Silent Star 4: Yin and Yang

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

this exchange:



Ydrasse not having a strong reason off the top of her head is kind of shady imo.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

pasting problem with above post

this is the exchange I am talking about:

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like for context:



I don't trust cat ate my homework posts.

and I really don't like that she spent 20 minutes writing out a huge case but can't come up with one good reason off the top of her head to answer Tanner in the moment.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Like she just keeps putting this off?

I don't think she ever had good reasons to scum-read Nakata at this point.

I think if she did she would've been able to produce something for Tanner by now.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I really like Flea's ISO on this page, Flea feels like they are not informed.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I don't like Clidd's Defense of Ircher here:







It feels informed and agenda'd

He also votes Nakata without explanation as a naked vote here not long after:




The biggest issue I have is why is Clidd so hard on defending Ircher for not playing but has no issue hammering Infinity when Infinity is also not playing the game and this logic he is using to defend Ircher could easily be applied to Infinity as well?

I haven't gotten up to the Infinity wagon in my re-read yet but I do not like Clidd's Ircher defense.

[Ydrasse]

i can't sleep don't yell at me but i don't feel as much like puking

the thing with my laptop was that i had spilled something on my main one so it was drying out and i brought out my old one but not the charger like a fool. if i am lying about that in a game i am fucking hopeless LMAO

and as for the nakata thing, pooke, if i wanted to have a better stance on nakata i would have actually written the case. like if i am informed, and i know my partner is doing a ton of scummy things and i know what the wincon is going to be later, i don't just go "yeah i was doing this case but now i can't remember so i'm just gonna not bother with it right now." i want to have good reason to push him through later on so that people will actually be on board and i don't pitstop for robert on the way going "yeah this dude sucks let's get him instead". like i even admitted i thought the reasons i had for nakata weren't the best so i slowed my roll there

like the entire goal at that point would be for me to produce a case for tanner that he wanted to reassure him instead of handwaving it

[Ydrasse]

also: i feel pretty ill right now so my brain is shut off but i have more reasons to think that flea could be town than i do robert. i'm willing to give nakata some time but he's quickly falling into the same pattern for me as robert: not around a lot, feels like he's around a bit more when he's talked about? he's at least done some solving. not sure if infinity's voting on nakata clears him necessarily but robertvote is goodvote

VOTE: robert

infinity re nakata

Spoiler:

VOTE: nakata I like this

I agree, nakata's theory seems like he just tried to come up with a justification for TRing ydrasse and SRing the others on his wagon and it at least doesn't seem thought through.

Ok but can we elim nakata? The whole interaction with Amy looked like he wanted to maintain his scumread without having to argue about it. I do feel like Amy was overreacting to his scumread, and I understand why he wanted to avoid that argument, but I'd expect town who believed in their read to at least push on it, or like give reasons, or something.

-Nakata said that the people on his wagon were trying to get ydrasse to look bad after he flipped town, that seems like something scum would never do and seems made up

-Nakata's SR on amy had like no reasoning and it felt like he was trying to appease amy in their interactions which he wouldn't do as town

PEdit: I don't know, maybe he thought I was limbait anyway

Nakata is saying that Amy Dunne is telling a lie by saying that Nakata was hardpushing Robert M Hunter when Nakata has done no such thing!

Nakata would appreciate Amy Dunne not taking personal insult, Nakata has no problems with anyone in this playerlist, Nakata simply thinks that Amy Dunne is scum. Nakata doesn't know what Amy Dunne is expecting him to say when she says "tell me why I'm wrong on you". Nakata has already told you that he is town!

Nakata does not believe Amy Dunne. Nakata thinks that if Amy Dunne is scum, that's exactly what she'd say, and that her attempts to push Nakata while not being accurate in her depiction of what Nakata has done this game show that her primary interest is in limming him and not sorting him, whereas if she were town Nakata thinks she'd be more interested in the sorting part.

