Newbie 2074 | Game Over

[Gamma Emerald]

the case for salsa provided by gamma was a lot more vague than i wanted, then he drops a whole bunch of good reasons to vote salsa post-elim despite wanting to focus on improving his slot's credibility

Everything except my meta point I’m pretty sure I brought up D1?

[Gamma Emerald]

You're an easy target?

You might have seen me as one
But the James and SM votes, and arguably the Val vote, all kinda were on people who’d done something peculiar which you could latch on to

[Gamma Emerald]

Well, now that I think about it, James and Val definitely were, and SM was the debatable one

[cowsloveSushirolls]

the case for salsa provided by gamma was a lot more vague than i wanted, then he drops a whole bunch of good reasons to vote salsa post-elim despite wanting to focus on improving his slot's credibility

Everything except my meta point I’m pretty sure I brought up D1?

this is true, my bad

[Gamma Emerald]

there's a surprising lack of "i would've stopped the wagon if i were here" which is kinda ???

This also confuses me
Why was it expected that I would have stopped the wagon? I guess the fact Ythan hopped on could have given me pause, but I don’t think it’s worth crying over spilt town elims when I couldn’t really do much about it. In actuality I think the on-meta thing for scum!me to do would have been to come in putting on an act about how Ythan is untrustworthy and his vote should have ground that wagon to a halt or something. But take that with a grain of salt I guess.

[cowsloveSushirolls]

Why was it expected that I would have stopped the wagon? I guess the fact Ythan hopped on could have given me pause, but I don’t think it’s worth crying over spilt town elims when I couldn’t really do much about it. In actuality I think the on-meta thing for scum!me to do would have been to come in putting on an act about how Ythan is untrustworthy and his vote should have ground that wagon to a halt or something. But take that with a grain of salt I guess.

yeah, you're right that you couldn't have done much about it, the elim happened during the dead of night (i'm assuming you were asleep or just gone while this happened) and like you said, it isn't worth crying over spilt town elims

i'm talking about the train of thought/lesson that a person would have today, that the voters of the salsa wagon were going in circles (and so was she) meaning that if the case was going nowhere you needed to step back and develop it more before putting more pressure. i don't think anyone really "learned" anything from limming salsa judging by today's votes which seem to not have been influenced by anything
originally my focus was the people who were on the wagon (you, ythan and strange) but two of you have not voted yet and one is just doing a policy vote, meaning that I should really be focusing more on the people outside of the wagon

it could be something only i observed, but i find it unlikely that all of town is tunneling right now. if it's actually the case i desperately need help
i'm hoping by pointing this out the cases get a little more thought put into them

the point i'm trying to make in this word salad is that nobody is taking anything away from the salsa condemn except for leaven, which worries me

[cowsloveSushirolls]

Also, I wasn’t here to even be able to stop them from hammering themselves, which just makes me angry to think about.

i didn't catch this originally, turns out there was one person who has the same mentality i did

*arbitrary townread*

not sure about the logic on the ythan vote though. it feels too hasty especially since you asked them an important question before this, so it looks more like policy than anything

I have no regrets if he flips green. I’d rather eliminate this now than let him stay, though.

[Gamma Emerald]

Spoiler: responding to Gamma Emerald's questions directed towards me (long)

Why doesn't a troll simply repeat themselves?

I think you on the other hand are being intentionally dense.

I feel like Val89 is onto something on the subject of trolls repeating themselves. Have you ever seen the

"sharks are smooth" troll?

that was a very fun read

while ythan still hasnt confirmed or denied it i will continue to assume that he meant that trolls wouldn't have the demeanor that James does, and whether they repeat themselves or not doesn't matter

dont scumread james for self voting and early claiming lol you guys are weird
if you read my tiny case you actually have reasons for why i didn't include them in towncore
reading back, responding to everybody

I take it you think James is scum but not for the reasons everyone else does?

yes, i found a lot of their early posting to be awkward when i made post 77, and then i continued to read them as mafia when they wouldn't stop talking about their own actions despite being limited by rules. i don't think i'll agree with my read after I look at the game fresh again, though.

kinda sad that the towncore isnt getting much resistance, now i just feel like a weenie with thread consensus reads

was that the plan?

the plan was to get people's attention on something game-related that wasn't james and their um, antics
everyone not included in the towncore had done nothing that stood out as towny

if you guys care about setup talk, claiming VT early as scum is poor play in a double goon setup without elaborate planning for the other person to be the PR claimer. early claiming locks the scumteam from one of the major advantages of being in that world (being able to claim a PR uncontested)
i wouldn't base a read around this of course, but its worth keeping in mind

I might be way off the mark but in this type of setup there's very little scum can claim that'll help them live more than maybe 2 days? The primary reason scum have to claim PR in a setup like this is to draw out a claim from the real PR

