Newbie 2073: Parfait (Over)

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.05

T3 (1):

Val89

GeneralWu (4):

Roden, MegAzumarill, catboi, T3

Roden (2):

Save The Dragons

shwinnebego (1):

navigatorv

catboi (1):

shwinnebego

Not Voting:

GeneralWu

With

9

players remaining,

5

votes to eliminate

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-07-25 22:43:37)

Previous votecount had an error. It is addressed.

[Val89]

However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game.

Roden, since you are around, would you mind explaining this a little more - I'm trying to figure out what I'm feeling about your little back-and-forth with Catboi, and I'm having some difficulty pharsing what you mean here.

[T3]

Remind me when I've fakecrumbed as scum

[Val89]

Remind me when I've fakecrumbed as scum

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12729363

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12786344

Those are the newbie games I looked at; it's possible you did so in other queues, but I only looked the Newbie ones. 4 newbie scum games (2068, 2066, 2065, 2062). Two fake PR softs, one fake PR claim.

Sufficent reminder?

[Val89]

For completeness, the Town!T3 newbies games (at least the completed ones at the time I drew up this table in my notebook) were: 2059, 2061 (You were VT and did not crumb) and 2063 and 2057 in which you were mason and Jailkeeper respectively, and still didn't crumb (although your partner did in your mason game).

The only Town!T3 game you faked crumbed was the one we just finished, 2070, as discused in 171.

[MegAzumarill]

Welcome back Val, glad to hear what you have to say, a lot of it has good points
And what I meant in my earlier post was that it feels like GeneralWu wouldn't have had enough information to realistically want to defend swhinniebago as quickly as she did.
Thus I SR both of them as partners.
Although I still think GeneralWu is a good hang here, after shwinnie has posted more they seem very untrusting. (i.e. they only had 2 TR and 6 SR)
This feels a lot more townie than scummy, although I disagree with quite of few of their reads.
I would like StD and Wu to contribute more to the conversation though.

[Val89]

what I meant in my earlier post was that it feels like GeneralWu wouldn't have had enough information to realistically want to defend swhinniebago as quickly as she did.
Thus I SR both of them as partners.

So, to clarify, there wasn't supposed to be an "either" in that previous sentence, you were just reading GeneralWu and Swhinniebago as scum partners based on 120-124; but you are no longer doing so because Swhinniebago has redeemed themselves somewhat in your eyes with the readlist in 172?

after shwinnie has posted more they seem very untrusting. (i.e. they only had 2 TR and 6 SR)
This feels a lot more townie than scummy

If we are talking about 172, I think you might have miscounted a bit, there. I see 3 townreads (GeneralWu, Navigator and myself), one null (StD) and 4 scumreads of varying degree.

In any case, why would you consider someone having a larger number of scumreads than townreads as being more likely to be town than scum? I ask because I am inclined to think the opposite, so it would be interesting to hear your thought process on this.

As an aside; I can't help but roll my eyes when I see someone included themselves in a read list. I always feel like it might be a scummy attempt to try and implant the subconscious brainworm "OP is town, OP is town" every time you are looking through the ISO, but I've seen town do it more than once now, so I acknowledge it may well be NAI.

[catboi]

My problem here is that, yes, this is a newbie game, but you've played Mafia long enough that you should know that one vote =/= execution, only a hammer does. My vote on Shwinnebego was the only vote on him and I was the only person trying to apply pressure. He wasn't in any danger of getting flash wagon'd, let alone eliminated. Not only that, but Wu clearly already had a wagon going, and T3 had two votes on him and was within wagon range. If I'm scum they're the more clear choice here, since Wu already has suspicion on him and I already said I had suspicions on T3.

It's not like I'm just bullshitting either. You have a read on Shwinnebego now that you didn't have before. I don't see how you can genuinely scum read me while also benefiting from the pressure I applied which you scum read me for.

