Newbie 2071: The Sandwich Debate - End!

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 2-5

This one is stuffed with hallioumi and harissa paste. Hallioumi has a higher melting point than most cheeses. Sign me up!

Looker

(1): HockeyFan

T3

(1): T3

Not Voting

(5): Looker, Clasko, Lady Lambdadelta, GrandpaMo, petapan

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

Deadline: July 26, 1 PM US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-07-26 10:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- fferyllt-Cabd combined ISO for vote counts
-

[petapan]

so now that i've covered all that ground, i can get into the meat of why i think it's hockeyfan. luckily, his ISO is full of mentions of T3, and i think they look quite bad for him:

Spoiler:

cow is town.

T3, is this gonna be another game where u give reads without much explanation and never give the explanation when asked?

Specifically why I think cows is town is because his thought is too complex for a fresh newb straight from mafia.gg.

I disagree but eh its fine, at least this time the TR is justified from u so maybe you are actually town this game

first real meaningful interaction here, hockey pressures T3 for not explaining his read, and T3 gives a very weak explanation of cows' thoughts being "too complex". somehow this mediocre explanation was enough to satisfy hockeyfan and make him suggest T3 is town. this is the kind of thing i find partnery - scum want to interact and look like they're putting pressure on each other, but they don't want to actually go too hard and get their partner eliminated, so they'll ask their teammates questions to seem curious, but not really care about the answers.

Spoiler:

Yea... I said town has 0 reason to say it but if u read 173, i explained in the first half of it, scum has no reason to do it either

so does that mean u null read james?

so wait...

we literally came to the same conclusion but with a different approach sorta (me, u and bulge)

and if im understanding this correctly... u liked bulge's response because u understand their logic vs mine?

Yes, which is why i am tring bulge

im so confused

omfg what are you confused about. To go over once again everything I've said. James post 40 is NAI, your reading of it was Scum leaning and Bulges analysis of it was Town. There? Also @cows, why do u SR t3

How do you roll scum so often, T3?

Hey VFP, u seem to be SR'ing t3 here, any particular reason?

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Okay so since this is a "semi-serious" vote, u better be ACTUALLY pushing it smfh. Dont just leave your vote there as a chance to bw/sheep others. Also how many votes is that on t3 rn? 3? like wtf is going on lmao

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

How do you roll scum so often, T3?

Hey VFP, u seem to be SR'ing t3 here, any particular reason?

VFP isnt me but i have a post in drafts that explains it, let me try and finish it up in the coming hours

cleaning up prior thoughts and then going to bed
about as ordered as a d1 rainbow can be

beesechurger (wasnt mentioned before but their opening post is more genuine-informative than scum can ever be)
james
hockey
rock
--townreads stop here
bulge
VFP is true null
grandpa
t3

if you need clarification ask

i have it..........

pot deserves stirring. VOTE: GrandpaMo

cows seems to be pushing/Sr'ing T3 more tho

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

cows is pushing me lol and puts me scum wit t3 lol

and its weird that i scum read vfp

wait

my vote pool is literally vfp, t3, and rocky

What is this vote pool lol

cows seems to be pushing/Sr'ing T3 more tho

they are voting me lol ...

didnt know voting someone is "pushing" them. In fact cows even labelled the vote as "stirring" the pot. I am just gonna drop this convo as its irrelevant lol. why do u care who cows is pushing more.

My first Read List

Town:

Bulge

Null:
T3
Cows
James

Weak Scum:

Gpa
VFP

Its NAI cuz I dont think scum posts smth like that early into the game. Likewise, theres no reason for any VT to claim their role d1 so its not something town should do, so imo its NAI

...how is this not the same thing as 'tstbs' tho? you're saying you don't think scum would post something anti-town so early, which is the exact same thought process as tstbs.

because its full null, I also think town has 0 reason to do this. This is different than tstbs, because if u think they're "tstsbs" you SR them in some sort already which I didnt do

'tstbs' implies a townread.

Once again, I never said "tstbs"

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Okay so since this is a "semi-serious" vote, u better be ACTUALLY pushing it smfh. Dont just leave your vote there as a chance to bw/sheep others. Also how many votes is that on t3 rn? 3? like wtf is going on lmao

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

I dont understand what the big deal here is? what is so shocking to you about a wagon of 3?

That early into the game is shocking especally when T3 hadnt done anything scummy in eyes

then, when T3 starts getting some early scumreads, hockeyfan starts defending him, questioning why t3 is getting voted, saying he hasn't done anything scummy. it very much looks like he's trying to derail the wagon on t3 here.

Spoiler:

i also do agree its a bad post

but im not responding to it anymore unless u rlly want me to, since everything is just easily either taken out of context / not thought about properly.

i realize if i dont respond then i get ur true thoughts on other ppl, than you just continuing to blindly tunnel me for no reason.

Alright, thats fine. So based on the whole interaction I had with GPA, i think Im confident in switching cows and Gpa in my reads list. I think cows is a bit scum here, because hes refusing to give AI content for the past while. He gave some reads but has shyed away alot from giving an explanation

Wait until you realise how much or little content T3 has provided.

After reading T3's ISO, I do agree with this statement so yea I might like James as town for now

most of my posts won't be this long. essays suck!

i think it's a given that T3's game regardless of alignment will be filled with one liners and things that they won't expand on unless asked repeatedly. because of this i disagree with scumreading them for that only (i think some people are,), and it'll be for slightly different reasons

tonally, i think their earlygame looks really odd and something that i'd usually see from someone that doesn't know how to generate the information they need to plow through earlygame. they're just floating by and chucking a few names out, including the mod(?) pet peeve is people doing that [shoutout to james too,] since it's openly denying people information about yourself and who you are willing to align with, which means you likely have something to hide

Hello everyone!
Hello random mafia.gg people!
Hello to my scumpartner fferry!

I admit it I'm Jester.
I'm kind of tired rn I'll do stuff tomorrow or llater.

when given the chance to align with people, they churn out stuff like this. it's hard to use stuff like this because it's so ambiguous, which I don't like from anybody

unless a new topic comes up i will talk about the claim for 9 more days

wtf
Someone claimed?
Rollin gtown in newbie games burns the soul.

does this count as LAMIST? you just called yourself a jester, dont make it a point to call out that you're town

i think one point for them is the townread on me. it's built on odd reasoning, but it's reasoning that feels like it comes from a personal perspective, possibly from their own experiences when they were a newb that they're applying. i think scum probably doesn't have an incentive to townread me on such shaky grounds, even if it was weak. i asked bulge about the townread and they didn't care about it, then i asked hockey to elaborate on a comment about it and they said they liked it but disagreed? it might be something that you guys don't care about that much but it's probably the first actually AI thing that's come from them

Specifically why I think cows is town is because his thought is too complex for a fresh newb straight from mafia.gg.