@amy He's spending more time talking about how you shouldn't be upset that he's scumreading you and saying that he scumreads you rather than explaining his actual reasoning. The reasoning itself has a lot to do with you saying he was hardpushing Robert instead of just pushing Robert. It's all very fake.

Nakata does not understand getting upset with someone because they may be misreading you. If Amy Dunne is a friend and Nakata is wrong, then Nakata is not upset with Amy Dunne for misreading him. Nakata wishes Amy Dunne all the best. However, Nakata does not believe Amy Dunne to be town and does not think asserting that she is town is enough reason to believe this, especially given that Nakata knows she is pushing someone who Nakata does know is town.

Infinity, how do you get “appeasement” from this?

He's not trying to push you, he's just repeating that he scumreads you and saying that you shouldn't get upset over it.

We should lim nakata

VOTE: nakata

Ircher is confusing, nakata is scummy

infinity only votes nakata when he's beginning to receive votes from amy and clidd. it's actually the first time that infinity mentions nakata at all and then spends a good amount of time fixating on him. idk if that means that infinity was trying to distance from nakata for towncred or to try and protect top wagon at the time (robert, on 3 and then chara on 2). it feels like infinity put like, all her effort into this one read so like, can someone smarter figure out what was going on here.

nakata actually doing stuff would make this a lot easier to solve him i think but we don't always get what we want i guess

if robert scum, nakata town: robert was at that point at 3 votes, but with amy + clidd voting nakata infinity throws one down making it top wagon over robert, trying to protect partner

if nakata scum, robert town: trying to get town credit by throwing partner under the bus, which i think is not entirely unlikely because of the attention to detail infinity gave nakata compared to her other reads

if nakata scum, robert scum: lol

looking at it like this though, i'm inclined to believe the first choice makes slightly more sense. this requires a metacheck though to see how into bussing infinity is

like @pooky it feels like you're ignoring the parts where i am going ??? maybe town nakata maybe not??? and wavering back and forth /because/ i wasn't as positive in my reasons and you're trying to case me like this is a a normal game of mafia instead of realizing that this is actually clearing for me lol

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I mean it wasn't that you couldn't produce a beautifully written case for tanner that I didn't like Ydra,

it was that you didn't have even a summary or like a one sentence reason to give him off the top of your head?

[Ydrasse]

i was actually so mad at the time i didn't want to engage with it much / go back through to put in the time and it would have been the same things i had already said about him so far

and then after the fact i actually couldn't remember what i saw that was So Bad in the moment of writing the case, and trying to rekindle it wasn't working so i dropped it

which sometimes does just... happen for me. i don't go back a lot so if i have it in the moment and don't get it down it gets lost

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

also: i feel pretty ill right now so my brain is shut off but i have more reasons to think that flea could be town than i do robert. i'm willing to give nakata some time but he's quickly falling into the same pattern for me as robert: not around a lot, feels like he's around a bit more when he's talked about? he's at least done some solving. not sure if infinity's voting on nakata clears him necessarily but robertvote is goodvote

VOTE: robert

infinity re nakata

Spoiler:

VOTE: nakata I like this

I agree, nakata's theory seems like he just tried to come up with a justification for TRing ydrasse and SRing the others on his wagon and it at least doesn't seem thought through.

Ok but can we elim nakata? The whole interaction with Amy looked like he wanted to maintain his scumread without having to argue about it. I do feel like Amy was overreacting to his scumread, and I understand why he wanted to avoid that argument, but I'd expect town who believed in their read to at least push on it, or like give reasons, or something.

-Nakata said that the people on his wagon were trying to get ydrasse to look bad after he flipped town, that seems like something scum would never do and seems made up

-Nakata's SR on amy had like no reasoning and it felt like he was trying to appease amy in their interactions which he wouldn't do as town

PEdit: I don't know, maybe he thought I was limbait anyway

Nakata is saying that Amy Dunne is telling a lie by saying that Nakata was hardpushing Robert M Hunter when Nakata has done no such thing!

