Newbie 2073: Parfait (Over)

[shwinnebego]

I can try to put words together on it sometimes tomorrow. I'm second guessing my read on STD, mainly.

I thought you told me to wait until day 3 to get paranoid and second guess myself

[Val89]

People who have good analysis: catboi, meg, savethedragons
people whose analysis is defective: roden, general wu, val

Which analysis by StD do you think is 'good'?

[shwinnebego]

People who have good analysis: catboi, meg, savethedragons
people whose analysis is defective: roden, general wu, val

Which analysis by StD do you think is 'good'?

Mostly them calling you on your bullshit and not letting you get away with crummy argumentation, while the rest of the players in this game seem rather content to let your weak arguments pass relatively unexamined.

If you are not a wolf, then wolves benefit from your playstyle in my view.

[Val89]

I take a different view.

hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

If possible, can you explain why you just moved your vote?

Please spell it out plainly if possible, unless you really really think that continuing to post cryptically will benefit town. If you do not do that, then barring someone else explaining to me why your cryptic approach to posting helps town in a sufficiently compelling fashion, I will interpret your actions and cryptic justifications for them as wolfish behavior.

i do not think discussing this benefits the town

See; even StD himself came out a few pages ago, and appears to understand what is up; which is why I find it scummy that since then he has gone back on it and tried to draw me back into this conversation, although to be fair, he hasn't been pushing it too hard. You have, however.

Roden has posted enough that I am 100% confident he knows what's up. I'm fairly certainly catboi knows the deal. Meg and Wu haven't given indication they are following, but neither of them have said they are struggling to follow here, either. The only slot who is now going hard at trying to draw me into a conversation that I think basically everyone else knows is anti-town is you. I don't think it's a coindience that is the two slots I am scumreading are the two complaining that I'm being a cagey and avoiding spelling exactly what the issue is (and for the avoidence of doubt, I am doing so because, as StD acknowlegded, to do so otherwise may prove to be anti-town).

If I am reading the room wrong, and people really have no idea what my problem with StD and what he posted early with respect to navigator, then I will spell out - but only if I am asked to do so by my town reads - not by you, shwin.

[catboi]

I can try to put words together on it sometimes tomorrow. I'm second guessing my read on STD, mainly.

I thought you told me to wait until day 3 to get paranoid and second guess myself

Do as I say, not as I do. Probably.

[shwinnebego]

Fair enough - if you don't want to spell things out for me upon my request that is your prerogative. If you are confident that everyone else is in a lockstep mindmeld with you, great. I'd like to hear from others.

[shwinnebego]

Roden seems pretty damn sure that I'm a wolf.

Roden, how do you reconcile my consistent vote on StD coupled with you having never voted him with the "shwin is flailing desperately to defend StD" narrative?

Genuinely curious how you've squared that circle in your head.

[catboi]

If I am reading the room wrong, and people really have no idea what my problem with StD and what he posted early with respect to navigator, then I will spell out - but only if I am asked to do so by my town reads - not by you, shwin.

I will be honest here - I think you're overreacting and that his intention in quoting that may not have been sinister, given his followup of voting you. But I'm not entirely confident on that.

[catboi]

VOTE: GeneralWu

I think my general d1 suspicions toward them haven't diminished, and shwinniebego brought up a good point about how the vote on them dissolved yesterday despite them saying nothing at E-1.
Let's get this show on the road.

So, the "general D1 suspicions" that Meg had toward GeneralWu were that he wasn't trying to find scum, but that came very early:

VOTE: GeneralWu

Hadn't finished reading and didn't see catboi unvote.
My thoughts: GeneralWu has generally done nothing to try to find scum this game, the closest to their "scumreads" is questioning why poeple think other people are towny. Now they jump to the defense of another player that realistically would not be voted out nor has done anything worthy of being townread.
Honestly it seems like GeneralWu is either scum that is paired with shwinnebago.

I would ask to not put people to E-1 though, as the longer this day goes on, the more informed decisions we can make.

Here's my problem: looking back at generalwu, he's contributed a ton since then. I haven't always agreed with it but he's been putting opinions and analysis in thread. I look at him now, and you know, what, he does look like he's solving, I just was locked in and being tunneled. Meg has responded to essentially none of it save the case generalwu made on him. I'm not certain he's actually trying to read GeneralWu at all.

[MegAzumarill]

I still think its likely Wu flips red here, though I recognize they probably aren't the lim today. I think I am fine with voting out either shwinnie or StD today over Wu. Not going to move my vote over yet though.