Well, I'm not really sure your vote was what provoked the response from shwinn that lead me to read him as town, and even if it

were

, that doesn't make you inherently town, you know? I know Shwinn wasn't in danger of getting executed, that wasn't my problem with your vote - my problem was more along the line that your vote felt like one scum would make, going after someone on a technicality like them being inactive when they're used to shorter games, which, as I said, felt like a "gotcha", when in reality it's very likely he just wasn't that interested in the game regardless of alignment.

I think there's a misunderstanding here or maybe I wasn't clear enough with my intentions. Considering T3 and Wu also reacted similarly as you, it's probably the latter. I wasn't trying to get Shwinn elim'd or even really get a wagon going, I was basically just pointing an empty gun at him and telling him to explain. I wasn't trying to provoke an inactive player to post more, but just get him to clear up the situation. What bugged me is that nobody seemed to want to let him and kept trying to speak for him.

After that last post, it's not looking good. Scum reading somebody for applying pressure on a non-presence doesnt feel like a town thought process at all. However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game. I'm just gonna stand back for now.

*Shrug* As I've said, wasn't about you applying pressure necessarily, but the way an reason you did it.


I don't scum read you any more, though.


VOTE: GeneralWu

Are you getting bad vibes from Wu? Or do you think he just hasn't really done much to get a town read yet?

It certainly didn't look like you were just pressuring shwinn to post more - you specifically called him out on his absence in 115, saying it "doesn't really add up". Looked like a serious suspicion to me.

Having decided my suspicion on you might be misplaced, I moved back to my original read, because I feel like despite the game kicking into a higher gear, a mjaority of GeneralWu's posts still aren't really scumhunting or saying anything useful.

[catboi]

I like how Val has started off. Need to see T3's response here.

[Roden]

However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game.

Roden, since you are around, would you mind explaining this a little more - I'm trying to figure out what I'm feeling about your little back-and-forth with Catboi, and I'm having some difficulty pharsing what you mean here.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86996

Idk how much homework you want to do, but this specific game showcases my biggest weakness as town. I got death tunneled by Nancy and reacted pretty badly, though Bulge didn't really help there since he thought gaslighting as town was somehow a good idea.

But basically, when I get scum read as town I tend to think the person accusing me is likely scum, especially if I think they have a really bad reason for doing so. I'm trying to fix that and avoid ten pages of arguing over nothing by stepping back in regards to Catboi, because even if he is scum I might end up getting disregarded or mis-elim'd instead. Mainly because I don't think tunnel arguments generate a whole lot of viable content and it'll more likely just shit up the thread.

[Val89]

when I get scum read as town I tend to think the person accusing me is likely scum, especially if I think they have a really bad reason for doing so. I'm trying to fix that and avoid ten pages of arguing over nothing by stepping back in regards to Catboi, because even if he is scum I might end up getting disregarded or mis-elim'd instead.

Man, I feel that one. Makes perfect sense now; thanks for clarifying.

Nancy was in that game??

[Roden]

It certainly didn't look like you were just pressuring shwinn to post more - you specifically called him out on his absence in 115, saying it "doesn't really add up". Looked like a serious suspicion to me.

That's what I'm saying though. It

was

a serious suspicion. It doesn't mean I want him gone ASAP.

Having decided my suspicion on you might be misplaced, I moved back to my original read, because I feel like despite the game kicking into a higher gear, a mjaority of GeneralWu's posts still aren't really scumhunting or saying anything useful.

That's why my vote's on him too. He has the second highest post count yet not really any content or anything to work with. My only interactions with him so far have either been off topic or disputing why he's hard defending people without giving any reason to do so.

123 in particular doesn't read as a reasonable or logical conclusion to come to. It reads more like an accusation, but he doesn't push it or pressure me in any way for it. I think he wanted to vote me, but maybe he didn't want to get accused of OMGUS. Though strangely enough he's the only player who hasn't voted at all yet.