Nakata would appreciate Amy Dunne not taking personal insult, Nakata has no problems with anyone in this playerlist, Nakata simply thinks that Amy Dunne is scum. Nakata doesn't know what Amy Dunne is expecting him to say when she says "tell me why I'm wrong on you". Nakata has already told you that he is town!

Nakata does not believe Amy Dunne. Nakata thinks that if Amy Dunne is scum, that's exactly what she'd say, and that her attempts to push Nakata while not being accurate in her depiction of what Nakata has done this game show that her primary interest is in limming him and not sorting him, whereas if she were town Nakata thinks she'd be more interested in the sorting part.

@amy He's spending more time talking about how you shouldn't be upset that he's scumreading you and saying that he scumreads you rather than explaining his actual reasoning. The reasoning itself has a lot to do with you saying he was hardpushing Robert instead of just pushing Robert. It's all very fake.

Nakata does not understand getting upset with someone because they may be misreading you. If Amy Dunne is a friend and Nakata is wrong, then Nakata is not upset with Amy Dunne for misreading him. Nakata wishes Amy Dunne all the best. However, Nakata does not believe Amy Dunne to be town and does not think asserting that she is town is enough reason to believe this, especially given that Nakata knows she is pushing someone who Nakata does know is town.

Infinity, how do you get “appeasement” from this?

He's not trying to push you, he's just repeating that he scumreads you and saying that you shouldn't get upset over it.

We should lim nakata

VOTE: nakata

Ircher is confusing, nakata is scummy

infinity only votes nakata when he's beginning to receive votes from amy and clidd. it's actually the first time that infinity mentions nakata at all and then spends a good amount of time fixating on him. idk if that means that infinity was trying to distance from nakata for towncred or to try and protect top wagon at the time (robert, on 3 and then chara on 2). it feels like infinity put like, all her effort into this one read so like, can someone smarter figure out what was going on here.

nakata actually doing stuff would make this a lot easier to solve him i think but we don't always get what we want i guess

if robert scum, nakata town: robert was at that point at 3 votes, but with amy + clidd voting nakata infinity throws one down making it top wagon over robert, trying to protect partner

if nakata scum, robert town: trying to get town credit by throwing partner under the bus, which i think is not entirely unlikely because of the attention to detail infinity gave nakata compared to her other reads

if nakata scum, robert scum: lol

looking at it like this though, i'm inclined to believe the first choice makes slightly more sense. this requires a metacheck though to see how into bussing infinity is

like @pooky it feels like you're ignoring the parts where i am going ??? maybe town nakata maybe not??? and wavering back and forth /because/ i wasn't as positive in my reasons and you're trying to case me like this is a a normal game of mafia instead of realizing that this is actually clearing for me lol

Ydra I'm not ignoring those parts. I've simply not gotten to that page in my re-read yet.

You can see from the screenshots I'm currently around page 52 right now.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i was actually so mad at the time i didn't want to engage with it much / go back through to put in the time and it would have been the same things i had already said about him so far

and then after the fact i actually couldn't remember what i saw that was So Bad in the moment of writing the case, and trying to rekindle it wasn't working so i dropped it

which sometimes does just... happen for me. i don't go back a lot so if i have it in the moment and don't get it down it gets lost

I forget things when I write as well but I don't forget the main point of my case? I just have trouble believing you'd forget the main reason why you thought Nakata was scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i'll be honest,

when I read this post:



it feels like someone who's mafia who is in utter disbelief that a town player could play so anti-town as to be close to having a jester role PM and in such a way that gets another anti-town playing townie close to elim which ironically happens to be very counter to the mafia win condition.

I don't need to say how much of a bad situation the mafia would be in if D1 had ended up with Robert pushing an Ircher yeet which leads to a Robert yeet on D2. Both town LHFs going out by playing out of their minds scummy in a game where the actual town win condition is to get yeeted?

One can only laugh at the irony of the situation.