This has entered a whole new dimension of misinterpretation.

this was a comment when hockey V grandpamo was happening. understands that it's a misinterpretation but refuses to take any sort of sides. i guess it's pretty funny cause i thought the same thing, so post might be townier than i think

I don't see how refusing to give AI content is a scumtell.

towniest post award (not joking)

a ton of T3's reads are based on meta and they admit this, so i will not comment without the appropriate reading material (wink wink)
i think their unvote on James is towny,

UNVOTE: James
This is a playstyle difference. I put a lot of stock in meta, you don't care about it so you do weird stuff.

the veiled extra information they have on James i don't mind that much but ill pretend that i have it so I can still call James town
tl;dr T3 looks bad earlygame but has lightened up with towny posts

Do u really think T3's latter posts are "town" enough to make up for the scummier posts above? Cuz I dont think so. They're not *that* town to me. Sure they may not be scummy, but defintely not enough to cancel out his scum logs at the beginning of the game so im curious why u think that?

Do u really think T3's latter posts are "town" enough to make up for the scummier posts above? Cuz I dont think so. They're not *that* town to me. Sure they may not be scummy, but defintely not enough to cancel out his scum logs at the beginning of the game so im curious why u think that?

seems rather PRESUMPTUOUS that you think that i think T3's later logs excuse his earlier posts

your tldr of that post was litreally "T3 looks bad earlygame but has lightened up with towny posts"

but they do, because the beginning logs only show an unwillingness to contribute. you seem to think that the logs i showed later are only moderately town, but know that T3's beginning logs are only moderately scummy and so your scumlean doesn't make too much sense, unless you put a lot of weight into scum logs (do you?)

You're just making up stuff now. Never said they were only moderately scummy, but u are right that I do put some weight into scum logs

T3 probably just hates the random voting stage or something

but, suddenly this all shifts, he decides he agrees with james's reasons for scumreading T3 and decides to townread him, and is suddenly attacking cows for

his

defense of t3. this is especially puzzling because suddenly despite claiming t3 hadn't been scummy earlier, suddenly hockeyfan is saying his early posts were scum logs. now, people can change their mind after a reread, of course. but it's kind of surprising to me that he got such a drastically different impression from a reread.

notably, in spite of his apparent agreement with james here, he doesn't really contribute to pressure on t3. instead, we get this exchange:

Spoiler:

SCUM VFP likes to pocket me and then flip on it later game.

lol why tf are you using the same exact thing as what i do....

LOL

i pointed this out in early day 1 intereaction by saying thew same exact thing t3

I didn't see it

maybe because of the 60 line walls

T3 why do u TR cows

Honestly just vibes and an earlier towny post.

Intresting.


Also wtf im still voting Grandpa?
UNVOTE:

that...is an absolutely terrible response from T3, and hockeyfan just sort of lets it slide by. this doesn't

look

like someone who has T3 as potential scum.

Spoiler:

tl;dr:

James
Cows
---
Hockey
VFP
T3
---
Grandpa
Looker
The Bulge

That's where I'm at rn.

Fwiw I didnt think gpas reaction felt that unnatural but a gpa vote is smth I can get behind. Idk if you didnt quite see cows's soft defending of VFP in the last few posts(479,503) Partially 51. So yea I do think cows hasn't necessarily hard defended VFP but certainly discredited the VFP push(that both me and Gpa made). It has indeed died down, and idk if thats cuz of Gpa's inactivity but just a thing to point out.

You're putting too much stock into meta in your T3 read imo. Like this game specifically sure he has done smth, but any other person would be called scum by the way hes playing.

Also can u explain to me how Bulge "not looking anywhere else" is scum? This game has had like 10 replacements so i really dont think thats an issue.

I do like where u've put James tho so no complaints there.

This entire readslist/reads is null/TL for me atm since they are trying to explain their thought process behind them

i bolded inside this reply to clasko for emphasis - he says a lot to chop down clasko's read on T3, saying he's put too much stock into meta, but, again, has hockey actually contributed meaningfully to pressure on T3 in any way? the answer is no. he's more interested in criticizing other people's reads of t3 than doing anything about him himself.

Spoiler:

T3, what are u doing. You are attempting to read someone based off of meta alone. Why not do this wiith some of the other game? Why is LLD an exception?

so, again, a very soft question here, just asking T3 why he's trying to meta-read LLD. T3 gives an answer in 707, but hockey doesn't actually seem to care about it or follow up at all.

I am a T3 meta expert.
T3 is scum!

omg VFP u gonna talk about anything other than t3??

Also regarding this whole VFP/T3 thing thats happneing rn, I think we should shift away a little from it since atm 80% of the players think one of them is scum so if they're both town, uhh we're kinda fucked

left unspoiled, because this is a super scummy quote, imo. hockey is trying to deflect from the scumreads on t3 again here, despite saying his posts were scummy, for some reason he wants to "shift away from it" because...it would be bad if both were eliminated and flipped town? the thinking here makes no sense especially given then he wasn't strongly townreading both players.

nvm I think I have to vote one of t3/vfp now that we're close to deadline. I havent got a good read on the ppl that've replaced in, and everyone else hasnt done anythign scummy. i could vote gpa, but I think condemming one of T3/Vfp gets us some info.

Out of the 2, I think VFP is more scummy for only tunneling on T3 basically this entire game

VOTE: VFP

of course, in spite of what he just said above, he decides to vote VFP instead of T3, despite seemingly suggesting several times he finds T3 scummy. instead he's voting the guy who was most strongly pushing T3. A vote that just...doesn't make sense if you believe T3 had a decent chance of being scum, which he did. it also reads like more partner defense, attacking someone for focusing on only one slot, when that slot just happens to be outed as scum this game.

Spoiler:

hockey there's something that i don't know and you do and i keep seeing reasoning like VFP is tunnelling someone for most of the game, or VFP didn't no lim D1, so i'm just gonna assume that you just want a policy at this point

i think T3 having more scum equity is very apparent

FTR, at 1 point in a time, I didnt want to condemm any of these but since we're so close to deadline, I think we just condemm in those 2. I am also down to pivot to T3 if I have to

Regarding this whole T3 whole crumb thing, the actual crumb isnt scummy but SOLELY using that to towncase yourself is scummy. T3 has been like "oh look i fake breadcrumbed doctor, im town". James not budging and continuing to push T3 which gives me more reason to TR james

I think there's some chance, we'll end up on a 4 TF 4 VFP and 1 other vote and get a no elim.

if absolutely needed i'll swap to VFP to avoid a no lim. i'll be here until deadline

T3 is much less than scummier than VFP imo and u should do that swap rn

wait actually i take that back, not "much less" but, i sr VFP a lil more

he wants to seem like he's open to other options here, but he's not actually moving his vote to T3, in spite of suddenly agreeing that his behavior around claiming is scummy. again, remember, he's voting VFP here

for tunneling T3

. it makes no sense whatsoever.

[petapan]

What makes T3 on your radar as scum right now?

he has not done anythign towny. Also fwiw, the whole T3/VFP thing is only something i am going to pay attention on d1 most likely. I said in 719 that i think town should shift away from it a bit but since no one budged, i got back on it as we got closer to deadline. Stop assuming that I am going to sus ONLY these 2 the whole gmae

now, suddenly, the only reason he can give for T3-scum is "has not done anything towny"? and that's somehow one of the main elimination targets hockey is ok with voting?

okay we have 1 hour til deadline, can the ppl who are voting james vote one of vfp/t3(preferably VFP) cuz that gives us alot more info @clasko, @LLD

the classic scum move: fos your buddy, but push on a townie.