I don't think your conclusion is wrong, but I think you overestimate how much of an advantage being able to claim PR is, when all the possible setups are listed in the OP

i based that post off a small NewD3 fakeclaiming guide i was given when playing this setup offsite, and also a game I was keeping up on loosely, where the final scum claimed tracker in a world where JK was the only PR. huge gambit, since it wasn't to contest anybody. they rode that claim for two days until final 3, which they won. whether you think it's because town weren't paranoid about which setup world it was or not, you gotta admit that it was a pretty sweet move. some level 0 meta: james was in there as mafia, their behavior is nearly nothing like this game
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=87026 (Newbie 2070 - Airplanes)

james is totally marinating me by making funny cow puns and soft defenses. not on my watch! i am not to be eaten
VOTE: JamesTheNames
if you guys want an awesome towncore already i suggest me-val-salsa-leaven-dann. condemn the scraps in no particular order, smile

why salsa? I'm guessing the towncore is at least semi-serious

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12914104 has that explained

i think that both of these seem to contradict eachother. which do you believe more? or am i looking at this wrong

hmmmm i think i am actually. ill point out what i see

scum will never act scummy, when combined with the statement "scum try to look town" when town act scummy means that one of the two are wrong

Okay now this makes more sense
This is actually a very good opportunity to explain a common mafia term: “wine in front of me”, shortened to “WIFOM” or “wine”. What it means is an argument that cycles around endlessly, because of and endless chain of if/then points. If scummy things get scumread, then scum don’t want to do them. But if town do scummy things all the time, then scum would want to do them to look town.
The problem with this scenario is that you can spend a long time basically getting nowhere. There is pretty much always a reason for scum to do something, because the minute someone says “why would scum do this?”, the reason has been created FOR them. So rather than trying to utilize vague principles that get you nowhere, it’s better to try and think about what makes sense in certain circumstances.

I could probably write more on the subject but I think the points of greatest import have been hit.

nice, thanks for explaining that one to me.

I'm pretty sure the whole point of newbie games and SEs is to try to keep players from making it into other games still believing stuff like that.

@396

“You do get that trolls definitely do repeat themselves right?”
“Blah blah the point of the newbie queue is blah blah”

THIS IS STUPID
You are so wrapped up in being holier-than-thou that you COMPLETELY MISSED the point I was making in 396!

no, 396 was your post about ythan pointing out the potential rulebreaks james has done, which ythan's response fits with

i laid kinda low today, that's my bad. will pick up posting tomorrow

Was re-reading the EoD1 stuff to double check the timeframe (which yeah I was either asleep or not active on site for) and noticed this existed
I’ll try to respond to stuff in this later, but if

@CLSR

wants to give specific tips on what he wants a response to that would be appreciated

[cowsloveSushirolls]

nothing in particular, just acknowledge that you've read it

i think if the two people i talked about the most in there were still alive i'd ask for a few specific questions to be answered, lol

[Gamma Emerald]

Also re: 555 I’m guessing your concern is that no one seems to be actually taking a moment and re-evaluating? I guess that’s reasonable but people who weren’t on board with the Salsa wagon (Val is probably the foremost name in this group) probably don’t have much urge to do so

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay I’ve read it all
And yeah I guess I mistook what the post number was when making 464

[cowsloveSushirolls]

Also re: 555 I’m guessing your concern is that no one seems to be actually taking a moment and re-evaluating? I guess that’s reasonable but people who weren’t on board with the Salsa wagon (Val is probably the foremost name in this group) probably don’t have much urge to do so

i'd say they should if the person they're pushing was a major factor in that wagon
very likely that they won't re-eval in the sense that they change their read on Ythan but openly mentioning that the condemn did nothing for you and your read on ythan isn't a particularly good look

[Gamma Emerald]

I will not be retracting my claim, nor claiming a PR further down the game.

It sounds like you fail to understand that if you are town this narrows down scum's search for potential power roles.

You need to understand that this is wrong before you play real games, for real.

If House were in this game I'd expect him to call this out as proper play scolding, but as he isn't I'll do it instead
this feels like Ythan is more interested in lecturing people than actually sorting them

James is doing a bunch of dumb shit in a newbie game I'm an se in so yeah there's a bit of that. Is it all I'm posting? No it isn't.

actually yes

I may not have 400+ d1 of this game like certain players but nah ur full of shit sorry.

You actually are among like top 3 posters rn
Probably means nothing but still, kinda underselling your posting here

[Gamma Emerald]

You hammered yourself. So yeah you are a clown awesome.

There are corner cases where it's okay to self hammer as scum maybe especially the goon but if you're looking for advice in a newbie game I'd say just don't.

