Newbie 2074 | Game Over

[StrangeMatter]

Policy to me should not take priority over your actual reads though.

Leaven has indicated he isn’t really doing that though?

True, but I also noted he said that he'd vote someone else if. The only problem is the last couple posts to me don't come off as someone trying to scum hunt so far, which I still find a little odd, although this might just be their playstyle.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm still trying to get my head around what her CCing your VT claim means for her alignment

...I would think that’s an obvious troll by Salsa?

[StrangeMatter]

Still overwhelmingly likely to be VT, but as I've said previously, outside of a better option (which we likely will have in 5 days), my vote lands there.

I messed up the earlier post, but this is what I'm talking about.

[Ythan]

149 was about another game entirely
why are you trying to point out rulebreaks within other games outside of discussing ongoing games?

He said he did it in another game and got speedwagonned so he's going to try it again.

If you want to read the game you can.

Meta is for nerds.

Not telling you to analyse anything, I also hate meta and think it isn't in the spirit of the game but you can see what happened or just read it?

Note that I'm not voting you and haven't been for quite some time. My diatribes toward you about your play have nothing to do with the bearing of your antics on your alignment.

[JamesTheNames]

149 was about another game entirely
why are you trying to point out rulebreaks within other games outside of discussing ongoing games?

He said he did it in another game and got speedwagonned so he's going to try it again.

If you want to read the game you can.

Meta is for nerds.

Not telling you to analyse anything, I also hate meta and think it isn't in the spirit of the game but you can see what happened or just read it?

Note that I'm not voting you and haven't been for quite some time. My diatribes toward you about your play have nothing to do with the bearing of your antics on your alignment.

I'm not doing this for alignment but I can't say what I want because I don't want to be in a grey area with the rules again.

[Gamma Emerald]

Policy to me should not take priority over your actual reads though.

Leaven has indicated he isn’t really doing that though?

True, but I also noted he said that he'd vote someone else if. The only problem is the last couple posts to me don't come off as someone trying to scum hunt so far, which I still find a little odd, although this might just be their playstyle.

I will admit I haven’t seen him actually try to look elsewhere for scum but I feel like he’s kinda tunneled into the one point of discussion. I think a James townflip would be a solid thing to snap him out of it, but I don’t want to eliminate James solely for that so I think I’ll do the next-best thing.

@Leaven

: who would you think is scum if we eliminate James today and he flips town?

[Gamma Emerald]

So if Salsa, Leaven, and James all flip town this game. What are the takeaways.

- With Salsa, scum can freely do anti-town things and even be town-bucketed for it. Furthermore, if people vote that scummy behavior, they will actually be scum-bucketed for it.
- With myself, scum will know they can't easily get away with anti-town things.

What advantage does town get (now or in the future) from laying a red carpet down for scum to freely behave against the interest of town? I'm happy to create an environment that discourages anti-town behavior.

If James was randomly 25% Scum, 25% PR, 50% VT, now I have him at 30% Scum, 5% PR, 65% VT. Still overwhelmingly likely to be VT, but as I've said previously, outside of a better option (which we likely will have in 5 days), my vote lands there.

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnngggggggg

If you have time, check my meta, will see how townie I am all the time

Until I replaced into 2064, you were basically a consensus scum in that game. So this is incorrect.
Not to mention, if you were town you'd be able to give reasoning outside of meta. You are trying to play into the "too scum to be scum" category.
Posts: 80, 83, 111, 208, 223, 286, 306. All ping me that way.
I also don't buy the whole unvoting at E-2 nonsense.

What I meant was I openwolfing as town, so if anyone thinks anti-town = pro-scum and eliminate me for that, it’s not necessarily my fault. You need to find agenda behind the behaviour, scum will never act scummy.

[Gamma Emerald]

Btw, if

Leaven

flips red,

StrangeMatter

most likely their partner I think.

Well, you’d be wrong about only this, if he does flip red.

Also, do you have Town reads?

Dan

,

James

,

Val

.

Can I hear more about your read on Dann, Salsa?

Yeah, I played with them before + how they're playing here seems townie to me + I can mindmeld with them on some matter, so they're in townblock for now.

Translation: I know how charismatic Dann can be, I know he’s town, and I’m trying to pocket him.

[Gamma Emerald]

What I meant was I openwolfing as town, so if anyone thinks anti-town = pro-scum and eliminate me for that, it’s not necessarily my fault. You need to find agenda behind the behaviour, scum will never act scummy.

townies do outrageously pro-scum things all the time

scum try to look town

^This

i think that both of these seem to contradict eachother. which do you believe more? or am i looking at this wrong

they’re actually kinda the same thought
But they’re both at least somewhat off-base, so the fact you thought they were contradicting was probably sensible, your gut instinct told you something was wrong with them.

