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[Dwlee99]

You act like that's a gotcha or something. Yes, you're not like a cartoon character always making posts that are scummy because you're scum. You tried to look more town there with the jump off and discussion, but tried to railroad it right back to Gamma after the slightest wagon on Titus forms and defended her slot multiple times. That's why I quoted the votes for Titus there, to show as soon as she got votes, you were right there to suggest someone else.

I made the mistake of thinking you couldn't be aligned with her because you vote parked her which is why I asked who she was partnered with. Vote parking doesn't make you unaligned though, it actually indicates it.

[Dwlee99]

Here are some Chaos quotes from D4

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

Okay fair enough

There isn't a strong reason to or not to when I'm clearly okay with yeeting her today.

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

Maybe you can explain it for me then. Why is Titus a good lim today?

Okay just wants to know

Nero night kill, defense of nom, pushing the "neighbors," at the beginning of the game pushing the me vs Peta TvT fight, all of the reasons Nero/Peta/Anya were pushing Titus day 1/2/3, play being uninspiring, townread on Osuka and Vax (vax may have fluctuated between null and town I think I need to check), early aligning with the "masons," there is a lot there on rereading parts of day one and two.

It's a shame that none of this was true D3 and you had to vote for Anya instead of Titus.

On a not snarky note, does Gamma not dying N3 affect your Titus read at all?

That first paragraph could cut through wood

Kyo is in 3 of those 4 pairs, and I feel like you haven't questioned her or posted anything negative about her at all. That seems really weird to me. Is Kyo your top scumread?

Trying to get me to vote Kyo because I had her in two of my pairings (which I could have if I was evil and didn't want Titus to go through but didn't.)

I'm starting to think it's just Andre / Titus or Andre / Gamma with Andre / Titus being the stronger scum pair. But that's only because I don't believe Titus didn't know it was a fake hammer. Even if that was some how true, its just not how Titus town responds.

Andres/Titus doesn't make sense given Gamma's check pool.

Agree with Titus that the lim should be Gamma today.

Rip

[Dwlee99]

3887 is especially bad, because as I alluded to it completely reads like a chainsaw. No thoughts on all the points I made, just attacking me.

[ChaosOmega]

1.) Titus was pushing both sides of the 1v1, which Nero correctly pointed out makes sense that if Peta and I are TvT for her to do that.

2.) Yes and we have been over why I didn't agree with Nero there multiple times at this point. It was scummy because it wasn't actually doing any solving (which I realized later), whereas Nero was saying that calling me scum looked planned. I still don't know think that's true.

3.) I took VFP's side but that I ended up switching wagons is not remarkable at all given many flipped town or confirmed town did the same thing. Other alive players that we don't know the alignments of also did this. Andres said Nom was town. I think t3 and STD thought VFP v Nom was TvT. DGB had the thought process of "This looks like bussing but I'm not going to vote Nom anyway" which is actually terrible. I'm don't think DotW thought Nom was scum there. You would have to kill half the player list for this if you thought it was that scum-indicative.

4.) We have been around this in circles but yes I did more than just be a vote on the wagon. I started it and begged people to unvote Anya. Unvoting Osuka there was because I was unconfident in my reads. I say at some point "just don't kill Anya today." And I said this before but if I was trying to bus for towncred I would have just buried Osuka. I would have known he would flip scum and would just hard push it through because it would give me more cred. Carefully considering his alignment is not scummy.

Voting off Anya D3 was a mistake, but I think a natural consequence of "there can be a mafia announcing voyeur" and "fake claiming neighbor when there is a PT cop looks awful."

5.) I thought Vax also said he thought the Cyrus claim was fake but maybe I misremembered.

1.) Not your initial point, that you were town because scum attacked you. And Nero being dead and town doesn't mean take his word as gospel, it also makes sense to lightly shade you at the beginning if you're Titus' partner there.

2.) nom was scum, their push was planned. Unless you think scum can have natural read progressions in not-multiball, don't know what you're saying. And also, not my point, you said that nom pushing you for a bad reason makes you town, Nero attacks nom for it and then you immediately defend nom against Nero. Don't see how this makes you look town at all.

3.) I can't even see the goalposts how far you moved them. You not thinking nom is scum is not why I scumread this interaction. This is why I put all those quotes there, to provide context. You want to state that it's AI you took VFP's side in the nom/VFP 1v1, you technically did on a cursory glance with your vote, but your actual content D1 was attacking DGB and defending Titus and nom. It is then even scummier to say how town you are because of this and distill your D1 down to being against nom. It's patently false from your ISO, and trying to misrep and say I need to go after everyone who didn't push nom is complete nonsense.

4.) We have been around this in circles, just wanted to address all the points in 1 post. The posts you made were definitely made to look like you led the wagon, but you jumped off the wagon when it was building (we have different reasons why you did this), and jumped back on with a strong case super super late. You say it pushed the wagon over the line, I say you jumped on top as it was speeding across and are taking way more credit than you deserve.

