Newbie 2072: All Guns Blazing!! - Ended

[Lukewarm]

imo, short posts like that are not the kinds of posts that result in people skipping over the conversation. It is the repeated dense / long posts.

The big thing about avoiding thread clog is actually figuring out how to condense the longer posts, which is something that I am admittedly not good at

[Lukewarm]

Like, if I did actively want to clog the thread, the ones you pointed out are definitely not the ones I would be making to try and accomplish that

[Not_Mafia]

Interesting

This post keeps coming back to me.

I feel like this is a strange response to our conversation, but I am struggling to sort from it.

Like, I feel like it is a strange response coming from both alignments, so I am not sure what to do with it.

Interesting

[Pavowski]

this is another of those weird things that doesn't make sense to me if you're town.

I am curious what quotes you think I shortened to the point of being misleading?

----------------

This is the thing I was trying to draw attention to was:

Prior to post 214, Val appears to have had a weak scum lean lean on me. He said himself in post 183 "It's not a strong lean"

Then he read post 214

After that, his read on me changed so much so that he appears to be so sure that I am scum that he has not indicated even the slightest worry that I might be a townie tunneled on him.

And I was hoping that you would ask yourself, does it make sense for his read and tone to have changed so suddenly from immediately before 214 to immediately after 214.

---------------

I feel like the quotes I chose highlighted that, and were not misleading about his stance on me either before or after.

I mean, I understand why Val wants to present it like I was misquoting him in some way, but I am not sure what drew you to agree with him there.

Shortening quotes misleadingly is a dumb play to make from either alignment tbh. The quote box links directly back to the original post, so if you want to look for further context it is right there. Making a misleading quote seems like a dumb trap to set up for yourself, since it is so easy to follow back on.

That thing from me is not about shortening quotes, it's the whole concept about the spoilered conversation ... I didn't say anything about being misleading in that post, the only time I did was when I responded to Val's point about you snipping the middle bit out of a sentence in, I think it was 99

[Pavowski]

UNVOTE: Zyla

I don't see any indication that NM is scum at this point, and an elim on him would tell us next to nothing, so as much as I am not a fan of the slot, an elim here doesn't make a lot of sense right now

Val's comments about Alstro are having some kind of effect on me. Then again I'm kinda liking Alstro's 468. I still TR Alstro in the top half of the players here. In fact looking back through his ISO, I need to hear from Portia's slot.

VOTE: Portia

[Pavowski]

For that matter I'd like some updated takes from Umlaut as well. I'm looking at your proposed elim pool of {Val, Zyla, NM, Portia} from 309, is this still where you are?

[Umlaut]

Hey you happened to ask me a question just as I'm checking in, good job.

That's more or less still where I am; my read on Val vacillates wildly between obviously-this-is-town and obviously-this-is-scum depending on which way the wind is blowing, though. They have said a few specific things that make me want to put off that wagon at the very least, so take them out of the pool I guess.

I haven't really thought in-depth about this game for a couple days, need to get back in the saddle at some point.

[Umlaut]

Yeah, I'll give you that one. I might need to hone my skills in that department. At the moment, I tend to look for people doing things that ping me as scummy, then I scumread them for that.

Speaking of which:

After playing like 4-ish games with Not_Mafia, I am against a Day 1 Not_Mafia elim, and generally suspicious of people who lean into eliming him Day 1 -- he is an easy miselim target / angle for the scum team to push. Plus, I have also found him to be a pretty good scum hunter, and would like to see any pushes that he leans into before I personally try to sort him.

I don't have any experience with Not_Mafia, but I think 128 Luke talks a lot of sense. Something must have changed since then, I guess. That's fine, people change their opinions as the game goes on, not going to criticise you for that. Let me go see what scummy things Not_mafia might have done to make you think he might be worth limming since then.

*Opens Not_mafia ISO, reads posts from 128 down*

Oh, he started giving indications (like the 'non-vote' and talking of a 'scum you') that he might be starting to scumread you. So, what you meant in 128 is that you would like to keep him around to see what lean/pushes he makes, just as long as they aren't directed at you?
I'm also wondering to myself why you are pontificating to the room about if there is maybe an appetite for limming not_mafia, rather than actually making a case or dropping a vote - would that be just a little

too

obvious, perhaps?