Here are just some thoughts for me at start of d2

Grandpa- Honestly dont know how to read this slot. They have super towny logs(428,453,620)(after the tunnel on me but even then that was sorta town but I think this is something they can pull off as mafia so im paranoid of putting them as my top town atm

VFP- once VFP actually started making content, he was pre town. I am pretty hesitant to TR them since their push was *me* and I didnt really like it. This is ofc bias since it was against me, but yea i can put this slot in null/weak town

T3- still have no clue what this guy is doing but I think hes scum(mainly gut). I still think theres 1 scum between T3/VFP and we should have limmed one of them yday

Clakso- Town

LLD- Maybe I was town reading them just cuz they talked confidently, idk

Looker- Have no read

Lets pressure Looker

VOTE: Looker

now, the reads list here at the start of day 2 feels like a glaring red flag - Hockey apparently scumreads T3, but rather voting him, he votes

Looker

, who he had "no read" on. That makes absolutely no sense from a town perspective. even if someone is lurky and not contributing much, there are other ways to pressure them than with a vote, and here it just looks like he wants an excuse to not actually vote T3 still despite professing to scumread him.

Clasko - Conftown
Grandpa - Townread

Everyone else: everyone else

VFP's switch at the end of yesterday I is towny.

Ffs, why do I actually like this post from T3. is t3 actually town? What a world.

i mean, like...there's no reason he should "like" this post and i have no idea why he would.

Looker and T3(This slot has become townier but still within my top 2 scum)

and yet he knows he's painted himself into it, he can't actually not scumread T3, he just has to make up excuses about how he "seems townier" to keep him alive. the whole thing looks extremely partnery in my view.

[petapan]

i'd look at it from T3's end because i think that's also bad but i have noticed i have stayed up until 2:30 AM writing all this junk and i need to actually get some sleep

[Clasko]

Ugh I said I wasn't gonna do walls...

Clasko, as confirmed town, now would be a great time for you to bounce ideas off me since you are gonna be 6 feet under tomorrow.

For the record, LLD, I would also choose Hockey over VFP-slot as the D3 elim. I can't see VFP/T3 team both pivoting onto claimed-VT James (who was townread by some - myself, hockey, cows, there may have been others) EoD, after VFP pushes for T3 for the majority of D1 (albeit a half-baked push with not much substance).

Towards beginning of D2, I was considering one of Grandpa/Looker as the team when I saw my result on T3, and had Hockey as 4th most likely partner of the 5, but that could have been my bias coming into play since I sort of townread them towards EoD1. I think LLD & peta make compelling arguments about Hockey voting VFP whilst keeping their FoS on T3 without actually pushing them. Looking back at Hockey's D1 ISO, I'm starting to believe it even more.

T3/Looker is a more scary combination because I can't

really

make a case for them being partners at all with the information provided.

Grandpa I'm less confident on, but I'm coming around to the idea that Grandpa maybe just busses T3 here instead of hard-defending them towards EoD, and continued to do so until I outed the result (926) - obviously scum!GPA has incentive to defend T3 since two co-ordinated mafia members have a more influence over a bunch of townies trying to figure things out for themselves, but I can't help but feel Grandpa bussing T3 would be the ideal strat and he didn't do that. I read individual scumminess from Grandpa at EoD for being absent/disengaged, and not choosing one of the two leading wagon at EoD and instead sticking to Looker despite them obviously never being the D1 elim, but they've picked up the pace D2.

As for LLD, I'm somewhat confident in her not being the partner - I agree with peta that her posts towards T3 don't look like scum theatre and she's done proactive things for town (admittedly they claim to do this as either align but it feels very helpful in the context of this game), and going back to Bulge for a moment, they were quick to townread T3 in a game where scum don't want to be associated with each other, and I don't think Bulge TR's a scum teammate for a reason based on 'gut' that will be most likely met with adversity and unwanted attention due to how people usually react to T3's play.

Take these with a pinch of salt because my experience playing mafia is sorely lacking, and recently skimming peta's posts may have influenced my own reads of people.

Here is a question: why does T3 shoot Cows?

IMO (with benefit of hindsight) he was a loud town voice who was building a case for T3 scum, in a game with three, not-fully-established-into-the-game, replace-ins (in me, yourself & looker). I doubt it was PR-hunting anyway. I'll probably re-ISO cows to see if my above opinions change as we're heading towards EoD2 somewhat quickly.

I would be looking at this order for D3 elim if I were there:

Hockey > Looker>Grandpa > LLD>peta

I knew she should have roleblocked Clasko.

Nice appeal to my paranoia there. D:

[Clasko]

Also, yeah, welcome to the game petapan!

[Looker]

T3 isn't voting HockeyFan... he's voting himself...

fixed, thanks! ~f

[petapan]

Also, yeah, welcome to the game petapan!

thanks, nice to meet you

[petapan]

Spoiler:

Hello everyone!
Hello random mafia.gg people!
Hello to my scumpartner fferry!

Hi T3! Can you post more than 8 times this game, Thanks!

can't be talking about james's alignment too soon, we might find something wacky

What does this even mean

cow is town.

T3, is this gonna be another game where u give reads without much explanation and never give the explanation when asked?

my 2 cents on james (sorry grandpa), i was getting somewhat awkward/forced vibes from his early posting before the claim. my initial reaction to 40 was that i can see scum motivation behind it, specifically the "if I redact it later[...] feel free to hammer me" bit, but aside from it just being a particularly distracting shitpost, i cant find a reason for town to post this seriously. with 104 tho i'm thinking it could be townfuckery that's drawing my suspicion. i stand by the forced feel i was getting early on, but call him a light scumlean for me for now.

I really like this from Bulge, now idk if hes town just yet, but I do like this

Maaaaaaybe!
Maybe not.

Specifically why I think cows is town is because his thought is too complex for a fresh newb straight from mafia.gg.

I disagree but eh its fine, at least this time the TR is justified from u so maybe you are actually town this game

I was town that game

so to start off, you have these early interactions between T3 and hockey, they're kind of playful, not much substance to them, although it's dangerous to read too much ito this sort of thing, some people just can't resist doing awkward little early game dances with their scumbuddies. i'm mainly quoting this here to provide context, though.

VOTE: HockeyFan

after that, he doesn't really mention hockeyfan at all until he drops this naked vote on him. from context, it's not really clear why he was voting hockeyfan here, he never explains it or pushes it all, and later he just hops off to vote VFP in 465. very little actual comment on hockeyfan here.

Spoiler:

i also do agree its a bad post

but im not responding to it anymore unless u rlly want me to, since everything is just easily either taken out of context / not thought about properly.

i realize if i dont respond then i get ur true thoughts on other ppl, than you just continuing to blindly tunnel me for no reason.

Alright, thats fine. So based on the whole interaction I had with GPA, i think Im confident in switching cows and Gpa in my reads list. I think cows is a bit scum here, because hes refusing to give AI content for the past while. He gave some reads but has shyed away alot from giving an explanation

I don't see how refusing to give AI content is a scumtell.

this is another post, it's just a flat disagreement with something hockeyfan said, and nothing more. he's not really attacking hockeyfan over it, but also isn't really trying to convince hockeyfan of anything. it's just

there

.

Spoiler:

SCUM VFP likes to pocket me and then flip on it later game.

lol why tf are you using the same exact thing as what i do....

