Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Gypyx]

also kinda off topic but i wondered, would allowing the scumteam to assign the roles among them has room them has room for design in normals?

bumping this cuz it kinda got ignored but i think the idea has potential

[Dunnstral]

In my opinion that should stay in theme games, working with x player having y role should stay part of the normal experience

[T3]

Would a goon enabler be normal?

[Gypyx]

In my opinion that should stay in theme games, working with x player having y role should stay part of the normal experience

Normal games are about offering players a consistent experience though, and maybe it's a feature of normals, but i doubt many peoples are in for the "oh boy, can't wait to try to protect my teamate who happens to be important as scum !"

and Goon is the vanilla version of mafia, so it can't be enabled, just like you can't enable a serial killer

[Not_Mafia]

That would be a huge buff to scum and isn’t really a mechanic I see all that much.

A normal game is to give players a pretty standard Mafia experience without having to worry about bastard elements, off the wall design features etc… site meta should dictate what appears in normals and not vice versa

[Cook]

i'm willing to run a few open games where this is the case

[TemporalLich]

If we get the greylist back we could probably use it for Combined Goons (A Combined Goon Alien is a very strong ability!)

[Cook]

I also propose

Gunbearer

and

Gunless

, which have the following abilities/modifiers:

Welcome! You are a

Mafia Traitor Gunbearer

.

You do not have access to the Mafia PT. Your partners are XXX and YYY. They do not know who you are but know you exist. If you are the only remaining Mafia member you will surrender and the Mafia will lose.

You have access to the Mafia's factional kill. At night you may send me the name of a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

so then you can modify this ability.

Welcome! You are a

Mafia Multitasking Roleblocker 2-Shot Compulsive Gunbearer

.

You have access to the Mafia's factional kill.

Twice in the game at night you must send me the name of a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

In addition at night you may send me the name of a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player's action will be blocked.
You may perform both of these actions in the same night.

...or give it to a Townie/SK.

Welcome! You are a

Serial Killer 1-Shot Novice Gunbearer

.

At night you may send me the name of a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

In addition, once in the game (but not on Night 1), you have access to the Mafia's factional kill. At night you may send me the name of a player and indicate you are bearing the gun. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

and Gunless is a modifier that does the reverse.

Welcome! You are a

Gunless Mafia Rolestopper

.

You do not have access to the Mafia's factional kill. The game does not end if you are the last member of the Mafia remaining.

[Ythan]

You have notably interesting and clever thoughts on mafia mechanics (notably even in a forum about mafia) and I've thought so for a while now.

[Cook]

You have notably interesting and clever thoughts on mafia mechanics (notably even in a forum about mafia) and I've thought so for a while now.

Thank you!

[TemporalLich]

gunbearer kinda is better for themes and (for non-Mafia) some bastard games

being able to modify the factional kill might be considered for Normalizing but I think proposing unique roles in the vein of Strongman for some more interesting factional kill combinations is better for a Normal as each combo can be looked at by the NRG

also add Strongman as a modifier (or just add Strong-Willed, which is imo better)

[lendunistus]

I also propose

Gunbearer

and

Gunless

, which have the following abilities/modifiers:

Welcome! You are a

Mafia Traitor Gunbearer

.

You do not have access to the Mafia PT. Your partners are XXX and YYY. They do not know who you are but know you exist. If you are the only remaining Mafia member you will surrender and the Mafia will lose.

You have access to the Mafia's factional kill. At night you may send me the name of a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

so then you can modify this ability.

Welcome! You are a

Mafia Multitasking Roleblocker 2-Shot Compulsive Gunbearer

.

You have access to the Mafia's factional kill.

Twice in the game at night you must send me the name of a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

In addition at night you may send me the name of a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player's action will be blocked.
You may perform both of these actions in the same night.

...or give it to a Townie/SK.

Welcome! You are a

Serial Killer 1-Shot Novice Gunbearer

.

At night you may send me the name of a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

In addition, once in the game (but not on Night 1), you have access to the Mafia's factional kill. At night you may send me the name of a player and indicate you are bearing the gun. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

and Gunless is a modifier that does the reverse.

Welcome! You are a

Gunless Mafia Rolestopper

.