By the way, I kinda like this sort of jokey, sarcastic style we seem to developing towards each other, do you think it might help town actually start paying attention to us a little more, rather than just scroll past when they see our avatars?

Val, have you ever actually been scum in a game? Because this read seems to betray a failure to understand how scum think. I don't think I have ever chosen whom to push for elimination based on who I thought was a threat to scum!me, and I don't really expect scum!Luke to operate that way either.

[Lukewarm]

UNVOTE: Zyla

I don't see any indication that NM is scum at this point, and an elim on him would tell us next to nothing, so as much as I am not a fan of the slot, an elim here doesn't make a lot of sense right now

It would tell you next to nothing? I know that he has not said much, but the entire lobby has commented on him.

People that have posted about Not_Mafia in ways that a flip on him would shed light on their alignment:

Spoiler: Pav

This most recent refusal to even consider a Not_Mafia elim, most likely never comes from Scum!Pav, unless Not_Mafia is his partner.

If Not_Mafia flips town, Pav gets +++town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Pav - town /spoiler]
Val

Spoiler: Val

Val has commented so many times about being against a Not_Mafia flip, and came to his defense a few times.

He has also indicated that Not_Mafia should not be a cop target. Which could be "don't cop my partner" but it could also be "don't cop my potential miselim later"

If Not_Mafia flips town, Val gets +town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Val gets +++Scum

Spoiler: Lukewarm

I am the person trying to rally up votes on Not_Mafia

If Not_Mafia flips town, Luke gets +Scum
If Not_Mafa flips scum, Luke gets +++Town

Spoiler: Umlaut

NM has done fuck-all but I kind of expect that from him. Would not object to an elim there but in my experience we either do it or don't, trying to use votes to pressure him is useless.

I don't think Umlaut ever says this against a partner

If not_mafia flips scum, umlaut gets +++Town

~

Alstro

and

Zyla

have both already said things that would be AI on a Not Mafia flip, but would like for them to weigh in before I reveal how it would make them look

~I find both Marci's and Portia's comments on him to be NAI if he were to flip either way.

[Lukewarm]

UNVOTE: Zyla

I don't see any indication that NM is scum at this point, and an elim on him would tell us next to nothing, so as much as I am not a fan of the slot, an elim here doesn't make a lot of sense right now

It would tell you next to nothing? I know that he has not said much, but the entire lobby has commented on him.

People that have posted about Not_Mafia in ways that a flip on him would shed light on their alignment:

Spoiler: Pav

This most recent refusal to even consider a Not_Mafia elim, most likely never comes from Scum!Pav, unless Not_Mafia is his partner.

If Not_Mafia flips town, Pav gets +++town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Pav - town

Spoiler: Val

Val has commented so many times about being against a Not_Mafia flip, and came to his defense a few times.

He has also indicated that Not_Mafia should not be a cop target. Which could be "don't cop my partner" but it could also be "don't cop my potential miselim later"

If Not_Mafia flips town, Val gets +town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Val gets +++Scum

Spoiler: Lukewarm

I am the person trying to rally up votes on Not_Mafia

If Not_Mafia flips town, Luke gets +Scum
If Not_Mafa flips scum, Luke gets +++Town

Spoiler: Umlaut

NM has done fuck-all but I kind of expect that from him. Would not object to an elim there but in my experience we either do it or don't, trying to use votes to pressure him is useless.

I don't think Umlaut ever says this against a partner

If not_mafia flips scum, umlaut gets +++Town

~

Alstro

and

Zyla

have both already said things that would be AI on a Not Mafia flip, but would like for them to weigh in before I reveal how it would make them look

~I find both Marci's and Portia's comments on him to be NAI if he were to flip either way.

ebwop : fixed a broken spoiler tag

[Lukewarm]

Val, have you ever actually been scum in a game? Because this read seems to betray a failure to understand how scum think. I don't think I have ever chosen whom to push for elimination based on who I thought was a threat to scum!me, and I don't really expect scum!Luke to operate that way either.

Yeah, thats what the night kill is for!

[Lukewarm]

@Umlaut, you are currently voting for Zyla, and I am kindly requesting for you to move that vote <3

I would prefer that vote to go to Val or Not_Mafia.