LOL

i pointed this out in early day 1 intereaction by saying thew same exact thing t3

I didn't see it

maybe because of the 60 line walls

T3 why do u TR cows

Honestly just vibes and an earlier towny post.

VOTE: HockeyFan

cows push is a joke. Speaking of which, how much is the fruit gummy?

then, later, we get this. hollow response to a question by hockeyfan, another vote, with the only justification being "cows push is a joke". it's not a serious vote. he isn't explaining it in a way that would be convincing to, well, anyone.

VOTE: lld
This feels similar to Yggdrasil when LLD was scum in the sense that she's trying to control the game. I disagree with her James read and she's trying to pocket hockey.

I always try and control the game regardless of alignment.

By the way, for the person who was talking about NAI things: This is an example of the proper time to use NAI. When someone is describing a playstyle uniformity.

I'm sure there's some minor differences in how I approach my game control between town and scum but I am also a player who actively changes her meta game to game on purpose so, it's a bit hard to describe I think.

Regardless, this is the proper use for NAI. Controlling a game is not an action done more frequently as scum than town.

Also, I'd call into question how exactly I'm controlling the game when I have yet to place a vote, and am currently catching up. In what way am I controlling a game when I'm not even pushing a wagon yet?

Can you please explain to me? I need to determine your sincerity in making this argument to read you.

I also don't understand how you could have possibly got a read on Hockey from those first few pages.

UNVOTE: lld
I'll look at your meta.

this part, in particular, is a red flag for me - him specifically choosing to nitpick LLD's townread on hockeyfan suggests he knows the read is wrong but is using it to attack her rather than pressure hockeyfan at all. this is a certain bad tendency a lot of people have as scum, when their partner is getting townread they'll express some doubt of the read to distance, thinking it'll make them look good.

now, i admittedly don't have the context for this, but at that point in time, my impression was hockeyfan was fairly townread. so what does T3-scum gain from expressing suspicion on a popular townread? i very much doubt he was trying to "widen the POE", as people sometimes say. there were easier targets for him to push, i feel like he would know his chances of getting hockey eliminated were low. and that's why this sort of thing is obvious distancing if you have enough experience to spot it - he'd be too afraid to question the townreads on a player who's actually town, because then he might get blowback for it. i see this kind of thing all the time, it's a major pet peeve of mine because IMO it's just sloppy play.

T3, what are u doing. You are attempting to read someone based off of meta alone. Why not do this wiith some of the other game? Why is LLD an exception?

1. That's wrong.
2. This is a newbie.
3. LLD has a lot of meta I can look at.

I only flail as scum
Looker doesn't exist.
VFP is a consensus scumread.
LLD is kind of weirdly null.
cows is probably town.

hockey scum.

Grandpa and James I will not disclose.

we already know t3 is scum, of course, but the fact that he claims to be scumreading hockey but responds in such a safe way feels notable - it doesn't look like he's actually feeling pressured by hockey here. no concern, no worry that the questions he's asking might result in a scumread.

Are you trying to chain up mis lims?

This was also my thought process, if you're town then it points to Hockey setting up mislims.

again, a very weak attack on hockeyfan here - there's nothing to this read, just the lightest of suspicion at a time when he knows hockey can't get wagoned.

Clasko - Conftown
Grandpa - Townread

Everyone else: everyone else

VFP's switch at the end of yesterday I is towny.

Ffs, why do I actually like this post from T3. is t3 actually town? What a world.

What can I say?

My PoE is Looker, you, and maybe LLD?
But because you're pushing looker you're probably not aligned.

Clasko - Conftown
Grandpa - Townread

Everyone else: everyone else

VFP's switch at the end of yesterday I is towny.

Ffs, why do I actually like this post from T3. is t3 actually town? What a world.

What can I say?

My PoE is Looker, you, and maybe LLD?
But because you're pushing looker you're probably not aligned.

I like it but I feel like we're both wrong on Tr'ing Gpa, but i am confident tring gpa for d2. so yeah we can pre much just lim Looker rn unless he becomes towny

To me, LLD immediately townreading you feels like pocketing. Then again, it was really obvious so it might be scumbag tring scumbag?

Honestly I just didn't think of interactions around Hockey.

fast forward to today and we have this final set of interactions. i don't have a ton to say here, it looks teamed to me but i'm in pretty deep in my tunnel at this point, his responses to hockeyfan are an awkward "oh yeah you're in my POE" but also "LLD looked like she was pocketing you" which is pretty nonsensical. consistent pattern though, T3 calls hockeyfan scummy a bunch but never seriously attempts to get him eliminated. i think that, coupled with what i assume was the threadstate - not enough people seriously scumreading hockey for him to be a viable elimination - strongly points to this being distancing by T3. (if i'm wrong and more people were scumreading hockey, disregard that, but i still think this is significantly more likely to be a teammate of T3 than anyone else)

[petapan]

so that's about it from me in terms of analyzing the interactions and people's reads around T3. i can possibly do some speculation as to why cows was the NK, and pull meta on T3 to back up how he acts around partners, but other than that i don't feel like i have a

ton

to contribute. i could give the game a full read, but it doesn't feel super necessary at this point because hockey just looks super obviously like T3's partner


other than that, i'm basically treating my stint in this game as a teaching role, so if any of the newbies have questions about my process here or any theory stuff, feel free to ask me anything

[HockeyFan]

It doesnt change anything. LLD asked me who are the top 2 indivually scummy people(ppl i want to lim today). This does not mean they are PAIRED. Im just saying, T3 and Looker are my mafia reads and people and I want to lim(now that t3 is outed as mafia I MAY re-eval on looker, but no guarantees)

ok so now who u think t3 is mafia wit then ???

Okay, so the only person I dont think T3 is paired with is VFP(peta in this case). This leaves Gpa/LLD/Looker. Out of these 3, Grandpa IS the towniest right now which means through POE, t3's partner is one of LLD/Looker

Right, so your logic is that scum T3 spent all yesterday discrediting me about Meta, then shoots cows, someone I called scum and was possibly in line to Eliminate via votes, then comes into today calling me into question AGAIN

and then I as his partner call for a mass claim and organize it to get to this result

So if I was scum with T3 I would need to have

agreed to a kill on a target that I was okay to eliminate by vote and would probabyl have succeeded at doing
agreed to T3 doing a sabotage on my credibility as I replaced in and lessening my possible control over the game
and agreed to T3 doing it again today, only to call for a massclaim that increased our win percent by quite a bit?

I'd love for you to explain how T3 and I can be scum together.

That's how POE works, no? I dont think VFP's slot is paired with T3 which once again leaves You/Grandpa/Looker. So from my pov, ONE of you 3 is paired with t3. I mentioned that i think Gpa is the towniest here sooo, for me the people paired with t3 are you/looker

[HockeyFan]

so now that i've covered all that ground, i can get into the meat of why i think it's hockeyfan. luckily, his ISO is full of mentions of T3, and i think they look quite bad for him:

Spoiler:

cow is town.

T3, is this gonna be another game where u give reads without much explanation and never give the explanation when asked?

Specifically why I think cows is town is because his thought is too complex for a fresh newb straight from mafia.gg.