You do not have access to the Mafia's factional kill. The game does not end if you are the last member of the Mafia remaining.

gunbearer as an all alignment modifier would probably never pass as normal since it alters the factional kill and redirector (which can do the same thing) is already an explicitly non-normal role

gunbearer/gunless could work as a mafia-only modifer though

[TemporalLich]

Echoing this from The "I need this role to be defined somewhere" thread:

Defining some "Combined Goon X" combos here - which will also allow them to be on Serial Killers:

Enforcer - A role that roleblocks as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Roleblocker)
Squelcher - A role that rolestops as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Rolestopper)
Vaporizer - A role that uses alien ability as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Alien)
Wraith - A role that commutes as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Commuter)

[T3]

Would a PoE version parity cop ever be normal? Like each night you put in 2 names and then you either get "same alignment" or different alignment.

[Dwlee99]

What do people think of making it normal that vengeful disables in ELO/MELO?

Edit: or making it normal for a mod to choose functionality through modifiers, like what Cook suggested below.

[Cook]

Pressured

Role ceases to function when eliminating a member of its faction would cause that faction's loss.

ELo

Role only functions when the town not eliminating scum would cause a loss.

MeLo

Role only functions when the town eliminating one of their own would cause a loss.

[Dwlee99]

1-shot + M/ELO modifiers could be interesting in games where it is unclear how many mafia there are.

[Umlaut]

It's interesting that these would elevate the concepts of elo/melo into actual "rules of the game" territory, rather than being derived concepts emerging from the rules as I have always considered them to be.

I'm worried that any attempt to define precisely when a game is in ELo/MeLo is likely to have annoyingly counterintuitive edge cases. For example it could occur that Mafia would choose to no-kill in a situation where any kill would win them the game because they are worried about some possible combination of roles getting them in trouble if they kill the wrong person (even though that combination of roles doesn't actually exist in the setup, they might think it does). In that case has the Mafia already won or not? We can give general guidelines but in the end it is always a moderator judgment call, which means that whether the game was in ELo/MeLo the day before is a judgment call too, which means that as it stands the operation of a role with a ELo/MeLo modifier is subjective.

(Also ELo and MeLo are usually descriptions of a day phase whereas most roles function at night)

[Dwlee99]

I agree with your concerns and I think you would have to make these decisions during review if putting these modifiers into the game.

Edit: adding to the above, it could be made more concrete by making a general modifier of (this is a scuffed name) "x-differential" where the role disables when town - anti-town <= x. This gives the modifier clear use for both night and day phases imo and also resolves ambiguities wrt how the role would function in multiball.

[TemporalLich]

maybe this could be a good way to implement such a gated role?:

Sleepy

Your role only functions if there are 5 or less players alive.

A roundabout way of making a role only function the Night before ELo or MeLo.

[mastina]

Echoing this from The "I need this role to be defined somewhere" thread:

Defining some "Combined Goon X" combos here - which will also allow them to be on Serial Killers:

Enforcer - A role that roleblocks as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Roleblocker)
Squelcher - A role that rolestops as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Rolestopper)
Vaporizer - A role that uses alien ability as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Alien)
Wraith - A role that commutes as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Commuter)

I'd like to point out that any role which rolestops/aliens the target would, strictly speaking, prevent the kill from going through--so a Vaporizer/Squelcher could not actually kill their target when using the factional nightkill.

[Dwlee99]

The wiki for NAR says

For actions which combine two other actions use the first one listed.

This makes me believe a combined goon rolestopper would kill then rolestop.

[TemporalLich]

Echoing this from The "I need this role to be defined somewhere" thread:

Defining some "Combined Goon X" combos here - which will also allow them to be on Serial Killers:

Enforcer - A role that roleblocks as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Roleblocker)
Squelcher - A role that rolestops as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Rolestopper)
Vaporizer - A role that uses alien ability as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Alien)
Wraith - A role that commutes as it performs a factional kill (Combined Goon Commuter)

I'd like to point out that any role which rolestops/aliens the target would, strictly speaking, prevent the kill from going through--so a Vaporizer/Squelcher could not actually kill their target when using the factional nightkill.

The town equivalent would be Combined Vigilante Rolestopper and Combined Vigilante Alien - having rolestop prevent the kills from those roles would make those roles pointless and also make a Squelcher and a Vaporizer not Normal.

Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?

Not being able to combine the factional kill but being able to combine Vigilante leads to an asymmetry with weird kill roles - such are Town only. Strongman is an asymmetry in favor of factional kills, it can't be used as a modifier in Normal games so Strongman Vigilante isn't normal.

A Vaporizer that works like Mastina described (one that voids out the factional NK) I would probably describe as a Distracting Alien (

Distracting

is a modifier that means "Your faction may not use the factional kill if you use this ability, attempting to use this ability will reveal it in the Mafia PT")

[Kerset]

Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?

You got Personal.

[TemporalLich]

Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?

You got Personal.

yeah but you still have Vigilante.