[catboi]

Why do you think he flips red? I need more words beyond "not trying to find scum", because I don't think that's at all true anymore.

[Roden]

Roden seems pretty damn sure that I'm a wolf.

Roden, how do you reconcile my consistent vote on StD coupled with you having never voted him with the "shwin is flailing desperately to defend StD" narrative?

Genuinely curious how you've squared that circle in your head.

Because you never even attempted to build a case on StD but I did. Just because I didn't vote him yet doesn't mean I wasn't going to, I've already made it clear why hammering early is a bad idea and anti-town. The results speak for themselves, you spewed TMI from getting too antsy. I don't think you're unaware of what's going on with Val either, since it's pretty obvious at this point and I feel kinda dumb talking around it.

What I'm not understanding is why you would think it looks townie to hard defend StD here, regardless of your alignment. As I said, you haven't given us a scum case and you instead reaffirmed how much you vibe with him despite scum reading him. It implies that you at the very least don't expect him to flip red. Coupled with your sudden hard defense coming in just as I suggested that Wu could be the PoE choice makes it look like you have ulterior motives. This mainly comes from my own read/PoE on Wu but also Meg's read on Wu as well since I've been town reading them.

Is there a reason you appear to be against a Wu elim? Because he went from one of your top quorum to a 4th place threat the moment he was even considered as an elim.

[shwinnebego]

Roden seems pretty damn sure that I'm a wolf.

Roden, how do you reconcile my consistent vote on StD coupled with you having never voted him with the "shwin is flailing desperately to defend StD" narrative?

Genuinely curious how you've squared that circle in your head.

Because you never even attempted to build a case on StD but I did. Just because I didn't vote him yet doesn't mean I wasn't going to, I've already made it clear why hammering early is a bad idea and anti-town. The results speak for themselves, you spewed TMI from getting too antsy. I don't think you're unaware of what's going on with Val either, since it's pretty obvious at this point and I feel kinda dumb talking around it.

What I'm not understanding is why you would think it looks townie to hard defend StD here, regardless of your alignment. As I said, you haven't given us a scum case and you instead reaffirmed how much you vibe with him despite scum reading him. It implies that you at the very least don't expect him to flip red. Coupled with your sudden hard defense coming in just as I suggested that Wu could be the PoE choice makes it look like you have ulterior motives. This mainly comes from my own read/PoE on Wu but also Meg's read on Wu as well since I've been town reading them.

Is there a reason you appear to be against a Wu elim? Because he went from one of your top quorum to a 4th place threat the moment he was even considered as an elim.

I don't really vibe with this version of events.

I'm not against a Wu elim.

Do I think StD will flip red? Maybe. I think it's more likely than not that he will flip green, though. I think it's more likely than not that any of you will flip green, since we have 7 people in this game and only 2 of them are evil and I don't feel especially certain about anyone. I sure would like to flip StD to find out at this point, though, since I don't see any other flip giving us as much or more information. I'm ready to do that shit right now.

I actually disagree that we are learning more right now. I feel like posts like yours are either evidence of a townie getting led further astray by spinning our town wheels, or a wolf creating more distracting information. Either way, I genuinely think it is in town's best interest to go ahead and hammer someone, preferably StD, like, now.

[Val89]

I will be honest here - I think you're overreacting and that his intention in quoting that may not have been sinister, given his followup of voting you. But I'm not entirely confident on that.

Honestly, I was having second thoughts too, but his last few posts shook them out of me.

I think his unvote followed by his 'I don't think discussing this is town', seemed to be representing that it was accidental, and he was walking back from it. But if you know what youve done, you know why it at least

seems

scummy, even if you don't have a sinister motive, and his flipping back and forth on "no, I understand why spelling it out might be anti-town" and "I don't understand why Val thinks I seem scummy" seems a bit like trying to have his cake, and eat it.

The other consideration is that he did sit at E-1 for a little bit, and he didn't decide to go down the route of the T3 school of scum moves, which would be the obvious thing for StD to do there, but then again, scum might have decided it's pointless at this point amd they know everything they wanted to know anyway.

I will consider another lim today, if you really think there is a good chance he flips town (I don't, personally) but I really dont fancy our chances with him in an ELO, which by my reckoning could come as early as tomorrow if we get this one wrong.