I disagree but eh its fine, at least this time the TR is justified from u so maybe you are actually town this game

first real meaningful interaction here, hockey pressures T3 for not explaining his read, and T3 gives a very weak explanation of cows' thoughts being "too complex". somehow this mediocre explanation was enough to satisfy hockeyfan and make him suggest T3 is town. this is the kind of thing i find partnery - scum want to interact and look like they're putting pressure on each other, but they don't want to actually go too hard and get their partner eliminated, so they'll ask their teammates questions to seem curious, but not really care about the answers.

Spoiler:

Yea... I said town has 0 reason to say it but if u read 173, i explained in the first half of it, scum has no reason to do it either

so does that mean u null read james?

so wait...

we literally came to the same conclusion but with a different approach sorta (me, u and bulge)

and if im understanding this correctly... u liked bulge's response because u understand their logic vs mine?

Yes, which is why i am tring bulge

im so confused

omfg what are you confused about. To go over once again everything I've said. James post 40 is NAI, your reading of it was Scum leaning and Bulges analysis of it was Town. There? Also @cows, why do u SR t3

How do you roll scum so often, T3?

Hey VFP, u seem to be SR'ing t3 here, any particular reason?

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Okay so since this is a "semi-serious" vote, u better be ACTUALLY pushing it smfh. Dont just leave your vote there as a chance to bw/sheep others. Also how many votes is that on t3 rn? 3? like wtf is going on lmao

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

How do you roll scum so often, T3?

Hey VFP, u seem to be SR'ing t3 here, any particular reason?

VFP isnt me but i have a post in drafts that explains it, let me try and finish it up in the coming hours

cleaning up prior thoughts and then going to bed
about as ordered as a d1 rainbow can be

beesechurger (wasnt mentioned before but their opening post is more genuine-informative than scum can ever be)
james
hockey
rock
--townreads stop here
bulge
VFP is true null
grandpa
t3

if you need clarification ask

i have it..........

pot deserves stirring. VOTE: GrandpaMo

cows seems to be pushing/Sr'ing T3 more tho

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

cows is pushing me lol and puts me scum wit t3 lol

and its weird that i scum read vfp

wait

my vote pool is literally vfp, t3, and rocky

What is this vote pool lol

cows seems to be pushing/Sr'ing T3 more tho

they are voting me lol ...

didnt know voting someone is "pushing" them. In fact cows even labelled the vote as "stirring" the pot. I am just gonna drop this convo as its irrelevant lol. why do u care who cows is pushing more.

My first Read List

Town:

Bulge

Null:
T3
Cows
James

Weak Scum:

Gpa
VFP

Its NAI cuz I dont think scum posts smth like that early into the game. Likewise, theres no reason for any VT to claim their role d1 so its not something town should do, so imo its NAI

...how is this not the same thing as 'tstbs' tho? you're saying you don't think scum would post something anti-town so early, which is the exact same thought process as tstbs.

because its full null, I also think town has 0 reason to do this. This is different than tstbs, because if u think they're "tstsbs" you SR them in some sort already which I didnt do

'tstbs' implies a townread.

Once again, I never said "tstbs"

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Okay so since this is a "semi-serious" vote, u better be ACTUALLY pushing it smfh. Dont just leave your vote there as a chance to bw/sheep others. Also how many votes is that on t3 rn? 3? like wtf is going on lmao

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

I dont understand what the big deal here is? what is so shocking to you about a wagon of 3?

That early into the game is shocking especally when T3 hadnt done anything scummy in eyes

then, when T3 starts getting some early scumreads, hockeyfan starts defending him, questioning why t3 is getting voted, saying he hasn't done anything scummy. it very much looks like he's trying to derail the wagon on t3 here.

Spoiler:

i also do agree its a bad post

but im not responding to it anymore unless u rlly want me to, since everything is just easily either taken out of context / not thought about properly.

i realize if i dont respond then i get ur true thoughts on other ppl, than you just continuing to blindly tunnel me for no reason.

Alright, thats fine. So based on the whole interaction I had with GPA, i think Im confident in switching cows and Gpa in my reads list. I think cows is a bit scum here, because hes refusing to give AI content for the past while. He gave some reads but has shyed away alot from giving an explanation

Wait until you realise how much or little content T3 has provided.

After reading T3's ISO, I do agree with this statement so yea I might like James as town for now

most of my posts won't be this long. essays suck!

i think it's a given that T3's game regardless of alignment will be filled with one liners and things that they won't expand on unless asked repeatedly. because of this i disagree with scumreading them for that only (i think some people are,), and it'll be for slightly different reasons

tonally, i think their earlygame looks really odd and something that i'd usually see from someone that doesn't know how to generate the information they need to plow through earlygame. they're just floating by and chucking a few names out, including the mod(?) pet peeve is people doing that [shoutout to james too,] since it's openly denying people information about yourself and who you are willing to align with, which means you likely have something to hide

Hello everyone!
Hello random mafia.gg people!
Hello to my scumpartner fferry!

I admit it I'm Jester.
I'm kind of tired rn I'll do stuff tomorrow or llater.

when given the chance to align with people, they churn out stuff like this. it's hard to use stuff like this because it's so ambiguous, which I don't like from anybody

unless a new topic comes up i will talk about the claim for 9 more days

wtf
Someone claimed?
Rollin gtown in newbie games burns the soul.

does this count as LAMIST? you just called yourself a jester, dont make it a point to call out that you're town

i think one point for them is the townread on me. it's built on odd reasoning, but it's reasoning that feels like it comes from a personal perspective, possibly from their own experiences when they were a newb that they're applying. i think scum probably doesn't have an incentive to townread me on such shaky grounds, even if it was weak. i asked bulge about the townread and they didn't care about it, then i asked hockey to elaborate on a comment about it and they said they liked it but disagreed? it might be something that you guys don't care about that much but it's probably the first actually AI thing that's come from them

Specifically why I think cows is town is because his thought is too complex for a fresh newb straight from mafia.gg.

This has entered a whole new dimension of misinterpretation.

this was a comment when hockey V grandpamo was happening. understands that it's a misinterpretation but refuses to take any sort of sides. i guess it's pretty funny cause i thought the same thing, so post might be townier than i think

I don't see how refusing to give AI content is a scumtell.

towniest post award (not joking)

a ton of T3's reads are based on meta and they admit this, so i will not comment without the appropriate reading material (wink wink)
i think their unvote on James is towny,

UNVOTE: James
This is a playstyle difference. I put a lot of stock in meta, you don't care about it so you do weird stuff.

the veiled extra information they have on James i don't mind that much but ill pretend that i have it so I can still call James town
tl;dr T3 looks bad earlygame but has lightened up with towny posts

Do u really think T3's latter posts are "town" enough to make up for the scummier posts above? Cuz I dont think so. They're not *that* town to me. Sure they may not be scummy, but defintely not enough to cancel out his scum logs at the beginning of the game so im curious why u think that?

Do u really think T3's latter posts are "town" enough to make up for the scummier posts above? Cuz I dont think so. They're not *that* town to me. Sure they may not be scummy, but defintely not enough to cancel out his scum logs at the beginning of the game so im curious why u think that?

seems rather PRESUMPTUOUS that you think that i think T3's later logs excuse his earlier posts

your tldr of that post was litreally "T3 looks bad earlygame but has lightened up with towny posts"

but they do, because the beginning logs only show an unwillingness to contribute. you seem to think that the logs i showed later are only moderately town, but know that T3's beginning logs are only moderately scummy and so your scumlean doesn't make too much sense, unless you put a lot of weight into scum logs (do you?)