But anyone outside of [Pav, Umlaut, Zyla] would do

Thanks

[marcistar]

Val has made me think he's more likely to be town but without changing my mind on Luke -- so I really don't want to do either, but if we really had to in order to prevent a no elim, I would say let's go with Luke.

what has val done that made you townread him..?

@Everyone

The more I think about it, and the more I look back over her iso, the more sure I am that Zyla is town. Don't like that she is the current leading wagon


If absolutely everyone is against flipping inside of me+Val, how does everyone feel about flipping Not_Mafia today?

But if any of :Zyla, Pav, or Umlaunt were the elims today, I think I would scream.

Would rather be the elim myself.

can you point out the things that make you think shes town? people keep using meta as a reason to townread her, which i dont really understand. from what i've seen her reads don't seem too in depth.

[Val89]

He has also indicated that Not_Mafia should not be a cop target. Which could be "don't cop my partner" but it could also be "don't cop my potential miselim later"

Incorrect. Don't get your info from obviously scummy slots; folks, because this is the sort stuff they will try and slip past you.

The source you are looking for are posts 361 and 364.

To wit:

I'm not arguing that its bad advice in a hypothetical sense, I am disagreeing that Umlaut posted it with the intent of throwing out some hypothetical advice, I think he was fishing, and fishing for something very specific, whilst looking like he was giving advice.

[Val89]

I am the person trying to rally up votes on Not_Mafia

If Not_Mafia flips town, Luke gets +Scum
If Not_Mafa flips scum, Luke gets +++Town

If Not_Mafia flips town, Val gets +town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Val gets +++Scum

You see how this works in Lukes eyes; if Not_mafia is town, then that makes him just a little bit more scum. If he is town, then that makes me just a tiny little bit more town. Why does a Not_mafia town flip not make Lukewarm +++scum, given he *is* the one trying to rally up votes against him; from what appears to me to be very little?

[marcistar]

You see how this works in Lukes eyes; if Not_mafia is town, then that makes him just a little bit more scum. If he is town, then that makes me just a tiny little bit more town. Why does a Not_mafia town flip not make Lukewarm +++scum, given he *is* the one trying to rally up votes against him; from what appears to me to be very little?

umm val
"You see how this works in Lukes eyes;"
^ you already know that what luke was saying was in his pov, so how would it make sense for luke to sus himself, especially to the extent of "+++scum"?

[Lukewarm]

I am the person trying to rally up votes on Not_Mafia

If Not_Mafia flips town, Luke gets +Scum
If Not_Mafa flips scum, Luke gets +++Town

If Not_Mafia flips town, Val gets +town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Val gets +++Scum

You see how this works in Lukes eyes; if Not_mafia is town, then that makes him just a little bit more scum. If he is town, then that makes me just a tiny little bit more town. Why does a Not_mafia town flip not make Lukewarm +++scum, given he *is* the one trying to rally up votes against him; from what appears to me to be very little?

I cannot tell if Val is actually just the worst at knowing what makes someone more or less likely to be scum, or if he really just wants to disagree with everything that I say

[Lukewarm]

I will say that I guess I misremembered which points Val agreed with in post 369.

I thought he had agreed with both. My bad.

Update that earlier post from a

+++Scum

to a ++Scum

[Val89]

Now, now; I don't disagree with

everything

you say.

I agreed with 128 you, for example:

After playing like 4-ish games with Not_Mafia, I am against a Day 1 Not_Mafia elim, and generally suspicious of people who lean into eliming him Day 1 -- he is an easy miselim target / angle for the scum team to push. Plus, I have also found him to be a pretty good scum hunter, and would like to see any pushes that he leans into before I personally try to sort him.

I also agreed with:

Because misleading people as town is generally a bad play??

And that the Zyla wagon was bad.

I just disagree with Not_mafia flipping town meaning you only deserve a little bump in your scumpoints, is all. I think if Not_mafia is town, that gives you a fair bit more chance you are scum. You and others are welcome to disagree, but don't expect me to sit here and not say it.

[Lukewarm]

This is fine. If Val wants to say it would +++scum points for me if Not_Mafia flips town so be it.

@Val, do you want to just vote Not_Mafia to give me +++scum points if I am wrong?

