Gypyx's Mini Normal Review, May 2021

[implosion]

Oh I guess I lied in the queue, this is actually a 12?

Subject: Normal Queue Thread (Players and Mods)

/in to mod a self-designed mini

associated setup :

Town Motion Detector
Town Loud Follower
Town Novice Loud Neapolitan
Town Lazy Roleblocker
VT*5


Mafia Informed Visitor (knows the setup)
Mafia Goon *2

public info : mafia knows the setup

daytalk by default, no multitasking

[implosion]

Primary: mastina
Secondary: Ircher

[Gypyx]

hey so, i wanted to try my hand at those "scum knows the setup" sorta things, i'm not sure how big of an advantage it gives scum tbh so it might not be the best

[mastina]

If this were 13p with 6 VTs I'd actually be inclined to pass it as-is (tho I'd like Ircher to confirm my thoughts that the OP as a 13-player is in the balanced range), but if the OP is not a typo and this is indeed a 12p setup with 5 VTs I'd call it rather notably scumsided thanks to the lost town member.

[Gypyx]

yeah this was intended as a 12P

thought it could allow the roleblocker to have some pretty good award for guessing correctly, even if scum manages to get away from the guilty

but i could totally add a VT if that's needed

[Ircher]

I would be a little concerned about this setup. I think that scum knowing the entire setup from the start is a strong power for scum to have, and this is exacerbated by the fact that town's investigative roles are loud here. It would not be too hard for scum to use that information to easily kill them, especially since people have a habit of claiming this kind of stuff (like with receiving fruit from fruit vendors). From a power perspective, town's roles are mostly solid, but not super strong: the roleblocker is net positive but also has a high chance of blocking town roles (and is generally seen as a "scummy" role from a claims perspective.) Followers don't realy generate clears; they're better at getting guilties until late in the game. The neapolitan is a solid role, but it takes time to get acting, and by the time it has some clears, it might already be dead. I think that given scum's power here, town could use a little extra. I would suggest dropping novice from the neapolitan.

[Gypyx]

I would be a little concerned about this setup. I think that scum knowing the entire setup from the start is a strong power for scum to have, and this is exacerbated by the fact that town's investigative roles are loud here. It would not be too hard for scum to use that information to easily kill them, especially since people have a habit of claiming this kind of stuff (like with receiving fruit from fruit vendors). From a power perspective, town's roles are mostly solid, but not super strong: the roleblocker is net positive but also has a high chance of blocking town roles (and is generally seen as a "scummy" role from a claims perspective.) Followers don't realy generate clears; they're better at getting guilties until late in the game. The neapolitan is a solid role, but it takes time to get acting, and by the time it has some clears, it might already be dead. I think that given scum's power here, town could use a little extra. I would suggest dropping novice from the neapolitan.

well, considering that scum knows the setup, there's a few things that are wrong here imho

- given that the scumteam most likely has low / no power on top of the info (from a player perspective) a roleblocker claim isn't necessarily scummier as scum most likely doesn't have one

- same reasoning for the follower, seeing actions being performed is more likely consisting in a clear (especially the RBer imo)

- same reasoning goes for loud, players knowing that scum knows the setup should discourage them from claiming their visits because it would (of course they don't know there's 2 loud roles) give scum the info of who they've been targeted by

and welp, in the end if you think that's not enough i could drop the novice yeah, but what do you think about mastina's suggestion of turning this in a 13p?

[Ircher]

My feedback was with the assumption it is 13p. At 12p, I would not pass it because evens disadvantage town to a large extent, and there isn't a good way to get back to odds in this setup.

- same reasoning goes for loud, players knowing that scum knows the setup should discourage them from claiming their visits because it would (of course they don't know there's 2 loud roles) give scum the info of who they've been targeted by

This may be true in theory, but in practice, people have a long history of either 1) not noticing this information 2) forgetting this information or 3) not realizing the implications of this information that I wouldn't rely on this being the case. Perhaps people would be a little more conservative than usual, but I would still expect loud visits to end up claimed at least a third of the time.

I think you are right about the follower here. It would be a little stronger than I was thinking, but not significantly so.

Your assumption about the roleblocker being seen as town is easily thwarted by the fact that scum knows the setup. They can find a way to make a good claim that fits with the rest. (Obviously, this is more of a matter during Lim-Lo as in other cases, it probably leads to a 1 for 1 trade to make a counterclaim, but the point still stands.) Aside from that, the main power from knowing the setup is being able to fake claim effectively. This setup lends itself well to scum fake claims. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but when you add that the setup makes it easier to find PRs, it does becomes a rather powerful utility to know the setup.

Scum can also just kill the follower to prevent their fake claim from unraveling, so the follower would have to catch them before then.

[Gypyx]

hmmm, i see where you're coming from on that one, that makes sense

anyways, i had another change idea that i'd like to ask for y'all opinion's on, basically, it would be to give one of the existing TPRs a 1-shot Bulletproof, could this work too? (idea just sounds pretty neat to me)

otherwise i'd be fine with +1 VT and remove the novice modifier for the record

[mastina]

anyways, i had another change idea that i'd like to ask for y'all opinion's on, basically, it would be to give one of the existing TPRs a 1-shot Bulletproof, could this work too? (idea just sounds pretty neat to me)

Balance-wise this might work but even if the scum know the setup, I don't see this being anything other than incredibly frustrating if the BP is on any of the investigatives and incredibly worthless if the BP is on the roleblocker.