You're just making up stuff now. Never said they were only moderately scummy, but u are right that I do put some weight into scum logs

T3 probably just hates the random voting stage or something

but, suddenly this all shifts, he decides he agrees with james's reasons for scumreading T3 and decides to townread him, and is suddenly attacking cows for

his

defense of t3. this is especially puzzling because suddenly despite claiming t3 hadn't been scummy earlier, suddenly hockeyfan is saying his early posts were scum logs. now, people can change their mind after a reread, of course. but it's kind of surprising to me that he got such a drastically different impression from a reread.

notably, in spite of his apparent agreement with james here, he doesn't really contribute to pressure on t3. instead, we get this exchange:

Spoiler:

SCUM VFP likes to pocket me and then flip on it later game.

lol why tf are you using the same exact thing as what i do....

LOL

i pointed this out in early day 1 intereaction by saying thew same exact thing t3

I didn't see it

maybe because of the 60 line walls

T3 why do u TR cows

Honestly just vibes and an earlier towny post.

Intresting.


Also wtf im still voting Grandpa?
UNVOTE:

that...is an absolutely terrible response from T3, and hockeyfan just sort of lets it slide by. this doesn't

look

like someone who has T3 as potential scum.

Spoiler:

tl;dr:

James
Cows
---
Hockey
VFP
T3
---
Grandpa
Looker
The Bulge

That's where I'm at rn.

Fwiw I didnt think gpas reaction felt that unnatural but a gpa vote is smth I can get behind. Idk if you didnt quite see cows's soft defending of VFP in the last few posts(479,503) Partially 51. So yea I do think cows hasn't necessarily hard defended VFP but certainly discredited the VFP push(that both me and Gpa made). It has indeed died down, and idk if thats cuz of Gpa's inactivity but just a thing to point out.

You're putting too much stock into meta in your T3 read imo. Like this game specifically sure he has done smth, but any other person would be called scum by the way hes playing.

Also can u explain to me how Bulge "not looking anywhere else" is scum? This game has had like 10 replacements so i really dont think thats an issue.

I do like where u've put James tho so no complaints there.

This entire readslist/reads is null/TL for me atm since they are trying to explain their thought process behind them

i bolded inside this reply to clasko for emphasis - he says a lot to chop down clasko's read on T3, saying he's put too much stock into meta, but, again, has hockey actually contributed meaningfully to pressure on T3 in any way? the answer is no. he's more interested in criticizing other people's reads of t3 than doing anything about him himself.

Spoiler:

T3, what are u doing. You are attempting to read someone based off of meta alone. Why not do this wiith some of the other game? Why is LLD an exception?

so, again, a very soft question here, just asking T3 why he's trying to meta-read LLD. T3 gives an answer in 707, but hockey doesn't actually seem to care about it or follow up at all.

I am a T3 meta expert.
T3 is scum!

omg VFP u gonna talk about anything other than t3??

Also regarding this whole VFP/T3 thing thats happneing rn, I think we should shift away a little from it since atm 80% of the players think one of them is scum so if they're both town, uhh we're kinda fucked

left unspoiled, because this is a super scummy quote, imo. hockey is trying to deflect from the scumreads on t3 again here, despite saying his posts were scummy, for some reason he wants to "shift away from it" because...it would be bad if both were eliminated and flipped town? the thinking here makes no sense especially given then he wasn't strongly townreading both players.

nvm I think I have to vote one of t3/vfp now that we're close to deadline. I havent got a good read on the ppl that've replaced in, and everyone else hasnt done anythign scummy. i could vote gpa, but I think condemming one of T3/Vfp gets us some info.

Out of the 2, I think VFP is more scummy for only tunneling on T3 basically this entire game

VOTE: VFP

of course, in spite of what he just said above, he decides to vote VFP instead of T3, despite seemingly suggesting several times he finds T3 scummy. instead he's voting the guy who was most strongly pushing T3. A vote that just...doesn't make sense if you believe T3 had a decent chance of being scum, which he did. it also reads like more partner defense, attacking someone for focusing on only one slot, when that slot just happens to be outed as scum this game.

Spoiler:

hockey there's something that i don't know and you do and i keep seeing reasoning like VFP is tunnelling someone for most of the game, or VFP didn't no lim D1, so i'm just gonna assume that you just want a policy at this point

i think T3 having more scum equity is very apparent

FTR, at 1 point in a time, I didnt want to condemm any of these but since we're so close to deadline, I think we just condemm in those 2. I am also down to pivot to T3 if I have to

Regarding this whole T3 whole crumb thing, the actual crumb isnt scummy but SOLELY using that to towncase yourself is scummy. T3 has been like "oh look i fake breadcrumbed doctor, im town". James not budging and continuing to push T3 which gives me more reason to TR james

I think there's some chance, we'll end up on a 4 TF 4 VFP and 1 other vote and get a no elim.

if absolutely needed i'll swap to VFP to avoid a no lim. i'll be here until deadline

T3 is much less than scummier than VFP imo and u should do that swap rn

wait actually i take that back, not "much less" but, i sr VFP a lil more

he wants to seem like he's open to other options here, but he's not actually moving his vote to T3, in spite of suddenly agreeing that his behavior around claiming is scummy. again, remember, he's voting VFP here

for tunneling T3

. it makes no sense whatsoever.

1. "but, suddenly this all shifts, he decides he agrees with james's reasons for scumreading T3 and decides to townread him,"

I think I espeically liked this point from James because it was the first real read someone had on T3. James could have easilly placed a random vote on T3 there but he didnt, and actually gave semi-decent reasoning

2. "attacking cows for his defense of t3"

It felt very unnatrual and cows was one of the people who wanted to push T3 earlier in the day, so that sudden switch seemed odd to me

3. "for some reason he wants to "shift away from it"

. We had time in the day to look at other people, and its bad for town to get tunneld too much on certain people. I aslo voted one of T3/VFP in post 742(admittely i did choose wrong) because we were getting close to deadline and at that point, I dont think we were going to be able to vote anyone else

4.the only reason he can give for T3-scum is "has not done anything towny"?.

I didnt have a scum case on anyone else at that time. So imo this was fine, because for the most of the other people I could find something that they did that was towny but for T3, i just couldnt..

5. " fos your buddy, but push on a townie."

Yea sure, you can sus me for this, but I maintained the fact that I think one of t3/vfp are scum, So if VFP claimed PR or smth I would have voted T3

6. "there's no reason he should "like" this post".

There was a bit of bias there since I pretty much had the exact thouhgts of that post

7. "he votes Looker, who he had "no read" on".

I wanted to find one of t3's (possible) partners so I decided to pressure Looker to see what their reaction was, and tbh it hasnt been great

I know i didnt respond to everything in this wallpost, but I responded to things that caught my eye

[HockeyFan]

Wait, sorry i thought quoted both posts. These are answers to points in both 1026/1027

[GrandpaMo]

Spoiler:

Hello everyone!
Hello random mafia.gg people!
Hello to my scumpartner fferry!

fuck u rolled scum like u did in 2068 didnt u

Too Town To Be Town?