No one seems to have an appetite for voting me otherwise, so what do you say?

[Val89]

Well, given that you said he was a pretty good scum hunter; and he has given at least some indications he is following the game, I would have thought it might well be an idea to give him the chance to do a bit of that scum hunting before we decide to give him the chop, no?

If the game is still crawling along and we are in danger of a no lim, and people still aren't making a stand; or if he comes in and demonstrates why he seems to have a reputation to make some players recommend a policy lim; then we can talk again, but you said it yourself - he is an easy miselim target / angle for the scum team to push, and I don't think we are at the point where a nolim is a danger today.

I must I say, I know I am a newbie and everything, but I am rather suprised you seem to treating my stance on this as something unusual or out there. I'm suprised there aren't more people saying the same.

[alstroemerial]

Alstro, Is there anything in particular you can say about Marci that puts her over, say Pav? I've had a look through your ISO, but the only reference I can find is a vague note that you are "liking [her] more and more" in 373.

I also noticed while looking that you say in 293 that a "A Val flip would give information for sorting Portia, Umlaut, and Marci in my opinion.", when you were asked about it you said "I think Val being town makes you [marci] and Portia a little more likely to be town" (311) but I don't think you've ever explained why you thought that.

The reason I ask is (I'll have to go back and check) but I don't recall ever making a strong read in either direction in our previous game without giving reasons why. That's a nice bold colour you've chosen for Marci, without giving much if anything in the way of justification.

Are those two orange players (Umlaut and Zyla) null reads, or is that meant to indicate they are slight scum reads?

In terms of the general reason for Marci, I'd direct you to 231. That had increased further when I posted 373, which you referred to, and hasn't really changed since. Marci hasn't given me any reason to not TR her, unlike Pav. While Pav has improved in my eyes since I was voting for him, I see a small universe in which Luke v Val is TvT and Pav is scum using these interactions with Luke to keep distractions going. That is unlikely and I do have Pav in green, but just something poking at me.

For my second game, I'm experimenting with holding back a bit more to have three benefits: first, to make posts easier to read with fewer walls; second, to avoid the reputation of posting too extensively so I can play sustainably (lol); and third, so that when there are things that it would be beneficial to hold back on (purposefully baiting reactions, crumbs, etc) it doesn't look as glaringly conspicuous.

Marci and Portia seemed supportive of Val which is what drove 311.

Umlaut and Zyla are null for me. I wouldn't be opposed to limming in there but would at this moment would rather Portia or Not_Mafia. As for Portia though, if Portia doesn't pick up the prod that would get recalibrated with a replacement...

[alstroemerial]

I think that Val has not learned the art of scum hunting by Process of Elimination.

I got lots of town reads this game, BABEYYYYYY

This is also why Not_Mafia is in my lim pool

[Umlaut]

VOTE: Portia
since Luke asked nicely. I still think that one post was kind of towny but absent a stronger scumread I'm good with this.

[alstroemerial]

Hey hey I know I was the first Portia vote on this wagon and I'm glad people are following me but can no one else vote Portia until either he picks up the prod or gets replaced? I don't want this to move too fast before he can say anything.

My reaction to page 20 is roughly, whew, if {Not_Mafia, Val} is the team then it would be so ironic and beautiful in light of Val's first post and how everything went down from that. With that said I agree with Luke's assessment in 508. Speaking of which:

~Alstro and Zyla have both already said things that would be AI on a Not Mafia flip, but would like for them to weigh in before I reveal how it would make them look

Like I've said in the past few posts, Not_Mafia is at the bottom of my pool behind only Portia, but that's mostly only via PoE. Looking at my ISO, my prediction for what Luke is thinking is that Not_Mafia town makes me +town but Not_Mafia scum makes me ++scum. The argument for a {Alstro, N_M} team in light of a N_M scum flip would be me starting from roughly "haha let's not actually do Not_Mafia this is a joke right this is a joke" and then started showing more openness to Not_Mafia once it looked like that Portia isn't going anywhere and I've basically locked myself out of Luke or Val miselims and trying to get a little bussing in instead. Whereas if Not_Mafia flips town then my hesitancy and weirdness around the slot comes across more as (accurate) newbie confusion.

Did I get it right?