[MegAzumarill]

Just went through a thorough readthrough of Wu's posts, and I feel I am going at them a bit too harshly. Looking at a lot of the reactions that they have seem reason able enough to have come from a town Wu (although I definitely don't think scum Wu is off the table). I have TR val, roden, and catboy for a long while because they appear to be approaching the game with a similar thought process of my own, I believe that it would be good to look through their posts to try to make sure that assumption is correct. I also think StD's flip would be important to help that analysis as well, and I think its close to time for that flip.

I don't think its really any more likely them than Wu, but I think the flip is more telling.

VOTE: SavetheDragons

This is E-1.

[Roden]

Roden seems pretty damn sure that I'm a wolf.

Roden, how do you reconcile my consistent vote on StD coupled with you having never voted him with the "shwin is flailing desperately to defend StD" narrative?

Genuinely curious how you've squared that circle in your head.

Because you never even attempted to build a case on StD but I did. Just because I didn't vote him yet doesn't mean I wasn't going to, I've already made it clear why hammering early is a bad idea and anti-town. The results speak for themselves, you spewed TMI from getting too antsy. I don't think you're unaware of what's going on with Val either, since it's pretty obvious at this point and I feel kinda dumb talking around it.

What I'm not understanding is why you would think it looks townie to hard defend StD here, regardless of your alignment. As I said, you haven't given us a scum case and you instead reaffirmed how much you vibe with him despite scum reading him. It implies that you at the very least don't expect him to flip red. Coupled with your sudden hard defense coming in just as I suggested that Wu could be the PoE choice makes it look like you have ulterior motives. This mainly comes from my own read/PoE on Wu but also Meg's read on Wu as well since I've been town reading them.

Is there a reason you appear to be against a Wu elim? Because he went from one of your top quorum to a 4th place threat the moment he was even considered as an elim.

I don't really vibe with this version of events.

I'm not against a Wu elim.

Do I think StD will flip red? Maybe. I think it's more likely than not that he will flip green, though. I think it's more likely than not that any of you will flip green, since we have 7 people in this game and only 2 of them are evil and I don't feel especially certain about anyone. I sure would like to flip StD to find out at this point, though, since I don't see any other flip giving us as much or more information. I'm ready to do that shit right now.

I actually disagree that we are learning more right now. I feel like posts like yours are either evidence of a townie getting led further astray by spinning our town wheels, or a wolf creating more distracting information. Either way, I genuinely think it is in town's best interest to go ahead and hammer someone, preferably StD, like, now.

Tbh I'm not vibing with your post either. Calling it my "version of events" is just a loaded accusation meant to discredit me without actually challenging what I said. I'm telling you my perspective and read on the situation, which is inherently subjective and biased regardless of my alignment.

The rest of your post just reads as a thinly veiled threat, and your accusation that I'm either being led astray or a wolf looks really bad considering it was your statements that led us here. If you're town then I highly recommend stepping back and re-evaluating how you're being perceived, because I don't want to 1v1 a townie come tomorrow.

[shwinnebego]

If both you and Val are town, then I suppose I'm struggling quite to bit to understand either of your reasoning. I can't seem to get on the same page as either of you.

If we flip StD, and StD flips green, and both town!you and town!Val pivot to presuming that I am evil based on flimsy reasoning (something something TMI) and mislim me leading to a town loss, that will be on you.

[shwinnebego]

(Assuming all three of us survive to tomrrow, which, if I was a wolf!Meg or wolf!catboi or wolf!Wu I would be absolutely certain to allow, given how eager we seem to be to take one another out)

[shwinnebego]

Roden seems pretty damn sure that I'm a wolf.

Roden, how do you reconcile my consistent vote on StD coupled with you having never voted him with the "shwin is flailing desperately to defend StD" narrative?

Genuinely curious how you've squared that circle in your head.

Because you never even attempted to build a case on StD but I did. Just because I didn't vote him yet doesn't mean I wasn't going to, I've already made it clear why hammering early is a bad idea and anti-town. The results speak for themselves, you spewed TMI from getting too antsy. I don't think you're unaware of what's going on with Val either, since it's pretty obvious at this point and I feel kinda dumb talking around it.

What I'm not understanding is why you would think it looks townie to hard defend StD here, regardless of your alignment. As I said, you haven't given us a scum case and you instead reaffirmed how much you vibe with him despite scum reading him. It implies that you at the very least don't expect him to flip red. Coupled with your sudden hard defense coming in just as I suggested that Wu could be the PoE choice makes it look like you have ulterior motives. This mainly comes from my own read/PoE on Wu but also Meg's read on Wu as well since I've been town reading them.