[ChaosOmega]

For 4576, if anyone not named Dwlee wants to engage me on any part of it feel free.

[Dwlee99]

1.) Okay sure she could hard shade me early if I'm her buddy but it also makes sense for her to push both sides in a TvT. But yea she did attack me super hard early and I had a sizable wagon to start the game.

2.) Scum don't have natural progressions but they also don't plan every single interaction out (or maybe some people do and I don't?)

I think nom reacted that way because Nero asked for what he got out of having me vote Rathe and he just made something up that he thought sounded convincing enough. That isn't "planning" the way I thought Nero was using it. ​

3.) I never said and don't think I implied my day one was dedicated to pushing nom. I said I took VFP's side because that is what I did. VFP said they were gladiatoring Nom and I said okay and voted Nom. It later dissipated but that isn't scummy and shows I was willing to hop on nom. I don't remember wagon specifics but I don't think that wagon goes through even if I stay on it (from memory I want to say Nero was pushing something else and I was with that or something).

4.) I did lead the wagon even if I jumped off and I don't think this is a thing that can be reasonably disagreed about.

[ChaosOmega]

1.) Okay sure she could hard shade me early if I'm her buddy but it also makes sense for her to push both sides in a TvT. But yea she did attack me super hard early and I had a sizable wagon to start the game.

2.) Scum don't have natural progressions but they also don't plan every single interaction out (or maybe some people do and I don't?)

I think nom reacted that way because Nero asked for what he got out of having me vote Rathe and he just made something up that he thought sounded convincing enough. That isn't "planning" the way I thought Nero was using it. ​

3.) I never said and don't think I implied my day one was dedicated to pushing nom. I said I took VFP's side because that is what I did. VFP said they were gladiatoring Nom and I said okay and voted Nom. It later dissipated but that isn't scummy and shows I was willing to hop on nom. I don't remember wagon specifics but I don't think that wagon goes through even if I stay on it (from memory I want to say Nero was pushing something else and I was with that or something).

4.) I did lead the wagon even if I jumped off and I don't think this is a thing that can be reasonably disagreed about.

1.) On page 2. You've been around a while, I do not believe you think an E-3 wagon on page 2 and someone attacking you is trying to get you limmed. But, it lets you say shit like this later to try and get towncred.

3.) Again with strawmanning my point. You said taking VFP's side in the VFP/nom 1v1 is AI. My point is that by the letter of the law you did, but none of your posts or content support this. The little bit of towncred you could try to take from it is completely wiped away by saying you don't think the wagon goes through, so you being on the wagon means nothing. And again, I believe your content D1 is very AI, defending scum in nom and Titus and attacking DGB while being on the nom wagon.

4.) That's been kind of your thing this game, starting things that if they go through make you look town but then trying to derail them afterwards. The osuka wagon D2, the Titus wagon D4.

[Dragon of the West]

after actually

HAVING CLAIMED

If this is saying what I think it is, you were like 1 inch away from realizing why I asked you to claim but you want to be strongheaded and unhelpful to the point of blindness

[Dwlee99]

I'm uninformed, defending slots that flip scum means nothing unless I do it in an associative way. My repeated point here is that thinking that scum are town does not make me evil because I can't know if they're evil or not before they flip.

[Dwlee99]

Chaos defended Titus yesterday in an informed way (chainsawing me), I defended her in an uninformed way (looking at all the evidence and weighing if I think she is evil through it).

[Dwlee99]

And yes, starting a wagon on scum is townie even if I doubt myself at different points. I'm not infallible and I don't treat my reads like that unless I'm extremely certain.

[Dragon of the West]

I think if Gamma flips green Chaos should be looked at, and if Gamma flips red Dwlee should be looked at. Dwlee v Chaos interactions in general read TvS to me

Going back to an old thought process of mine...Seeing as we think it's more likely there's one scum left, that points to Chaos because Gamma and Dwlee couldn't both flip red. Honestly I still think this interaction has to be TvS, if it's TvT then we probably lose through these two arguing to death

[DkKoba]

after actually

HAVING CLAIMED

If this is saying what I think it is, you were like 1 inch away from realizing why I asked you to claim but you want to be strongheaded and unhelpful to the point of blindness

My point was that my claim meant nothing to the gamestate and added 0 value. Maybe sometime i should write up a research paper on the subject that claiming is a dumb metric to read players except in more extreme cases

[DkKoba]

VOTE: Chaos
We got 3 lims and a potential 4th so i think this game is solved ya

[Dwlee99]

Koba I'm okay with the vote (still want to talk to Andres though) but also like any thoughts on what I said for why chaos over Kyo? Do you just agree or?

[DkKoba]

Koba I'm okay with the vote (still want to talk to Andres though) but also like any thoughts on what I said for why chaos over Kyo? Do you just agree or?

?????