[Gamma Emerald]

i think that both of these seem to contradict eachother. which do you believe more? or am i looking at this wrong

hmmmm i think i am actually. ill point out what i see

scum will never act scummy, when combined with the statement "scum try to look town" when town act scummy means that one of the two are wrong

Okay now this makes more sense
This is actually a very good opportunity to explain a common mafia term: “wine in front of me”, shortened to “WIFOM” or “wine”. What it means is an argument that cycles around endlessly, because of and endless chain of if/then points. If scummy things get scumread, then scum don’t want to do them. But if town do scummy things all the time, then scum would want to do them to look town.
The problem with this scenario is that you can spend a long time basically getting nowhere. There is pretty much always a reason for scum to do something, because the minute someone says “why would scum do this?”, the reason has been created FOR them. So rather than trying to utilize vague principles that get you nowhere, it’s better to try and think about what makes sense in certain circumstances.

I could probably write more on the subject but I think the points of greatest import have been hit.

[Gamma Emerald]

Read-list:

Town:

James

Val

Dann

Null:

CLSR

Clark

Ythan

Scum:

SM

Leaven

Let’s note despite what I’d call positive interactions with CLSR and Ythan, they’re both still null
These don’t feel like legitimate reads

[Gamma Emerald]

Hello. I'll be catching up when I wake up. cowsloveSushirolls is scum. I'll explain why when I wake up.

James, do you have any plans to come back to this?

Yep I'm just being very careful with interactions with him, as to not break any rules.

huh
I think CLSR is probably town rn so that case should be, erm,

interesting

[Gamma Emerald]

Salsabi also came up for specific excuses why they wouldn't vote Val.

I didn't find any ping from that post, certainly not agreed with your reasoning, thus didn't vote. It's not an excuse, it's a read. And why do you think I would hop into voting after seeing your vote??

yeah, Dann's wording in that post comes off as rather uncharitable

Given how Dann interacted with Salsa here I get the feeling this was a catalyst for Salsa trying to pocket Dann
inb4...

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm pretty sure the whole point of newbie games and SEs is to try to keep players from making it into other games still believing stuff like that.

@396

“You do get that trolls definitely do repeat themselves right?”
“Blah blah the point of the newbie queue is blah blah”

THIS IS STUPID
You are so wrapped up in being holier-than-thou that you COMPLETELY MISSED the point I was making in 396!

[Salsabil Faria]

Last night (while being in bed), I realized,

Ythan

has only done theory stuff so far. Yes, they are a SE but also a player but instead of playing they're actually teaching everyone so far. If they really take the SE stuff seriously, they should concentrate more about practical stuff (meaning play the game by implementing the theory they have been teaching about), not only focus on correcting the theory talk of others.
That's been said, I think they are scum who are using their SE position as a shield.

UNVOTE: Leaven

VOTE: Ythan

[cowsloveSushirolls]

Spoiler: responding to Gamma Emerald's questions directed towards me (long)

Why doesn't a troll simply repeat themselves?

I think you on the other hand are being intentionally dense.

I feel like Val89 is onto something on the subject of trolls repeating themselves. Have you ever seen the

"sharks are smooth" troll?

that was a very fun read

while ythan still hasnt confirmed or denied it i will continue to assume that he meant that trolls wouldn't have the demeanor that James does, and whether they repeat themselves or not doesn't matter

dont scumread james for self voting and early claiming lol you guys are weird
if you read my tiny case you actually have reasons for why i didn't include them in towncore
reading back, responding to everybody

I take it you think James is scum but not for the reasons everyone else does?

yes, i found a lot of their early posting to be awkward when i made post 77, and then i continued to read them as mafia when they wouldn't stop talking about their own actions despite being limited by rules. i don't think i'll agree with my read after I look at the game fresh again, though.

kinda sad that the towncore isnt getting much resistance, now i just feel like a weenie with thread consensus reads

was that the plan?

the plan was to get people's attention on something game-related that wasn't james and their um, antics
everyone not included in the towncore had done nothing that stood out as towny

if you guys care about setup talk, claiming VT early as scum is poor play in a double goon setup without elaborate planning for the other person to be the PR claimer. early claiming locks the scumteam from one of the major advantages of being in that world (being able to claim a PR uncontested)
i wouldn't base a read around this of course, but its worth keeping in mind

I might be way off the mark but in this type of setup there's very little scum can claim that'll help them live more than maybe 2 days? The primary reason scum have to claim PR in a setup like this is to draw out a claim from the real PR