T3 giv me ur reads rn

James is probably town but I can't say why.
Bulge is a tr. I'll metadive him at some point becauseI'm slightly paranoid.
You're vibes towny.
Everyone else I forgot about or is null.

ffs.

u did the same shit in ur scum game

am i gonna get pocketed

WAIT

"I know your allignment and I know yours"

LOL rlly used that to say i scumslipped in our game, and then get limmed the next day lmao

Should we lim T3 here?

its either that, you, or rocky.

rocky is worse than t3 idk why cows is townreading them lol

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Okay so since this is a "semi-serious" vote, u better be ACTUALLY pushing it smfh. Dont just leave your vote there as a chance to bw/sheep others. Also how many votes is that on t3 rn? 3? like wtf is going on lmao

t3 has like 1 vote from rvs what

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

cows is pushing me lol and puts me scum wit t3 lol

and its weird that i scum read vfp

wait

my vote pool is literally vfp, t3, and rocky

Its NAI cuz I dont think scum posts smth like that early into the game. Likewise, theres no reason for any VT to claim their role d1 so its not something town should do, so imo its NAI

...how is this not the same thing as 'tstbs' tho? you're saying you don't think scum would post something anti-town so early, which is the exact same thought process as tstbs.

because its full null, I also think town has 0 reason to do this. This is different than tstbs, because if u think they're "tstsbs" you SR them in some sort already which I didnt do

'tstbs' implies a townread.

Once again, I never said "tstbs"

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Okay so since this is a "semi-serious" vote, u better be ACTUALLY pushing it smfh. Dont just leave your vote there as a chance to bw/sheep others. Also how many votes is that on t3 rn? 3? like wtf is going on lmao

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

I dont understand what the big deal here is? what is so shocking to you about a wagon of 3?

That early into the game is shocking especally when T3 hadnt done anything scummy in eyes

I think I scumread T3 based on meta.

I have bias because everytime T3 calls me town out of the blue with no reasoning, they end up flipping scum. So anytime, I hear those words coming out the mouth -- I get paranio. I usually don't end up voting them until probably day 2.

Bringing back to the point, you said earlier that you didn't why Rocky was scum. I will explain why I think rocky is scum.

They have 15 posts which is fine, but till post 61

I don't know if they were serious with that vote, but I will assume they were meming. They continue to meme.

They finally make a serious read in post 117 which was the WIFOMY thing James said about them claiming to be VT... which is something weird to go into especially considering it being the first genuine read.

In post 220 I actually asked for rocky for their reads (I bring this up because you claim I haven't questioned rocky but I have, rocky just had never replied because their last post is post 164)

They unvote without any reasoning.

I do want to point out that I did agree with rocky in post 164, which is something Rocky could be town for but idk if it's a strong enough reason to call them town.

I haven't voted them yet, because I am still waiting them to come back and give me an updated readlist.

I am also waiting on Beezeburger.

Grandpa. vc. Actually though...

gotcha ur town

ok i think the 2 scum lies in

vfp, rockey, beeze, and maybe t3

t3 vc*

James seriously, vc.

yea lol

ur town i think.

indeliberate mason buddy

Everything in his ISO

but you know t3 acts like this both as town and scum.

why are you driving a bw on t3 on NAI things, respectfully you seen me do the same thing in my aliensitter needed game, that was the whole reason i pushed t3 instead of bussing there

SCUM VFP likes to pocket me and then flip on it later game.

lol why tf are you using the same exact thing as what i do....

LOL

i pointed this out in early day 1 intereaction by saying thew same exact thing t3

I'm confident the 2 scum are in [T3, The Bulge, Looker].

heavy disagree, both t3 and bulge have been respectuflly townie.

mostly bulge tho, i feel like they aree playing like me, they are wanting a flip, and have had the same thoughts as me before.

ok lol this interaction makes me wanna say something...

tldr; t3 + james are both tvt, if i had to choose at least 1 scum between james is the vote.

but nah nor t3 or james are scum here. ill explain when i get back from work, i think i will have time around 10:30 pm est, oh thats like 1 hour before deadline

hmmm.

im not moving my move honestly.

i dont think scum!t3 claims vt here after crumbing doc. i do confirm that t3 was crumbing to me. and was crumbing to james as an inside joke referring to "vc" which is something i did last game we were together.

i think t3 would just claim doc, there is no reason for scum!t3 to claim vt unless using it for wifom.

james not understanding this, is very weird. i actually do now think there is scum between vfp + james if t3 flips town.

i would actually vote vfp instead of james because of something which i wont disclose yet

i will post more game analysis when i come back but i have to go!!!

t3 is town!!!!

The thing is T3, you plausibly are town here.
But it's too late in the day for me to start a fresh wagon on someone, considering I don't like any of the other wagons.

I'm going to stop the current spam with two last questions, there's no chance T3 will answer either really.

Why would doctor crumb so obviously?

Everybody and their grandmother would realise it's fake.

Secondly what is stopping you from playing differently on purpose, you in your eyes always do X as town, what's stopping you, as Scum, from doing X then claiming you're town?

VFP crumbs waaaaay better than you, T3
i have a few more thoughts but let me switch to PC i just woke up

Regarding this whole T3 whole crumb thing, the actual crumb isnt scummy but SOLELY using that to towncase yourself is scummy. T3 has been like "oh look i fake breadcrumbed doctor, im town". James not budging and continuing to push T3 which gives me more reason to TR james

also look at this hostile passive aggressive pushing from 4 of the players against t3. lol

okay, so, this is a massive unsorted quotedump from grandpamo about T3. while the progression here on a surface level is maybe not the best - i think this is probably not the approach grandpamo takes with a teammate, distancing early and pressuring him only to pull a full reversal and go into full-out defense when t3 was potentially a candidate for elimination. most players tend to take the path of least resistance and bus when their teammate is in danger. i also think, in more general terms, the way grandpamo is responding to t3 here looks authentic, for the most part. stuff like 269 and 573 feels tonally good, i lean toward that stuff being genuine.

i think 811 here though is a strong indicator of grandpa-town, though. the fact that t3 crumbed doctor specifically to grandpamo was very likely an attempt to pocket him and get him to stop scumreading t3. while it's super weird that grandpa did not somehow find him claiming vt instead scummy, i just don't think this is an interaction that happens between partners here. it's too specific and odd, and while that kind of thing can be faked, i find it incredibly unlikely they would try to do so in a newbie game, because it is

very unlikely

most players in the game would read into that sort of thing and see it as unaligned. i think it's the simpler answer: T3 didn't want grandpa pushing him, but didn't want to push back, so he fake-crumbed to try to escape the pressure and grandpa got pocketed by it.

omfg thank u . i forgot had this whole parania regarding t3 -- honestly that just stemmed from me saying that t3 was doing the same exact shit on how they read me and the people around me in the last scum game with them -- then they do the PR fake claim BS which made me instantly turn that scumread into a townread because they did that same thing in our last TOWN game with them, i think it was just a bar of t3 pocketing me. who knows, t3 played well regardless lol

[T3]

Ugh I said I wasn't gonna do walls...

Clasko, as confirmed town, now would be a great time for you to bounce ideas off me since you are gonna be 6 feet under tomorrow.

For the record, LLD, I would also choose Hockey over VFP-slot as the D3 elim. I can't see VFP/T3 team both pivoting onto claimed-VT James (who was townread by some - myself, hockey, cows, there may have been others) EoD, after VFP pushes for T3 for the majority of D1 (albeit a half-baked push with not much substance).