This feels like faking uninformed perspective
First he goes for the clown line, then tries to double-down, this time acting like Salsa is definitely flipping scum

[Gamma Emerald]

I’m half-inclined to vote Ythan since my main holding issue was letting CLSR check in but I feel like by what CLSR just mentioned I should give it more time

[cowsloveSushirolls]

what exactly do you make of the James kill, gamma?
519 suggests knowledge of the setup as not-double goon but i don't believe it's the case if James, a d1 villager claim with no intention of retracting was murdered

[Gamma Emerald]

I kinda think it reinforces the idea that Ythan is scum, as that was James’ other main push that wasn’t Salsa iirc
But he was also universally townread, so it may be a low info kill in that sense.
Basically, objectively it probably means nothing but I feel like it points to Ythan

[Val89]

CLSR, would you mind explaining what you meant by 'huge' in your post 323?

[cowsloveSushirolls]

CLSR, would you mind explaining what you meant by 'huge' in your post 323?

at the time, i was aware that you were pushing Ythan for being dodgy and hostile, but I wasn't aware of why you were pushing it so hard or why it was even scummy until that post came out

by "huge" i mean "this is super important"

looking back at that post, do you consider james's green flip as "evidence to the contrary"? while i haven't read the actual game yet, the discredit attempt by norwee seems to have been to defend their scumbuddy until they were able to nightkill you

[Leaven]

Val, outside of ythan, who is your 2nd highest scumread?

[Val89]

by "huge" i mean "this is super important"

Yeah, that's what I took it to mean. I asked, because I kinda expected after you decided something was 'super important' that there would be some follow up.

I asked directly, because I thought there was an outside possiblity you might have meant it was "super-important" with regards to my own alignment rather than Ythan's; which while I can't see how that would work, it would at least make some sense given your readslist today, but no - your answer seems to be 'It was superimportant because I understood why you considered what Ythan did as scummy, whereas I wasn't before'.

There are two ways you could take that, either "I see where Val is coming from, now, but while I don't agree with it, I can understand why someone would say that", or else "Actually, I think that's a decent argument and I buy it". Neither of those conclusions tie with the fact you have come out today TRing Ythan and SRing me.

There are a few other things that have pinged me about the CLSR slot, but I'm heading out for a bit now so it'll have to wait til I get back before I point them all out, but to answer your question, Leaven - in a word - CowsLoveSushiRolls.

[Val89]

Sorry, I didn't actually answer your question, CLSR. I'm scumleaning your slot right now, but since I'm not confident in that read, I'll assume the question is being asked in good faith, and the answer will help others in any case.

In short - No, because the "discredit attempt" if you want to call it that WASN'T aimed at defending their scummybuddy (T3), and I don't see how you came to that conclusion. I'll give a fully answer when I return if you need one, but it was less a discredit attempt and more an attitude of "You are a newbie and I'm SE, so I don't actually need to answer your questions", and it was because he didn't really have an answer to the questions I was asking; and he felt like he couldn't just say "I don't have an answer" as scum.

[cowsloveSushirolls]

by "huge" i mean "this is super important"

Yeah, that's what I took it to mean. I asked, because I kinda expected after you decided something was 'super important' that there would be some follow up.

I asked directly, because I thought there was an outside possiblity you might have meant it was "super-important" with regards to my own alignment rather than Ythan's; which while I can't see how that would work, it would at least make some sense given your readslist today, but no - your answer seems to be 'It was superimportant because I understood why you considered what Ythan did as scummy, whereas I wasn't before'.

There are two ways you could take that, either "I see where Val is coming from, now, but while I don't agree with it, I can understand why someone would say that", or else "Actually, I think that's a decent argument and I buy it". Neither of those conclusions tie with the fact you have come out today TRing Ythan and SRing me.

There are a few other things that have pinged me about the CLSR slot, but I'm heading out for a bit now so it'll have to wait til I get back before I point them all out, but to answer your question, Leaven - in a word - CowsLoveSushiRolls.

it didn't feel like something I could really follow up on until i read the actual game you were talking about. for now, my reads are not based around the case you have for ythan yet, because i won't know how far the connections go until i actually read
i'm sure you figured that i didn't really pay attention when you responded to my post below

In short - No, because the "discredit attempt" if you want to call it that WASN'T aimed at defending their scummybuddy (T3), and I don't see how you came to that conclusion. I'll give a fully answer when I return if you need one, but it was less a discredit attempt and more an attitude of "You are a newbie and I'm SE, so I don't actually need to answer your questions", and it was because he didn't really have an answer to the questions I was asking; and he felt like he couldn't just say "I don't have an answer" as scum.

i'm mixing up another game where james was scum, so that's my bad

[cowsloveSushirolls]

i'll admit that i'm choosing a weird hill to die on but given my own observations and the fact that the most comprehensive case on him is based on a pattern from past games the townread just stays until i get that reading done

[StrangeMatter]

Also, Gamma and Ythan please explain why you voted Salsa again?

Like you can't still read the same posts we could all see yesterday.

So, are you going to respond to this by the way? Yes, I have read the same posts that we could all see yesterday, and I want to hear it from you again.