[Dwlee99]

why chaos over kyouko fypov

Spoiler: My Response

I think Kyo's associatives are better with Titus/other scum. Chaos vote parked scum which is cool but is more indicative of bussing than actual cases and pushes (which Kyo did). I also have townread Kyo on play most of the game, whereas Chaos has felt null to me the entire game. I also think that Chaos' case on me is in bad faith, and since getting to E-1 he has resorted to sniping from the sidelines. He also said there was nothing to respond to in a large swathe of posts and said all I was saying was "nu-uh" when it had reasons to scumread him in there.

What do you want me to respond to? So far it's me making points against you and you going nuh-uh.

Nope, I'm clearly just scum not answering you on purpose. I'm also so bad as scum that I would leave Gamma alive to clear people and not just kill him N3, because if he dies, I can just coast pushing T3, Andres, getting town cred on Titus, manipulating StD since he's barely paying attention to this game it seems like, instead of flipping my push to target you with no support while not being on my supposed partner's lim and looking like dogshit. I don't know why you're just solidly townread because you post a million times. If I was scum who played this bad up to this point and got myself here, I would have self-hammered already, I have no way to win this.

Koba shouldn't claim, this is just something to act like you're talking about something important while keeping the game state the same and making my lim inevitable.

If you're going to ask why they shouldn't claim, they don't have results that would end the game or they would have claimed already. In which case, no reason to give the scum more information, their role being unknown is not hurting town right now at all.

First post is bad (read context to see what I said before he said it)

Second is saying he would selfhammer as scum and I feel like that is 1.) BS cause it's playing against win con as only scum and 2.) Is just always scummy.

Third is just snipey and lashing out.

[Gamma Emerald]

Limming you is a mechanical play, not only rooted in a scumread

I think the mechanical portion is kinda flimsy itself, I'm potentially okay getting eliminated tomorrow but yesterday it felt extremely premature
two results in what, 10 people? That wouldn't have really solved much

[Gamma Emerald]

I guess if you're town we can have this convo in the dead thread

or we can policy you for using this as an excuse to ignore dayplay

are you drunk
DotW is conftown

[Gamma Emerald]

And you jumped right to 6, any response to 1-5?

Do you think that's important?

[Gamma Emerald]

Here are some Chaos quotes from D4

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

Okay fair enough

There isn't a strong reason to or not to when I'm clearly okay with yeeting her today.

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

Maybe you can explain it for me then. Why is Titus a good lim today?

Okay just wants to know

Nero night kill, defense of nom, pushing the "neighbors," at the beginning of the game pushing the me vs Peta TvT fight, all of the reasons Nero/Peta/Anya were pushing Titus day 1/2/3, play being uninspiring, townread on Osuka and Vax (vax may have fluctuated between null and town I think I need to check), early aligning with the "masons," there is a lot there on rereading parts of day one and two.

It's a shame that none of this was true D3 and you had to vote for Anya instead of Titus.

On a not snarky note, does Gamma not dying N3 affect your Titus read at all?

That first paragraph could cut through wood

Kyo is in 3 of those 4 pairs, and I feel like you haven't questioned her or posted anything negative about her at all. That seems really weird to me. Is Kyo your top scumread?

Trying to get me to vote Kyo because I had her in two of my pairings (which I could have if I was evil and didn't want Titus to go through but didn't.)

I'm starting to think it's just Andre / Titus or Andre / Gamma with Andre / Titus being the stronger scum pair. But that's only because I don't believe Titus didn't know it was a fake hammer. Even if that was some how true, its just not how Titus town responds.

Andres/Titus doesn't make sense given Gamma's check pool.

Agree with Titus that the lim should be Gamma today.

Rip

those first two actually look scummy because that's typically how I see scum try to feel out if a bus is called for

[Gamma Emerald]

I think if Gamma flips green Chaos should be looked at, and if Gamma flips red Dwlee should be looked at. Dwlee v Chaos interactions in general read TvS to me

Going back to an old thought process of mine...Seeing as we think it's more likely there's one scum left, that points to Chaos because Gamma and Dwlee couldn't both flip red. Honestly I still think this interaction has to be TvS, if it's TvT then we probably lose through these two arguing to death

that's not a losing situation unless you decide to elim me for mechanical reasons midway through that
we have 2 miselims to burn (unless there's 2 scum, but that would probably not be balanced with town's power as I see it. If I want to dive this thought process deeper I'd have to do reviewer/mod meta to see if any of them have a predilection for scumsided setups)

[Dwlee99]

Gamma is probably only scum here if there are two left, given he replaced in and immediately voted Titus upon being told the lim was between Titus and STD

[ChaosOmega]

And you jumped right to 6, any response to 1-5?

Do you think that's important?

Do I think it's important that he tried insinuating my whole post is in bad faith by making a gotcha point out of part of 1 of my points, yes, obviously, don't be dumb.

[Dragon of the West]

Gamma is probably only scum here if there are two left, given he replaced in and immediately voted Titus upon being told the lim was between Titus and STD

Are you suggesting no gamma lim tomorrow?