Is there a reason you appear to be against a Wu elim? Because he went from one of your top quorum to a 4th place threat the moment he was even considered as an elim.

I don't really vibe with this version of events.

I'm not against a Wu elim.

Do I think StD will flip red? Maybe. I think it's more likely than not that he will flip green, though. I think it's more likely than not that any of you will flip green, since we have 7 people in this game and only 2 of them are evil and I don't feel especially certain about anyone. I sure would like to flip StD to find out at this point, though, since I don't see any other flip giving us as much or more information. I'm ready to do that shit right now.

I actually disagree that we are learning more right now. I feel like posts like yours are either evidence of a townie getting led further astray by spinning our town wheels, or a wolf creating more distracting information. Either way, I genuinely think it is in town's best interest to go ahead and hammer someone, preferably StD, like, now.

Tbh I'm not vibing with your post either. Calling it my "version of events" is just a loaded accusation meant to discredit me without actually challenging what I said. I'm telling you my perspective and read on the situation, which is inherently subjective and biased regardless of my alignment.

The rest of your post just reads as a thinly veiled threat, and your accusation that I'm either being led astray or a wolf looks really bad considering it was your statements that led us here. If you're town then I highly recommend stepping back and re-evaluating how you're being perceived, because I don't want to 1v1 a townie come tomorrow.

I disagree that my statements led us here.

I have at no point defended StD's towniness. I have only pushed back against Val's weak reasoning, which is a good thing for town players to do.

You are the one who has conflated these two distinct matters and remains steadfast in your refusal, or frustratingly persistent in your inability, to disentangle them. That conflation is what has led us here, and there is one person who is responsible for it: you. If you are town, please for the love of god use whatever brain power you have to grasp these distinctions.

[Roden]

Just went through a thorough readthrough of Wu's posts, and I feel I am going at them a bit too harshly. Looking at a lot of the reactions that they have seem reason able enough to have come from a town Wu (although I definitely don't think scum Wu is off the table). I have TR val, roden, and catboy for a long while because they appear to be approaching the game with a similar thought process of my own, I believe that it would be good to look through their posts to try to make sure that assumption is correct. I also think StD's flip would be important to help that analysis as well, and I think its close to time for that flip.

I don't think its really any more likely them than Wu, but I think the flip is more telling.

VOTE: SavetheDragons

This is E-1.

Sorry Catboi, I think you have a point but I'm pretty sure Meg is just town here and VLA just affected their progression.

If StD is town then he's throwing by staying quiet. He went silent the moment the spotlight slightly veered away from him and was out of hammer range, which is something scum would do if they felt they needed to lay low and let town fight amongst themselves.

Consider this post as intent to hammer.

[shwinnebego]

brain power is the wrong word, sorry i'm genuinely not trying to be a jerk, i'm just struggling to believe that you really think pushing back against Val is the same thing as trying to stop an StD quorum

[Roden]

I disagree that my statements led us here.

I have at no point defended StD's towniness. I have only pushed back against Val's weak reasoning, which is a good thing for town players to do.

You are the one who has conflated these two distinct matters and remains steadfast in your refusal, or frustratingly persistent in your inability, to disentangle them. That conflation is what has led us here, and there is one person who is responsible for it: you. If you are town, please for the love of god use whatever brain power you have to grasp these distinctions.

brain power is the wrong word, sorry i'm genuinely not trying to be a jerk, i'm just struggling to believe that you really think pushing back against Val is the same thing as trying to stop an StD quorum

I'm not really sure how else to get across that pushing back against an accusation that was directed at someone else is a direct defense for that person. This really isn't obtuse logic.

[Roden]

Can I get another opinion on this? Is my perspective unreasonable or am I getting gaslit here?

[shwinnebego]

We might just not see eye to eye on this and whatever, but I really do think that I can (1) maintain that StD is my top quorum pick and (2) hold other players to a high standard of rigor in argumentation, *yes even if they are accusing the person who I too find suspicious* - in fact I would contend that it is *wolfish* to let any argument fly so long as it is directed at the person I would like to see quorumed; we want to be right for the right reasons, as town.

[shwinnebego]

It is wolfish to want to see a particular player quorumed by Any Means Necessary.

It is townish to carefully scrutinize arguments from all players, regarding all players.