[Ydrasse]

i've forgotten important things before and just left them be, if you want an example i can think of at least 1 off the top of my head

but like, even so i think that if i am scum with nakata i... definitely don't forget, yes? i just write something for tanner to appease him and move on?

[Ydrasse]

at that point i had been saying "oh robert shouldn't be voted for now he's definitely limbait it feels lazy to give into that" and also defending ircher because he was playing unlike his scum meta

and then robert comes in and stomps all over that by doing a scummy vote on someone i townread so of course i am going to be like "well fuck am i wrong"

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

the scum are not scared of a townblock formation early in the game,

they are scared of LHF towns getting yeeted one after the other because they are doing scummy things pushing each other.

T/T fights are absolutely terrible for scum in this setup pre-reveal since it can lead to T->T elims esp on people who have the wrong view of the game.

so I'm re-reading D1 to see who had the worst defenses for the Ircher/Robert Wagons because those were the real threat to the scum win condition in this game.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

but like, even so i think that if i am scum with nakata i... definitely don't forget, yes? i just write something for tanner to appease him and move on?

this is just wifom?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

at that point i had been saying "oh robert shouldn't be voted for now he's definitely limbait it feels lazy to give into that" and also defending ircher because he was playing unlike his scum meta

and then robert comes in and stomps all over that by doing a scummy vote on someone i townread so of course i am going to be like "well fuck am i wrong"

I don't see how you could have a townread of Ircher at that point in the game.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like Ircher literally did almost nothing at that point in the game

[Ydrasse]

i don't think me having caught ircher almost immediately for him playing a certain way and seeing him /not/ play like that is a bad defense by any means and i believed it. especially when he made that one longer post that felt like he was actually thinking about this game rather than ignoring it/giving reasons not to solve and hiding behind those all game.

the robert one wasn't the best but i changed my mind on that because the dude was playing uh. i want to be nice but *smiles at his play*.

[Ydrasse]

(1) What do you think about Nakata voting Ircher?

Probably town. I think 946 is the more telling post though whereas the vote itself is kinda null.

(2) Assuming an Ircher scumflip, which hypothetical partners would you have in mind?

If I flipped scum, I would look in the people defending me. That being said, I'm not, so this question is rather pointless for me to answer.

(3) What do you think about Nakata?

Overall, it's mixed signals, but it is that aspect that makes me lean more towards town.

Let's take for instance his recent pivot back to Tweet. 1481 is a comment about Tweet being under the radar. I buy that actually, but you have to be careful with how you interpret that. By under the radar, we aren't talking slipping by snd coasting like lazy scum. No, the way to interpret this is that Tweet isn't receiving a lot of attention; instead, people are more or less dismissing her as town. Whether this dismissal is justified is not relevant.

1548 is a bit hypocritical and Tweet called him out for it, but it makes sense with the current trajectory that Nakata is pushing. 1550 rings as town to me; it has the right level of conviction to it, yet at the same time, he acknowledges his own biases/limitations. While individually not distinctive, it's the combination that stands out. Scum are either lacking in conviction (because they want to keep their options open) or don't admit the limitations of their reads (because they want them to go through, especially if it is for a mislim).

1558 is based on what I'd consider accurate facts and is a fair analysis. Despite the number of times my name has come up, it is only very recently that any real wagon has formed on me. Both the Nakata and Infinity wagon built up in a much shorter period of time.

Last thing to note is that the pivot though maybe ill-timed, didn't come from left field. Nakata has expressed a pretty consistent stance with regards to Tweet; it's only the relative strength of the read that has wavered some.

(4) What do you think about Nakata' initial paranoia on the players who were inside his wagon?

I assume you are referring to roughly 851 and nearby posts here. I think it's a natural reaction pretty much everyone initially has to their own wagon. It's just the nature of one's personal bias.

(5) Which post reflects you as the most scummy(or towny) from Nakata's iso?

