lukewarm slot?

There is no difference in the slightest

, whether you've been paired with a townie, with your actual scum buddy or even a fictional character.

3rd time of asking, Luke. The question is, in which of those cases is scum!Luke overjoyed to have been scum read.

I would have thought you would have been very keen to answer this as it appears to me to be pretty central to your argument that I must be scum because my read on you can't be genuine, because town!me would have known you would have actually been happy to pick up a scumread.

[Pavowski]

Spoiler:

Your style is a double edged sword. You make good arguments, sometimes excellent arguments, and I usually have a hard time disagreeing with much of what you post or how you read people. And I do *tend* to read you as town. But -- and maybe this is because I was on the receiving end of one of your pushes last game when I knew it was wrong -- I know you can use those arguments and reads as scum framing a townie just as well as you can as a townie reading scum. So while I find your reads insightful and maybe even correct, I take them with a hefty dose of salt; probably more salt than I take other players'.

tl;dr -- I think you're an excellent player, and that's why I will never fully trust you unless you're confirmed.

Spoiler: Side Conversation with Pav

Okay, but in that case, shouldn't that, at the very least, make you think that me v Val has a decent chance of being TvS and not TvT? Either, I am town and making a real argument against my strongest scum read, OR I am scum making a push like I did on you?

Because, from what I have seen, you still appear to think it is TvT

I think in short both players are making a case they honestly believe to be true about the other.

Spoiler:

Of course there's a chance, and I'll grant it's greater than a slight chance, but at the moment I am more convinced it's TvT.

[Lukewarm]

@Val, I am purposefully avoiding entering into a 1v1 with you again. Plus, I have already basically answered that question.

Once you said "I think that the scum team is _____ + Luke, and that we should kill ______ first"

As long as it is not exactly my partner, that is a good thing, and I have no reason to scum read you to discredit you there.

I would have either:
~ignored you, and hoped you kept pushing it to a miselim on Not_Mafia for on your own
~further defended Not_Mafia to re-instill it the idea that we could be partners
~possibly town read you in an attempt to pocket you.

That is why your case in 99 did not make sense. You set up a scenario that could possibly have been the basis of an associative read between me and Not_Mafia, but then preambled it by saying that you were not scum reading Not_Mafia, but thought that I was independently scummy.

[marcistar]

Also, if anyone who is voting Zyla (Marci, Umlaut, Pav) is at the point of "I really think Zyla is scum" as opposed to "I want to pressure Zyla" I would be curious to hear a case.

i don't really have strong opinions on her, i havent really been too convinced of her being townie yet though.
if someone wants to towncase zyla, go ahead. i might be missing something.

I still don't like that Portia hasn't done much despite being around -- when Luke pointed it out, he got it wrong in saying "zero" reads instead of "one", and since then people have been like "yeah Portia did give a read and Luke was wrong so we need to chill". But since then, Portia has been around but besides 168 hasn't added a ton more. As I said earlier, I don't like the "sidelines" comment because, as Portia says in 263, keeping the thread active is good.

hmm i quite like this idea, i havent thought much about porita and just wrote him off as town originally.

Why is Zyla getting wagoned?

sure shes given readlists, but i dont really see her pushing too much to further her reads, which is why it feels a bit weird right now. when i try to think of her alignment its just a huge

alstroemerial

, do you have a readslist for us?

[Lukewarm]

@Marci

My thoughts on Zyla

@Pav, I just did an iso on Zyla, and I would say that I am on a weak town lean there

I liked the way she did her iso read list -- it gave lots of things for people to latch on to / respond to. I think she put in a lot of work to try and pull the thread back into productive conversations -- I think it is probably my/val's fault that she did not spark several conversations all at once there.

Particularly liked the reach out to Not_Mafia

Although, I kinda disliked the Matci post. I feel like there should have been //something// there to respond to.

But over all, I liked it

I do not have her as high as my proper town reads, but that is enough to have her higher then Val, Portia, Not_Mafia

[Val89]

@Val, I am purposefully avoiding entering into a 1v1 with you again.

I know you are. I noticed that as soon as you detect the first pings that people other me might be starting to switch on that you are doing scummy things - Pavs 400; the vote from Not_Mafia, a clear example that shows why you are talking crap, you no longer want attention on our interactions.

If anything, I think I am pretty obviously town in that 1v1 (whether you agree with my case on Val or not) -- so I think it is probably better for me, as either alignment, for people to sift through it.

Come again? You think its better for you (even as scum???) for people to sift though it; but you are puposefully avoiding drawing attention to us two again?

That is why your case in 99 did not make sense. You set up a scenario that could possibly have been the basis of an associative read between me and Not_Mafia, but then preambled it by saying that you were not scum reading Not_Mafia, but thought that I was independently scummy.

We've clearly established it was NOT an assocative read. I think it's pretty evident that there is no reason for scum to be "overjoyed" to be scumread, either independantly or with someone else of either alignment early on D1 when people are throwing any old crap around.

Can someone OTHER than lukewarm read my 99 and tell me if it doesn't make sense, please?