Towards beginning of D2, I was considering one of Grandpa/Looker as the team when I saw my result on T3, and had Hockey as 4th most likely partner of the 5, but that could have been my bias coming into play since I sort of townread them towards EoD1. I think LLD & peta make compelling arguments about Hockey voting VFP whilst keeping their FoS on T3 without actually pushing them. Looking back at Hockey's D1 ISO, I'm starting to believe it even more.

T3/Looker is a more scary combination because I can't

really

make a case for them being partners at all with the information provided.

Grandpa I'm less confident on, but I'm coming around to the idea that Grandpa maybe just busses T3 here instead of hard-defending them towards EoD, and continued to do so until I outed the result (926) - obviously scum!GPA has incentive to defend T3 since two co-ordinated mafia members have a more influence over a bunch of townies trying to figure things out for themselves, but I can't help but feel Grandpa bussing T3 would be the ideal strat and he didn't do that. I read individual scumminess from Grandpa at EoD for being absent/disengaged, and not choosing one of the two leading wagon at EoD and instead sticking to Looker despite them obviously never being the D1 elim, but they've picked up the pace D2.

As for LLD, I'm somewhat confident in her not being the partner - I agree with peta that her posts towards T3 don't look like scum theatre and she's done proactive things for town (admittedly they claim to do this as either align but it feels very helpful in the context of this game), and going back to Bulge for a moment, they were quick to townread T3 in a game where scum don't want to be associated with each other, and I don't think Bulge TR's a scum teammate for a reason based on 'gut' that will be most likely met with adversity and unwanted attention due to how people usually react to T3's play.

Take these with a pinch of salt because my experience playing mafia is sorely lacking, and recently skimming peta's posts may have influenced my own reads of people.

Here is a question: why does T3 shoot Cows?

IMO (with benefit of hindsight) he was a loud town voice who was building a case for T3 scum, in a game with three, not-fully-established-into-the-game, replace-ins (in me, yourself & looker). I doubt it was PR-hunting anyway. I'll probably re-ISO cows to see if my above opinions change as we're heading towards EoD2 somewhat quickly.

I would be looking at this order for D3 elim if I were there:

Hockey > Looker>Grandpa > LLD>peta

I knew she should have roleblocked Clasko.

Nice appeal to my paranoia there. D:

The way you organized your first post felt like a pr looking for who to do the action on so I suggested we roleblock you, but my partner suggested someone else.

[Clasko]

The way you organized your first post felt like a pr looking for who to do the action on so I suggested we roleblock you, but my partner suggested someone else.

I'll have to make sure that doesn't become a tell of some kind in future...

[Clasko]

That's how POE works, no? I dont think VFP's slot is paired with T3 which once again leaves You/Grandpa/Looker. So from my pov, ONE of you 3 is paired with t3. I mentioned that i think Gpa is the towniest here sooo, for me the people paired with t3 are you/looker

If you don't believe you're the correct elim come D3, do you have a preference between the two people you're suggesting? Can you give reasons?

[Clasko]

thanks, nice to meet you

Likewise.

other than that, i'm basically treating my stint in this game as a teaching role, so if any of the newbies have questions about my process here or any theory stuff, feel free to ask me anything

I think an immediate burning question I have, and... I don't know if it's the right one to ask, but:

What should newbies do in the presence of the "meta" argument? Like, if player X accuses player Y of being scum due to meta (or if meta is part of the argument), does Player Z (newbie) need to go through Player Y's previous games? Or should they focus solely on the game they're in to determine whether Player Y is scum?
I'm of the opinion it doesn't need to be a factor for newbies until they've shared/read a significant amount of games with Player Y, which would take a longer amount of time than the game they're currently in, but I've seen it being brought up in a lot of recent newbie games, so my thoughts over meta are slightly hazy.

[Looker]

I think meta is why a lot of people create alts. Are we waiting for anything else?

[HockeyFan]

That's how POE works, no? I dont think VFP's slot is paired with T3 which once again leaves You/Grandpa/Looker. So from my pov, ONE of you 3 is paired with t3. I mentioned that i think Gpa is the towniest here sooo, for me the people paired with t3 are you/looker

If you don't believe you're the correct elim come D3, do you have a preference between the two people you're suggesting? Can you give reasons?

I want Looker on d3. Looker has ben here, yes, but he hasnt really tried to progress game, kinda filler. Im liking LLD's logs more which is why I think Looker -> LLD wins us the game.

[petapan]

I think an immediate burning question I have, and... I don't know if it's the right one to ask, but:

What should newbies do in the presence of the "meta" argument? Like, if player X accuses player Y of being scum due to meta (or if meta is part of the argument), does Player Z (newbie) need to go through Player Y's previous games? Or should they focus solely on the game they're in to determine whether Player Y is scum?
I'm of the opinion it doesn't need to be a factor for newbies until they've shared/read a significant amount of games with Player Y, which would take a longer amount of time than the game they're currently in, but I've seen it being brought up in a lot of recent newbie games, so my thoughts over meta are slightly hazy.

hmm, i'm an interesting person to ask on this because my opinion is different from most - i feel like "meta", at least the way most people on the site use it these days, is incredibly lazy and leads to bad reads. people will make statements like "player

x

sounds similar to game

A

where they were town" or "player

x

is completely different from game

B

where they were town" (you can change "town" to "scum" in both of those examples, my usage here was arbitrary), and i think these are both fallacies. a player is going to usually sound similar across games because they are

the same person

. unless they're sure there's a clear difference in their play as both alignments, that's no good. but by the same token, a person can behave differently in games for reasons entirely unrelated to their alignment, but just their mood and enthusiasm, or the strength of their reads that game. additionally, if you don't have an idea of the range of someone's scumplay, assuming they are town because they're acting different is dangerous - most people are going to try to change things up if there are several players in the game who have seen them as scum recently.

the argument becomes stronger if the player making the meta case has a strong familiarity with the person, but even then i think people will often be biased toward townreading their friends because of "meta". the thing i would post most stock is if someone is very familiar with a player and is very certain they're scum, because they're playing in a way they wouldn't as town. that type of read tends to be accurate, i think.

anyway, to actually answer your question, properly researching meta takes hours, and most non-crazy people do not have that kind of time. (unless the meta is simply "this person always acts like this", that is relatively quick to check). i think how much stock you put into a meta read in a game just has to depend on how much you trust the person who is giving it in game. in general, though, i would say your read on what is happening in your current game is more important than anything that happened in an old game.

I think meta is why a lot of people create alts. Are we waiting for anything else?

definitely true for me, lmao. i don't have a ton else to add

[T3]

I think meta is why a lot of people create alts. Are we waiting for anything else?

VOTE: looker
Go away.

[Looker]

Progress the game? This is why I say this game is subjective - I don't see how beleaguering a point with walls of text (which can be easily misinterpreted and spun to agenda like most things on this site are) is progressing the game any more than stating your sentiments concisely and directly. Not saying I hate walls of text, just saying that most of these "cases" (i.e. HockeyFan saying I haven't tried to progress the game) come down to personality and playstyle differences. You end up with two jobs as town - find the mafia and win a popularity contest.

[fferyllt]

et

[fferyllt]

allez