Which is to say: the roleblocker being BP doesn't actually boost the town power at all (the scum don't want to kill the rb here anyway), but any of the investigatives having a 1x bp makes the game more frustrating for the scum.

Would again like Ircher's thoughts on this tho.

[Ircher]

Yeah, I don't think adding a bulletproof to any of the roles is a good idea. Generally speaking, scum want to be able to easily neutralize investigatives when they find them because to do otherwise can cost them the game. Not having that power will make scum feel like they lack agency and be incredibly frustrated postgame. Putting it on the roleblocker is probably fine since it cannot catch the last scum, and I think it does lead to a slight boost for town depending on who rands the role. (Not being able to be killed can be a big perk by itself.) That said, I don't think this is a kind of setup that meshes well with a bulletproof role.

[Gypyx]

alright so

Motion Detector
Loud Follower
Loud Neapolitan
Lazy Roleblocker
Vt*6

Informed Visitor
Goon * 2

we're good with that?

[mastina]

I am good with that setup, yes.

[Gypyx]

i assume ircher is good too so i'll get on role PMs

[Gypyx]

Town Motion Detector

Welcome ! You are a

Town Motion Detector

Each night, you may target someone, if they performed any action and/or anyone else performed an action on them, you will be informed that motion was detected on your target

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, you may find the game thread here

You detected motion on [PLAYER]

You didn't detect motion on [PLAYER]

You received no result, your action failed

Town Loud Follower

Welcome ! You are a

Town Loud Follower

each night, you may target someone, you will learn the NAR classification of any action that they perform, the NAR classification of normal roles can be found here

Additionally, any player you target will be informed that you targeted them

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, you may find the game thread here

[PLAYER] perfomed a [Miscalenious / Manipulative / Investigating / Killing] action

[PLAYER] didn't perform any action

[FOLLOWER] targeted you this night

Town Loud Neapolitan

Welcome ! You are a

Town Loud Neapolitan

each night, you may target someone, you will be informed if your target is a

Vanilla Townie

or not

Additionally, any player you target will be informed that you targeted them

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, you may find the game thread here

[PLAYER] is a

Vanila Townie

[PLAYER] is not a

Vanila Townie

Town Lazy Roleblocker

Welcome ! You are a

Town Lazy Roleblocker

You may each night target someone, any actions that this person tries to perform will be prevented, this action may be used only if there are at least 2 anti-town players alive at the start of the night

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, you may find the game thread here

Vanilla Townie

Welcome ! You are a

Vanilla Townie

You posess no ability other than your voice and your vote

Your Goal is to eliminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

Mafia Informed Visitor

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Informed Visitor

You are a member of the mafia, along with Player and Player, the mafia PT is here, each night, you may also chose to be the one performing the factional nightkill

You know that the setup contains the following roles :

Spoiler:

Town Motion Detector
Town Loud Follower
Town Loud Neapolitan
Town Lazy Roleblocker
VT*6
Mafia Informed Visitor (knows the setup)
Mafia Goon *2

this information will be redacted upon your flip

Each night, you may target someone, this action won't have any specific effect other than visiting

You win if the mafia survives to see all threats to them dead, you may find the game thread here

Mafia Goon

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Goon

You are a member of the mafia, along with Player and Player, the mafia PT is here, each night, you may also chose to be the one performing the factional nightkill

You win if the mafia survives to see all threats to them dead, you may find the game thread here

[Ircher]

Win conditions are worded a bit unconventionally, but I think they still get the same point across. That said, the vanilla townie win condition is worded differently and should be updated to match the other pms. I didn't see any other issues.

[Gypyx]

oh right good catch, that's my old vt pm

also since it's getting done soon, implo, could i ask specifically for the public info of this game to be included in the signup post? i know that sometimes it's done and sometimes it's not, so would rather make sure it is

[Gypyx]

realized my Follower results are wrong also, correct possibilitie are : Blocking / Role Investigation / Action Investigation / Miscellaneous / Kill

[mastina]

Also the color for the VT role is different than the color for the PRs, would recommend fixing that.

You also are missing No Result pms for the follower and neapolitan.

So, would like a repost of the role pms/result pms with the fixed/updated results.

[Gypyx]

ah welp, it's just that rewriting the no result seems pretty useless to me but sure

[Gypyx]

Town Loud Follower

Welcome ! You are a

Town Loud Follower

each night, you may target someone, you will learn the NAR classification of any action that they perform, the NAR classification of normal roles can be found here

Additionally, any player you target will be informed that you targeted them

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, you may find the game thread here

[PLAYER] perfomed a [Miscellaneous / Blocking / Role Investigation / Action Investigation / Kill] action

[PLAYER] didn't perform any action

[FOLLOWER] targeted you this night

Vanilla Townie

Welcome ! You are a

Vanilla Townie

You posess no power other that your voice and your vote

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, you may find the game thread here

[mastina]

Should be good!

[Gypyx]

alright, thanks

[Gypyx]

good for release