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Your style is a double edged sword. You make good arguments, sometimes excellent arguments, and I usually have a hard time disagreeing with much of what you post or how you read people. And I do *tend* to read you as town. But -- and maybe this is because I was on the receiving end of one of your pushes last game when I knew it was wrong -- I know you can use those arguments and reads as scum framing a townie just as well as you can as a townie reading scum. So while I find your reads insightful and maybe even correct, I take them with a hefty dose of salt; probably more salt than I take other players'.

tl;dr -- I think you're an excellent player, and that's why I will never fully trust you unless you're confirmed.

Spoiler: Side Conversation with Pav

Okay, but in that case, shouldn't that, at the very least, make you think that me v Val has a decent chance of being TvS and not TvT? Either, I am town and making a real argument against my strongest scum read, OR I am scum making a push like I did on you?

Because, from what I have seen, you still appear to think it is TvT

I think in short both players are making a case they honestly believe to be true about the other.

Spoiler:

Of course there's a chance, and I'll grant it's greater than a slight chance, but at the moment I am more convinced it's TvT.

Spoiler:

From what I can see, this is the reason you think it is TvT:

I don't think scum is going to lean *that* hard into a miselim on d1.

And, I would say that while this might apply to me, I do not know that it actually applies to Val.

I would describe his play, less as "leaning into a miselim" and more "needing to present me as scum, to stop my push on him"

Compare the VERY distinctive tone shift starting immediately after I made 214

Spoiler: Val's tone before post 214

My 99 was simply pointing out something that pinged me as scummy, but I entered into this conversation believing with further exploration it may well turn out to be NAI or even perhaps town motivated.

While Lukewarm appears to have taken my post 99 as saying "I read Lukewarm as scum", I'm not all the way there yet.

Whilst I think Lukewarm has started to ping me scummy, I am not throwing my vote down on them and calling them a scumread until I have more reason to do so, in an attempt to avoid another Val v JamesTheNames situation.

I will point out that, while I am definitely getting some scumpings from Lukes slot since then, I don't think it's anything to vote over just yet

VOTE: Lukewarm
{snip}
It's not a strong lean, but it's good enough for a early-D1 first serious vote.

Spoiler: Val's tone after 214

No offense, but I know your case is bullshit, and I think it's fairly obviously bullshit and will be seen as such by the other players

Hope your scumbuddy isn't giving you too much crap in the PT right now

you are doing a grand old job of basically bussing yourself here.

@Pav

If you do have other reasons to think he is town, can you town case him for me?

[Lukewarm]

Val, there is a difference between "purposefully avoiding entering into a

new

1v1 with you" and hoping people will look back at our earlier 1v1.

I think that continuing to have a back and forth with you is purposeless at this point, but I do wish people would look back at what has already happened and actually try to sort through it (instead of just accepting that it must be tvt, and ignoring it all).

Also, if other people have questions for me in regards to it, I am happy to answer them. I just think that responding to everything you say will do nothing but clog the thread up again.

[Val89]

Convenient, that.

Your case on me is that you don't think my take in 99 can be genuine; and you've gone to great pains, to the degree you have move that 1.5x times the number of posts of anyone else in this thread, to keep restating that case - but the second we might actually be drilling down to the essence of that case, you no longer want anything to do with it?

This isn't a

new

1v1; this is the

same

point, but now people are engaging with it. If you think people arn't engaging with the case and sorting you properly, why wouldn't you want to help them out by cutting out the waffle and drilling it down to the essence?

Again:

he has not really stop and engaged with the idea that scum!me would not be upset if you paired me with a townie ----
Like, this is the entire thing I have been trying to talk about respect to his read.

The main reason I was scum reading you is that you're read on me does not seem genuine

He stated that he was leaning my action to be more likely to be scum, and the stated reasons were nonsensical.
I pointed that out, and he never revisited that read on me. ---- He was not genuinely trying to read me.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this issue around if my point in 99 that scum!you had a reason to be worried about being called scum read, regardless of whom you were paired with, is central to your case that both my case on you is rubbish, and also the reason why I must be scum; and it's so solid you purport to want to go 1v1 with me on D1.

Yet, we just start getting to the heart of it, and you want to disengage. OK. I'm sorry, I can't find a town!Luke justification for that, however hard I try. Even if you were worried people were switching off from it and it was clogging up the thread - this is the point people ARE starting to look at it - Not_mafia came in with a vote on side, and you and Pav are now having a 'side' conversation about it after he said you did something that could be taken as scummy.

[Lukewarm]

Resisting. Urge. To. 1v1.

I am avoiding answering Val's questions at this point because:

1) He is scum, so I do not think that he is asking questions in good faith
2) He is asking questions that I have already answered multiple times in thread.

------------

If anyone else sees something that Val posts that leaves you wanting an answer from me, feel free to ask me that question yourself.

I am not trying to avoid a discussion of why Val is scummy, but I don't think it makes sense for me to continue having that conversation with Val. I am more then happy to answer questions from other slots.

------------

(Also, looking at the questions Val is asking, I think that he misunderstands the strongest reasons I am scum reading him at this point anyways)

[Val89]

I am not trying to avoid a discussion of why Val is scummy, but I don't think it makes sense for me to continue having that conversation with Val.

Notice how he tries to frame this as a discussion as to how I am scummy, when clearly we are in "This is why Lukewarm is scum" territory.

If this washes with anyone, I will however bear in mind for my own future scum games - if I start getting too much heat - 'Nah, the person making this case is scummy, so I don't need to engage'. As long as the rest of the town can't be arsed to any sorting, job done.