I'm not paying enough attention to give a definitive worst/best post. I think many of the posts I've linked above go towards towniness (though some are more neutral/nai). The posts like 903 where Nakata seems worried about how his posting style is perceived strike me as his worst posts.

(6) What do you think about Robert?

His vote was the worst of the six I quoted. Most of my views probably align with Tanner's on this slot. I do think he is doing what is most convenient for his survival, and I wasn't a fan of 738 or 741 where he basically says everyone is scum. I don't think he did a good job responding when I tried to get some insight into his thought process around 1222 and later. Also in response to 1240: I don't have a read on Ydrasse and probably won't have one. Her playstyle is not the kind that "fits" so to speak to my scumhunting sensitives. 1244 by the way was an irrelevant remark made in an attempt to dismiss the question.

That being said, I do have reservations of going flat out "Robert is scum." The low hanging fruit argument is one of them. I also think that string of posts that I called him out for (for complaining about others thinking he would get replaced) may come from town even though it reflects poorly. That is, I think the frustration Robert has shown is potentially town.

(7) Do you see scum motivation in Robert's actions?

Depends on how you look at it. Survivalism does seem to be a theme, and that has clear scum motivations.

(8) Which post reflects you as the most scummy(or towny) from Robert's iso?

1244 and 1188 are the worst. I'm not sure there is a best one from him.

(9) What do you think about Chara?

I have no initial thoughts. Glancing through its ISO, 617 and 633 kind of stands out. Chara is very keen on emphasizing 611 is a joke. Idk what to think about it from an alignment standpoint; it just strikes me as weird that Chara feels Ydrasse was offended by it. Maybe I am not reading carefully enough (and Ydrasse was actually offended). 843 and 845 is a respectable analysis of Robert's posts, but I don't think that directly leads to a town read. Overall, no real red flags, but I don't have a read one way or another.

(11) Which post reflects you as the most scummy(or towny) from Chara's iso?

I pretty much answered this, but I'll add the caveat that I've not been exerting much effort or exercising much analysis on Chara's posts in general.

(12) What do you think about Infinity?

Her posts have more or less escaped my notice so far. Take that as you will. Looking through her ISO, she mentions Nakata a bunch. Notably, she is pushing for a Nakata fade. Other than that, I don't really see her pushing much of an agenda. Comparing this to two relatively recently games I've played with Infinity, I'm kind of inclined to say this one actually matches the town one more, but that's a rather shallow meta comparison.

my read on ircher was more meta-based before this but this was the post that made me not want to vote ircher because this isn't the sort of post scum!ircher makes, having seen how he likes to approach it (politically/with a hint more of playing the room as he did on war & peace), here he was actually proving that he had been following the game and considering it even if he wasn't sharing it all at the time. i didn't agree with everything but i had no reason to believe at that point that he was hiding/lying

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

gonna do some RL stuff then back to re-reading when I have time.

good night Ydra <3

I still think you are a baddie ~.~ sowwie <,<

also you talk alot about who you want to leave, but who do you think the scum are in this game?

[Ydrasse]

>_> i don't know

i have three people i want to leave two if you don't want to include me

before this i've erred towards clidd/chara because i don't actually think anyone was playing an especially scummy game. the closest i have to thinking someone is 'scummy' is flea but the reasons that i would think fae is scummy in a traditional game don't make sense for this one.

i've started getting this sinking feeling that you are because you're going after me and given the fact that amy townreads you the second most and puts a lot of stock in you not doing things as scum (which i do still disagree with) it feels like the best chance you have is to go after me right now because if you're scum your partner couldn't do it. and taking out me who i think is pretty solidly a confirmed slot to leave in the moment does wonders for you to win. that and i think the things that you're saying about my game making me bad are things that aren't actually bad

so ya

[Ydrasse]

as for who else it could be fuck if i know but i also don't really care if i'm trying to get 1 more town player and we just throw in flea

[Ydrasse]

i’m going to be the first to admit i don’t remember what you were doing early game pooky but i also have the sense you’re only now kicking it into gear by going after everyone