I don't think your conclusion is wrong, but I think you overestimate how much of an advantage being able to claim PR is, when all the possible setups are listed in the OP

i based that post off a small NewD3 fakeclaiming guide i was given when playing this setup offsite, and also a game I was keeping up on loosely, where the final scum claimed tracker in a world where JK was the only PR. huge gambit, since it wasn't to contest anybody. they rode that claim for two days until final 3, which they won. whether you think it's because town weren't paranoid about which setup world it was or not, you gotta admit that it was a pretty sweet move. some level 0 meta: james was in there as mafia, their behavior is nearly nothing like this game
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=87026 (Newbie 2070 - Airplanes)

james is totally marinating me by making funny cow puns and soft defenses. not on my watch! i am not to be eaten
VOTE: JamesTheNames
if you guys want an awesome towncore already i suggest me-val-salsa-leaven-dann. condemn the scraps in no particular order, smile

why salsa? I'm guessing the towncore is at least semi-serious

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12914104 has that explained

i think that both of these seem to contradict eachother. which do you believe more? or am i looking at this wrong

hmmmm i think i am actually. ill point out what i see

scum will never act scummy, when combined with the statement "scum try to look town" when town act scummy means that one of the two are wrong

Okay now this makes more sense
This is actually a very good opportunity to explain a common mafia term: “wine in front of me”, shortened to “WIFOM” or “wine”. What it means is an argument that cycles around endlessly, because of and endless chain of if/then points. If scummy things get scumread, then scum don’t want to do them. But if town do scummy things all the time, then scum would want to do them to look town.
The problem with this scenario is that you can spend a long time basically getting nowhere. There is pretty much always a reason for scum to do something, because the minute someone says “why would scum do this?”, the reason has been created FOR them. So rather than trying to utilize vague principles that get you nowhere, it’s better to try and think about what makes sense in certain circumstances.

I could probably write more on the subject but I think the points of greatest import have been hit.

nice, thanks for explaining that one to me.

I'm pretty sure the whole point of newbie games and SEs is to try to keep players from making it into other games still believing stuff like that.

@396

“You do get that trolls definitely do repeat themselves right?”
“Blah blah the point of the newbie queue is blah blah”

THIS IS STUPID
You are so wrapped up in being holier-than-thou that you COMPLETELY MISSED the point I was making in 396!

no, 396 was your post about ythan pointing out the potential rulebreaks james has done, which ythan's response fits with

i laid kinda low today, that's my bad. will pick up posting tomorrow

[Salsabil Faria]

Hello. I'll be catching up when I wake up. cowsloveSushirolls is scum. I'll explain why when I wake up.

James, do you have any plans to come back to this?

Yep I'm just being very careful with interactions with him, as to not break any rules.

What do you mean?

[Salsabil Faria]

To that end, I owe James an apology. All this activity is proof that his line had merit. UNVOTE: JamesTheNames

VOTE: ClarkBar 10 posts? Come save us please!

Wut??

[cowsloveSushirolls]

So if Salsa, Leaven, and James all flip town this game. What are the takeaways.

- With Salsa, scum can freely do anti-town things and even be town-bucketed for it. Furthermore, if people vote that scummy behavior, they will actually be scum-bucketed for it.
- With myself, scum will know they can't easily get away with anti-town things.

What advantage does town get (now or in the future) from laying a red carpet down for scum to freely behave against the interest of town? I'm happy to create an environment that discourages anti-town behavior.

If James was randomly 25% Scum, 25% PR, 50% VT, now I have him at 30% Scum, 5% PR, 65% VT. Still overwhelmingly likely to be VT, but as I've said previously, outside of a better option (which we likely will have in 5 days), my vote lands there.

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnngggggggg

If you have time, check my meta, will see how townie I am all the time

This is scummy.

i assumed that salsa was joking because of the laughing emote and constant talking about how anti-town actions do not equal pro-scum, which stems from personal experience more than anything (?)

[Salsabil Faria]

Now seeking replacement for ClarkBar.

Gamma Emerald replaces ClarkBar.

Yay! Hi

Gamma

[Salsabil Faria]

Salsabi also came up for specific excuses why they wouldn't vote Val.

I didn't find any ping from that post, certainly not agreed with your reasoning, thus didn't vote. It's not an excuse, it's a read. And why do you think I would hop into voting after seeing your vote??

yeah, Dann's wording in that post comes off as rather uncharitable

O yeah, I totally forget about this...

@Dann

, you don't give the answer yet ig.

[cowsloveSushirolls]

oh no

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I think you replaced into a scum slot :/

reaction test 2: electric boogaloo?

[Salsabil Faria]

I think StrangeMatter and Leaven are my top two scum reads.

Val and James can be very tentatively town for now

why those scumreads?
I feel like Ythan and Salsa are my leading scumspects rn

[Salsabil Faria]

oh no

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I think you replaced into a scum slot :/

Since when you scumread

Clark

slot???