[Roden]

when I get scum read as town I tend to think the person accusing me is likely scum, especially if I think they have a really bad reason for doing so. I'm trying to fix that and avoid ten pages of arguing over nothing by stepping back in regards to Catboi, because even if he is scum I might end up getting disregarded or mis-elim'd instead.

Man, I feel that one. Makes perfect sense now; thanks for clarifying.

Nancy was in that game??

Oof, my bad, I meant Nora. I actually caught myself almost calling Nancy "Nora" by accident in our last Newbie game lol. My only excuse is I had them one after the other in my last two games and they both have normal female names that start with N.

[catboi]

It certainly didn't look like you were just pressuring shwinn to post more - you specifically called him out on his absence in 115, saying it "doesn't really add up". Looked like a serious suspicion to me.

That's what I'm saying though. It

was

a serious suspicion. It doesn't mean I want him gone ASAP.

Right, I think I'm going to just chalk this up to misunderstanding how you were approaching things/reading too much into a vote at this point.

[Val89]

To be fair to GeneralWu, I think your (Roden) 121 could be reasonably, if a bit naively, read as "I am starting to find you suspicious for failing to see Schwinn as suspicious".

That isn't to say I think GeneralWu is town; just that I think you might be reading too much into 123. I think

it is

fair to point to the lack of game-advancing content in the early stages, and though I understand the votes that have been placed on the slot so far, I think it's far too little to justify an actual hammer at this point in the game. Personally, I would call them a

null

to

very slight scumlean

at this stage, and I think there is enough to work with to help sort other slots that we don't need the hammer right now to make further progress today.

Speaking of hammers; the potential sources of the GeneralWu hammer are

myself

(which isn't going to happen right now, as above),

Schwinn

; which is probably unlikely due to the TR he's given Wu,

navigator

, and

StD

. I don't think we are liable to see a quickhammer from Navigator or StD, but I will go on the record now as saying I would have serious suspicions about either slot if they were to end the day here.

On the subject of Schwinn read on Wu:

GeneralWu - Town. The fact that votes stacked up so easily suggests that one of the folks on them is worth looking at. I bet the wolves split today

Is the fact that the wagon took off as quick as it did the only reason you have for townreading Wu at this point? Also, what do you mean by the "wolves split today"?

[T3]

Remind me when I've fakecrumbed as scum

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12729363

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12786344

Those are the newbie games I looked at; it's possible you did so in other queues, but I only looked the Newbie ones. 4 newbie scum games (2068, 2066, 2065, 2062). Two fake PR softs, one fake PR claim.

Sufficent reminder?

Yeah.
I just roll scum a lot tbh

[catboi]

I feel like you're avoiding actually addressing val's accusation toward you.

[shwinnebego]

.

But basically, when I get scum read as town I tend to think the person accusing me is likely scum, especially if I think they have a really bad reason for doing so.

Let’s see how well your self improvement regiment is working. You are scum! I think it’s evil to share your own internal process about how you react to being sussed. Real townies have no feelings, we sublimate ourselves to the collective good. VOTE: Roden

[shwinnebego]

I’ll hammer General Wu right now out of boredom if someone asks me to

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

[shwinnebego]

UNVOTE:

Why’d ya do that?

[shwinnebego]

Why don’t you want General Wu hammered?

[shwinnebego]

That’s a highly suspicious move. Putting vote pressure on Wu and then hopping off after I threatened a hammer?

I’m struggling to read that behavior through a town lens.

[shwinnebego]

In fact this might be the first serious substantive reason to vote for anyone I’ve had so far. Now we’re talking. Jokephase is over for me folks, let’s hunt some ice cream melting monsters.

[catboi]

Because

1. It is still early enough in the day that I feel there is productive discussion to be had still.
2. I don't want anyone hammered without a claim, that's just bad form in newbie games.
3. I am hardly confident enough in my read of GeneralWu that I want him to be hammered right now.